Roof jammed whist on holiday

Fatfranky · May 13, 2021

I wonder if anyone can help, I'm currently on the west coast of scotland in my 2007 california

All was well till this morning, we'd woken up but were still lying in the upper bed when there was a loud clunk from the L/H roof support. Subsequent investigation showed that the hydraulic ram seemed disconnected from the supports. I have no tools with me so could not remove the ram covers but could grab hold of the pop top shell and manually raise and lower it.

I spent some time lowering the roof with the switch and have eventually got it down but the right side is latched down and the left side is not, but the part of the mechanism that locks the roof is in the locked position and I cannot get it to lock.

When I try to raise or lower the roof the hydraulic motor does not operate, there is just a clicking from the relay.

There is a pop top icon flashing but even when I reset this and try again the same thing happens

It's like the roof has got into a confused state where it thinks it's both open and closed so will not do either function.

Can anyone offer any advice, I have no tools so advice on which tools I need to buy

In order of what I would like to achieve

Firstly I would like to open roof as I've left my phone up there

Secondly if I have to manually secure it if have to buy a ratchet strap or some such

Thirdly any ideas as to the fault? I can investigate better when I get home

Loz · May 13, 2021

I think you need to release the hydraulic relief screw that might allow you to push the roof up and down.

flying banana · May 13, 2021

As loz says. So you know how to do that? My guess . Sounds like the ball joint that connects one end of the ram has popped off. But I can't remember how the rams are attached now. You only need to undo one screw to get the cover off the ram.it will be Allen key or torx bit. Wedge the roof up with wood. Also you should have a tie down kit on board (funny plastic things you probably thought what they were for. So shouldn't need the ratchet strap. If it's missing don't drive like that. If you use a ratchet strap protect your paint where it contacts the edges of the bus. Use rubber Matt's. Dish wash sponges . Anything . Once fastened down stick to low speeds . Under 50mph . That should be easy where you are. Try vw in scotland . Inverness. Aberdeen. Edinburgh. For some assistance

Fatfranky · May 13, 2021

Thanks for the advice guys

Since I posted my first message, Mrs. Fatfranky got bored and started sweeping the floor and carpets and found a large screwdriver under the passenger seat!! Result!!

@Loz I've tried releasing the screw but the mechanism has a sort of "hook" that locks the roof down and I cannot raise the roof without unlocking this! Any ideas??

@flying banana from recollection the covers were splined bits (are they called tri square?) Which of course are the most difficult to come by! Local hardware shop had bit sets with torque and Allen heads but no splined

Please keep any more advice coming

Loz · May 13, 2021

Not for the feint hearted but you could energise the relay that operates the pump directly..

Fatfranky · May 13, 2021

Ok

Working on the basis that a picture is worth 1000 words

These images are from the unlocked left hand side, it would appear that the rod should lock under the black plastic lip. I'm assuming this is what's happened on the right hand side and it's why I cant open it.

Fatfranky · May 13, 2021

Loz said:
Not for the feint hearted but you could energise the relay that operates the pump directly..

Any ideas how to do this?

flying banana · May 13, 2021

I thought the hook on the roof hooks into the scissor mechanism and not the ram?

Fatfranky · May 13, 2021

flying banana said:
I thought the hook on the roof hooks into the scissor mechanism and not the ram?

Yes! I'd probably agree but either way I need to unhook it to move things on.

Anyone know how to release this in my circumstances

Thanks

TripleBee · May 14, 2021

Try putting 12V directly to the motor of the hydraulic pump. Or -12V (reverse polarity). That way you overrule a broken roof sensor.

Once you have the roof open, you can check for problems?

Loz · May 14, 2021

Fatfranky said:
Any ideas how to do this?

As @TripleBee suggests remove the trim in the headlining that houses the camper control unit to get to the pump control module up there.
Remove the 32pin plug from the unit and apply 12v to the black and red wires (pins 27/28) and the pump will operate in one direction, reverse the wires to run the pump the other way.
You can achieve this by making 2 jumper wires and link across the plug.

and reverse

Fatfranky · May 14, 2021

TripleBee said:
Try putting 12V directly to the motor of the hydraulic pump. Or -12V (reverse polarity). That way you overrule a broken roof sensor.

Once you have the roof open, you can check for problems?

That's probably the best plan

I actually carry a small 12v battery and various power cables so should be able to cobble something together

Can anyone offer any advice on accessing g the motor connections?

Fatfranky · May 14, 2021

Thanks Loz beat me to it

Loz · May 14, 2021

Fatfranky said:
Thanks Loz beat me to it

Updated the post with the links shown

flying banana · May 14, 2021

Fatfranky said:
Yes! I'd probably agree but either way I need to unhook it to move things on.

Anyone know how to release this in my circumstances

Thanks

I think the natural action of the scissor as the roof rises unhooks it

Fatfranky · May 26, 2021

Thanks to all who assisted with this, realised I had not updated my progress, which will be useful to anyone in future who is looking for help and reads this post.

item 1 I needed to retrieve my phone, I was able to do this by raising the unlocked left hand front corner and supporting it about 8” open, I then was able to pull out the upper mattress as I find the lower bed less comfy and had not not brought the topper that usually goes on the lower bed. I was then able to squeeze my hand up through the gap between the headliner and the roof aperture at the rear (knowing pretty much where my phone was) and pull phone back through gap

item 2 secure roof

I’d called at a hardware store (not very common in north west Scotland) and picked up some torx keys (sort of like cranked Allen keys but with torx ends) and a pair of webbing straps ( not ratchet type but the type with none return clips that you squeeze to release) I’d checked the toolkit and there was no roof securing straps.

I then set to removing the roof centre binnacle (camper control panel, courtesy lights etc) and by removing the sun visor inner clips (and breaking one) I was able to lower the motor and unplug the motor power cable. I then connected 12v and only got a sort of clunk from the motor, I reversed the polarity and again just a clunk. Thinking perhaps the motor had packed up I thought what if I remove the motor from the pump unit and see if I can spin the pump by hand? ( an old fitter told me many years ago that you could often spin a motor driven hydraulic pump by hand and although it will take a lot lot lot longer will still do the job)

I removed the bolts holding the electric motor to the pump and was ready to remove, when I thought “will hydraulic oil spill out?” Mrs. Fatfranky had gone for a walk to escape the dockyard language so I thought I best wait for her return to hold a rescepticle just in case.

In the meantime I began looking at the unlocked left hand corner, and wondered “ if I release the hydraulic pressure could I loop one of my straps round the bar that should be locked under the plastic wedge and pull forwards will I be able to pull it over the wedge?” I tried and hey presto it worked and locked quite firmly, I then re-tightened the bleed screw to maintain whatever pressure was in there.

for the journey home I put the strap around the roof and through the door apertures as a belt and braces measure though I was confident that it was securely locked

next step is to investigate what is broken, I’ll update when I have

Fatfranky · Jul 14, 2021

Ok update time

Due to some issues with her daily driver Mrs Fatfranky has been using the Cali as her daily so I was unable to tackle this till recently, first job was to remove the pump and find out what was wrong. I removed the centre binnacle again and was able to lower the pump through the gap and remove the electric motor, to answer my own earlier question a small amount of oil did leak out, but I had a receptacle ready for this. I discovered that the motor span fine but the pump was locked solid, I then removed the hydraulic lines and removed the pump, I’ll come back to the pump later.

Next job was to release and raise the roof, my ingenious solution was to attach a Schrader valve to an airline (I just used a 12v tyre inflator compressor) and held the hydraulic line into the base of the schrader valve to pressurise the ram, this worked a charm on the right hand ram but not the left.

I then had to fathom a way of releasing the l/h mechanism, what I did in the end was raise and support the right hand side, then pull out the bottom rubber that retains the tent bellows along the front, working my way round the left hand corner to expose the mechanism from inside the van. I was then able to remove the circlip and knock out the pin that holds the top of the longer arm to the roof cap, this allowed me to raise and support the roof and access the left hand ram.

Since the initial problem in Scotland to stripping down I’d done some reading on the forum and suspected that the back of the ram had failed, and this is exactly what had happened. My van is a 2007 model and I believe earlier vans suffered from this problem.

Next was the cost of parts, I initially priced them with VW, I’ve left the piece of paper at work but from recollection they were as follows

Ram £405
Oil (1L). £61. (See below)
Pump. £1350. ( that’s not a typo! Thirteen hundred quid)

I did a google search and up popped a company called LLL parts who seem to specialise in supplying genuine parts presumably sourced in Europe , they could do the ram for €288 (£242) and the oil for €84 (£71)

I decided to order the ram from them using PayPal so I have some security, but the oil I could get cheaper from VW........................... till I went to order it and I was told I’d been misquoted and that it was £81, I managed to haggle some discount (I’d already placed the LLL order) and got it for £79, so those 2 bits are en route.

Now back to the pump, as I said earlier it was locked solid, when I removed it the oil level in the reservoir was very low, so I suspect it had run dry, losing its oil through the broken ram

To describe the workings the motor has a sort of plastic spider on its shaft and this engages with a drive pin on the pump. I was able to get it spinning just with finger pressure. I then made up a little tool to turn the rotor and pull it from the shaft simultaneously, the rotor has a central brass bush, which had a small score in it. I have access to a lathe so put the rotor in and got some super fine wet and dry wrapped round an undersized shaft to clean up the bore just by hand. By trial and error I got it spinning freely.

I then filled the reservoir with hydraulic oil (not VW stuff but I thought it would be ok for testing) put plenty of oil on the rotor, refitted motor and powered it up, it span well but produced no pressure, after about 5 seconds the motor slowed, it turned out the rotor had nipped up despite being well oiled.

I intend to have one last stab at repairing the pump, but I’m baffled how it works. As I said earlier there is a drive pin in the rotor, the rotor is mounted on a shaft in an eccentric housing with a ball bearing race round the outside, there are 3 radial pins that run on the bearing but I don’t understand how this creates pressure

Does anyone have any experience of these pumps and could shed some light?

I do have some photos on my phone and I’ll post them up shortly

Edit to add, if the hydraulic lines are disconnected, when you expand and contract the rams they will squirt oil some impressive distance, if the hydraulic lines are still connected to the rams but disconnected at the pump, the oil will squirt all over your interior.

My solution was to use a ziplock freezer bag over the end of the lines , which also catches any residual drips when it’s all drained

Fatfranky · Jul 14, 2021

Photos as promised

flying banana · Jul 14, 2021

Fatfranky said:
Ok update time

Due to some issues with her daily driver Mrs Fatfranky has been using the Cali as her daily so I was unable to tackle this till recently, first job was to remove the pump and find out what was wrong. I removed the centre binnacle again and was able to lower the pump through the gap and remove the electric motor, to answer my own earlier question a small amount of oil did leak out, but I had a receptacle ready for this. I discovered that the motor span fine but the pump was locked solid, I then removed the hydraulic lines and removed the pump, I’ll come back to the pump later.

Next job was to release and raise the roof, my ingenious solution was to attach a Schrader valve to an airline (I just used a 12v tyre inflator compressor) and held the hydraulic line into the base of the schrader valve to pressurise the ram, this worked a charm on the right hand ram but not the left.

I then had to fathom a way of releasing the l/h mechanism, what I did in the end was raise and support the right hand side, then pull out the bottom rubber that retains the tent bellows along the front, working my way round the left hand corner to expose the mechanism from inside the van. I was then able to remove the circlip and knock out the pin that holds the top of the longer arm to the roof cap, this allowed me to raise and support the roof and access the left hand ram.

Since the initial problem in Scotland to stripping down I’d done some reading on the forum and suspected that the back of the ram had failed, and this is exactly what had happened. My van is a 2007 model and I believe earlier vans suffered from this problem.

Next was the cost of parts, I initially priced them with VW, I’ve left the piece of paper at work but from recollection they were as follows

Ram £405
Oil (1L). £61. (See below)
Pump. £1350. ( that’s not a typo! Thirteen hundred quid)

I did a google search and up popped a company called LLL parts who seem to specialise in supplying genuine parts presumably sourced in Europe , they could do the ram for €288 (£242) and the oil for €84 (£71)

I decided to order the ram from them using PayPal so I have some security, but the oil I could get cheaper from VW........................... till I went to order it and I was told I’d been misquoted and that it was £81, I managed to haggle some discount (I’d already placed the LLL order) and got it for £79, so those 2 bits are en route.

Now back to the pump, as I said earlier it was locked solid, when I removed it the oil level in the reservoir was very low, so I suspect it had run dry, losing its oil through the broken ram

To describe the workings the motor has a sort of plastic spider on its shaft and this engages with a drive pin on the pump. I was able to get it spinning just with finger pressure. I then made up a little tool to turn the rotor and pull it from the shaft simultaneously, the rotor has a central brass bush, which had a small score in it. I have access to a lathe so put the rotor in and got some super fine wet and dry wrapped round an undersized shaft to clean up the bore just by hand. By trial and error I got it spinning freely.

I then filled the reservoir with hydraulic oil (not VW stuff but I thought it would be ok for testing) put plenty of oil on the rotor, refitted motor and powered it up, it span well but produced no pressure, after about 5 seconds the motor slowed, it turned out the rotor had nipped up despite being well oiled.

I intend to have one last stab at repairing the pump, but I’m baffled how it works. As I said earlier there is a drive pin in the rotor, the rotor is mounted on a shaft in an eccentric housing with a ball bearing race round the outside, there are 3 radial pins that run on the bearing but I don’t understand how this creates pressure

Does anyone have any experience of these pumps and could shed some light?

I do have some photos on my phone and I’ll post them up shortly

It sounds like the pump works similar to the wankel engine using the eccentric shape to suck and push the oil out as the 3 pins race around inside the egg shape. There will be a low pressure side at the largest side of the elipse from the reservoir and the high pressure will be the small side of the elipse where the oil is pushed out. I am just guessing here using my knowledge and your description. Good luck