Does California and Marco polo share hydraulic rams/cylinders?

[EddySPalm]

The left hydraulic cylinder on my Marco Polo has started leaking from the seal where the piston rod exits the "barrel". The cylinder looks strikingly similar to the one used on Californias, and if it is, I would have many more options to choose from when purchasing a new one. If it is not the same, my only option is a 1500 Euro replacement from the MB dealer.

So if anyone on this forum happens to know, I would highly appreciate any info.

Also, if anyone here has had service done to their cylinder, or know of someone else who's had it, I am eager to know the whereabouts and howabouts regarding this also...

Thanks in advance.

 

[Vagophile]

I suggest that you have a look at this thread: https://vwcaliforniaclub.com/threads/elevating-roof-issues-updates.38481/
@vbk1975 has done a lot of work on this and it seems as if you could be in luck if you know what you are looking for.

 

[westfalia]

Can you post a picture of the ram?

 

[EddySPalm]

Aaha ! That was really useful ! Especially the comment about so many vans/cabs using the same powerpacker family of hydraulics.

I have just been out to take some measurements and pictures of my cylinders, and I just have to ask you guys for a favour:
The stroke on mine is 28cm,and the total exposed piston rod length is 29.5cm
Can anyone, by any chance, check the stroke length of their cylinders ? And maybe compare the looks of them with my pictures ?
Again, any help would be much appreciated !







The picture with my finger in it was of the right side cylinder. It had a third sensor on it, but I don't know what it's for

 

[westfalia]

I cant measure my ram at the moment but it looks
very similar, although the length might be more than the Cali one.

The wiring looks to have more than the Cali too.
Have you asked on the Marco polo forum?

 

[EddySPalm]

I have asked on the facebook group of Marco Polo Owners, the one derived from the forum. Unfortunately there is very little activity and even less knowledge amongst us MP owners.

There is one sensor on both ends on the cylinder that I need. The cabling looks a little messy, maybe that's why it looks to be more? Is there only one sensor on yours ?

 

[westfalia]

Have you looked at this site?

New posts

www.marcopoloownersclub.com

My mate has got the same van, i can ask him if he has any
info on the rams.

 

[EddySPalm]

Yes, that's the site from which the facebook group I contacted derived, as mentionned above.

I have a thread on there as well, but no luck.

Right now I could actually use some help from here much more, as a new cylinder from MB is more or less out of the question.

 

[WelshGas]

Right now I could actually use some help from here much more, as a new cylinder from MB is more or less out of the question.

Is there a visible part number on the Marco Polo Ram?
Have you contacted Westfalia who do the conversions for Mercedes?
Neither MB or Westfalia would make the Hydraulic Rams, they would just buy them in from the primary manufacturer.

 

[EddySPalm]

I cannot see any part numbers, unfortunately.
Like stated in the above mentionned thread, it's clearly a system made by PowerPacker, I just need to know if the cylinders are the very same.
If the stroke length, attachment points and cutouts for the sensors are the same, I will take the chance to see if it fits.

I have not contacted Westfalia, I wouldn't even know where to start.

 

[vbk1975]

I believe the hydraulic system for the VW is sourced from a company called Power-Packer, i would say from the markings, pipe ids, sensors etc , the MP uses the same company.

Power-packer seems to do a number of basic cylinder designs, they seem use basic standard parts / design / concept and are widely used on convertibles cars, all be it convertibles normally have 4+ rams. The ones with the black sensors all seem to use an alloy extrusion and vary in length, with notches for the sensors. The number and location of the sensors varies car to car, esp. as convertibles also normally also have switches in the latches.

The Cali roof basically has a fully open / fully closed(locked) sensor on each ram, I assume the need to have sensors on both rams is due to the size of the roof and flex side to side means the rams can move at different speeds. Were as convertible roof rams tend to only have the sensors on one ram and assume the other ram is in the same position.

ref the extra sensor, On the Cali the roof stops going down after so many seconds and asks you to check the door is open, bed is down etc. It might be the MP does the same thing but actually uses an extra middle position to trigger that, (the cali does it regardless of roof position) note it is only on one side, so it probably isn't functionally critical.

It might be worth seeing if a Power-Packer service centre can service the ram, although I suspect they can't, but I am sure they will be able to tell you if there is a generic replacement, even if you have to notch the sensor slots out or they might be able to order one directly and by-pass the Merc mark-up.

A

 

[EddySPalm]

Thank you so much for your reply vbk,
I have contacted power-Packer Europe, seems to be based in the Netherlands, and hoping for a positive response..

I think you are right about the middle sensor.

Are you familiar enough with the rams on the cali to tell if there are any obvious differences between their rams and the MP's? You don't happen to have the opportunity to check?

I think my best bet is still to purchase cali rams, but i would need just the slightest sign that they are compatible.

 

[westfalia]

Here's some pictures of my spare one.

 

[EddySPalm]

Thank you so much Westfalia !
That has got to be the same one ?
I see that I have to remeasure the diameter of my extrusion though, I'll bring on the calipers after the kids have gone to bed.

 

[EddySPalm]

Well, kind of unexpected, but positive altogether, I got a really prompt reply from Power-Packer, and the guy really knew our vehicles well.
I'm just gonna post the whole thread here (read from bottom to top):


Hi Edward,

Thank you for the compliments, we are always trying to keep our users
(although they are not our direct customers) happy and satisfied with
our products.

Regarding your questions what the difference is between a
Mercedes-Benz (MB) cylinder and the VW cylinder, that are the
following characteristics:
- The diameter of the cylinder is different, the VW is slightly bigger
compared to the MB. This will cause you trouble with the build-in
position;
- Due to the fact that VW cylinder is bigger you will experience oil
shortage when operating the VW cylinder on the MB system;
- Rod-Ends are different between the VW and the MB. Even the MB left
and right rod-end are different but they can be changed if you have a
bit experience (which you will have is my feeling).

My advice is not to switch over to VW cylinders as you will experience
the problems described above and will have influence on the complete
movement of the roof.

Best Regards,
Xxxx

Hi Xxxx, thank you so much for your response. I did not expect such a
prompt nor detailed response!
If possible, would you let me know what the differences between the
California and Marco Polo are ? I know that the right hand side
cylinder on a Marco Polo has a third sensor location somewhere in the
middle, but besides that they really look identical to me.

Thanks again,
Best regards,
Edward

Den 2021-03-31 14, Xxxx wrote:

Dear Mr. Palm,

Thank you for sending in your request.

First of all the hydraulic system supplied for the MB Marco Polo is
not the same as we have supplied for the VW-Westfalia. These are not
interchangeable unfortunately.

The seals are unfortunately not interchangeable and you have to
replace the complete cylinder. These are available at the dealer or
at a "Cabrio-Camper" specialist, if any. Hereby the product codes you
are looking for:

MB Product ID

PPE Product ID

Description

Q900001506271

DCD8-104442-S

Cylinder Right

Q900001506274

DCD8-104570-S

Cylinder Left

Trust to have informed you sufficiently and I wish you a nice day!

Best Regards,

 

[westfalia]

Well, kind of unexpected, but positive altogether, I got a really prompt reply from Power-Packer, and the guy really knew our vehicles well.
I'm just gonna post the whole thread here (read from bottom to top):


Hi Edward,

Thank you for the compliments, we are always trying to keep our users
(although they are not our direct customers) happy and satisfied with
our products.

Regarding your questions what the difference is between a
Mercedes-Benz (MB) cylinder and the VW cylinder, that are the
following characteristics:
- The diameter of the cylinder is different, the VW is slightly bigger
compared to the MB. This will cause you trouble with the build-in
position;
- Due to the fact that VW cylinder is bigger you will experience oil
shortage when operating the VW cylinder on the MB system;
- Rod-Ends are different between the VW and the MB. Even the MB left
and right rod-end are different but they can be changed if you have a
bit experience (which you will have is my feeling).

My advice is not to switch over to VW cylinders as you will experience
the problems described above and will have influence on the complete
movement of the roof.

Best Regards,
Xxxx

Hi Xxxx, thank you so much for your response. I did not expect such a
prompt nor detailed response!
If possible, would you let me know what the differences between the
California and Marco Polo are ? I know that the right hand side
cylinder on a Marco Polo has a third sensor location somewhere in the
middle, but besides that they really look identical to me.

Thanks again,
Best regards,
Edward

Den 2021-03-31 14, Xxxx wrote:

Thanks for the update Eddy, now we know.
Same kind of system but no interchangeable parts.

Very good of the chap to give you the info though, so, basically once a
ram has blown a seal its buggered and you need a new one.

 

[EddySPalm]

Thanks for the update Eddy, now we know.
Same kind of system but no interchangeable parts.

Very good of the chap to give you the info though, so, basically once a
ram has blown a seal its buggered and you need a new one.

Yep.
With me, things are looking a little brighter. After I noticed there had been a leak, I've topped up the system and bled it, and it's been working perfectly since.
I'm thinking the seal has shrunk and become hard during the really cold temperatures this winter, causing a leak. Now that the weather is warmer, it's expanded again, and seals up well.

For sure it is time to change it, but at least I have bought myself some time to source one either second hand or from somewhere who can dodge the MB markup.

Happy easter everyone, thanks for all your help.

 

[westfalia]

Yep.
With me, things are looking a little brighter. After I noticed there had been a leak, I've topped up the system and bled it, and it's been working perfectly since.
I'm thinking the seal has shrunk and become hard during the really cold temperatures this winter, causing a leak. Now that the weather is warmer, it's expanded again, and seals up well.

For sure it is time to change it, but at least I have bought myself some time to source one either second hand or from somewhere who can dodge the MB markup.

Happy easter everyone, thanks for all your help.

One last thing Eddy, what oil did you use to top it up.
The recommended oil for the Cali is expensive, just wondering
what the recommendation is for the Marco Polo.

Here is our one.

 

[EddySPalm]

Yeah the original oil was expensive,and I had to do a little research to find an alternative, though when you know what to look for, it was easy, and my nearest auto shop had an alternative:
I got the part number for the oil from MB, namely 001 989 2403 13 (where 13 at the end only refers to a certain container size, 1L in this case).
I googled it and found that alternatives satisfying the MB 345.0 standard was compliant (https://bevo.mercedes-benz.com/bevolisten/345.0_en.html).
From there it was just a matter of finding an oil with this designation on it. In this case it is clearly an oil specifically for MB, but it was very cheap, at about 20euro pr liter.
The oil is green, and I also had confirmed from the MB dealer that it is the very same oil as is used as power steering fluid for most MB's.