T5 2.5 TDI 174 - My first California?

[tvagon]

Hi!
I'm new to the forum.Looks like a good place!
Please redirect me to correct forum if this happens to be out of place.

tl;dr
-buying my first car and first Cali
-specs: 2007, 2.5 TDI 174hp, 172 tkm (107 000 miles), manual, service history: not perfect, condition: mint, Polyroof hardtop
-seller is asking for 23 000e
-walk away / take my money ?

I have never owned a car, but been dreaming of Cali for quite a time. I'm looking for a reliable holiday companion for many years to come. Hitting maybe 20 tkm a year. Not afraid of services nor changing parts. Changing full transmission I would rather skip.

Few days ago I surprisingly encountered a nicely kept Cali near from where I live. I'm from North Europe and these things are not common on these latitudes like some folks already have mentioned here.
Specs:
- 2007 2.5 TDI 174hp, manual
- 172 000 km
- Originally from Germany, brought to the North 2017 (only one owner here)
- Polyroof hardtop installed (not sure when)
- Service history (from booklet): 30 tkm done, 60 tkm done, 140 tkm done, 170 tkm done
- Gap between 60 and 140 is nothing to brag about. Can only hope that something has been done, right?
- Not all are VW authorized, does it matter?
- No idea what oil is used, most likely not always the same (?)
- Condition to eye: perfect (like outrageously good)

Have not yet had time for test drive, but when I yesterday saw it and walked through I was impressed for the condition. Literally no rust anywhere. Features I had time to test were all working. Despite heating/webasto did only wake up for few moments and then die. Not sure if this was due to standing still for months/batteries dead/something else. Also did not have time to check the cook and water system. All in all, it gave an impression that love has been given.

Not to overlook the exterior condition I'm more interested about the condition, reliability and life span of the motor. Have I understood correctly that 2007 174hp TDI is not suffering the problems found in later version 180hp? Also, is there something I'd need to be aware of considering the particular model and motor?

Any comments and thoughts would be appreciated. Thank you for reading!

 

[2into1]

The engine is strong and reliable, if a little noisier than newer models. They suffer from exhaust gases getting into the cab so sniff for fumes. Curing the problem most probably needs a new exhaust manifold.
Is it an auto or manual gearbox? I know the autos can give some problems and are expensive to fix when they go wrong.
I love the Polyroof modification.
You will be barred from some big cities based on the euro class / age of the engine.

 

[steve_b]

>They suffer from exhaust gases getting into the cab so sniff for fumes. Curing the problem most probably needs a new exhaust manifold.

ah - that's interesting. I have a 130BHP 2.5 5 cylinder manual BNZ - is that the same engine but configured for less power - and if so is that an expensive fix ?

Thanks

 

[2into1]

>They suffer from exhaust gases getting into the cab so sniff for fumes. Curing the problem most probably needs a new exhaust manifold.

ah - that's interesting. I have a 130BHP 2.5 5 cylinder manual BNZ - is that the same engine but configured for less power - and if so is that an expensive fix ?

Thanks

I think the engine is very similar between the 130 (mine too) and the 174. The pre 2006 (non dpf) engines had a tubular, welded manifold that frequently cracked, and it was replaced in 2006 with a cast manifold that occasionally cracks, and warps, and pops studs!
An official manifold from vw is £600 and its a close to a full day's work to replace (turbo off etc). There are lots of cheaper manifolds of varying quality starting at £130.

They don't have timing belts so that's £400 every 4 years saved.

 

[larrylamb]

Literally no rust anywhere

I don't think i have ever seen a rusty T5, so no worries there.

 

[Eremita]

Sold mine at 210000 km, only because decided to shift to a Beach and got a really good offer. By the way, the only engine problem was a turbine issue at 140000 km and Egr valve. 2000 euro, then as new. As already said, no belt, so Euro saved. If you are not worried about city bans (quite a big problem in north italy), go for it. You’ll love it.
Can I ask you how much they ask? They keep high value, and if it’s high spec even more.

 

[tvagon]

The engine is strong and reliable, if a little noisier than newer models. They suffer from exhaust gases getting into the cab so sniff for fumes. Curing the problem most probably needs a new exhaust manifold.
Is it an auto or manual gearbox? I know the autos can give some problems and are expensive to fix when they go wrong.
I love the Polyroof modification.
You will be barred from some big cities based on the euro class / age of the engine.

Thank you @2into1 for the info. That one is manual. And Polyroof was indeed impressive.

Sniffin exhaust gases does not sound like a recommennable long term hobby. Is the issue so bad that people have got their manifolds changed?

City bans is a good notice! Did not pop into my mind. Most likely the trend is spreading. But luckily our use would be exploring nature more than cities.

 

[2into1]

Sniffin exhaust gases does not sound like a recommennable long term hobby. Is the issue so bad that people have got their manifolds changed?

It's just a weakness of the engines. Many won't suffer from it at all, but if you are test driving, be aware of it. The good thing is the work (if required) can be done anywhere and doesn't need to be an expensive vw garage.

 

[tvagon]

Sold mine at 210000 km, only because decided to shift to a Beach and got a really good offer. By the way, the only engine problem was a turbine issue at 140000 km and Egr valve. 2000 euro, then as new. As already said, no belt, so Euro saved. If you are not worried about city bans (quite a big problem in north italy), go for it. You’ll love it.
Can I ask you how much they ask? They keep high value, and if it’s high spec even more.

Thanks Eremita! Okay, 2000 euro is a proper amount. Are problems with turbine and EGR valve something which are round the corner for 2.5 TDI 174 this age and mileage?

Of course! Seller is asking for 23 000e. Would you mind to tell what you sold yours for?

 

[westfalia]

I think i am on manifold number 3.

There is an aftermarket one that is non-breakable.
23 sounds like a good deal, have you any pics.

 

[tvagon]

It's just a weakness of the engines. Many won't suffer from it at all, but if you are test driving, be aware of it. The good thing is the work (if required) can be done anywhere and doesn't need to be an expensive vw garage.

That is good to know, thanks! I'm most likely test driving this weekend. Will keep my nostrils open. Anything else I should be aware of? From somewhere I read that dual mass flywheel could be worn out with this mileage, depending on how it has been driven. Are there any indicators of this while driving or some other ways to get a picture of its condition?

 

[tvagon]

I think i am on manifold number 3.

There is an aftermarket one that is non-breakable.
23 sounds like a good deal, have you any pics.

Ouch, that is plenty, every time 500+ euros? Are you using those non-breakable or VW ones? And can I ask how much is your mileage, since you are driving the same engine?

Unfortunately I don't have pics. I try to remember to take few on weekend.

 

[tvagon]

What you people think overall:
-Like @westfalia mentioned the price is about in line with specs, mileage and age?
-Should I be worried for the service history black out? And is there any value to do some kind of condition check on VW or some other service house?

 

[westfalia]

You better sit down and pour yourself a large one for this.

272,269 kms at the moment although its the second engine,
the first one put its leg out of bed at a grand 225,000 kms
hole in a piston apparently due to a faulty dripping injector.

I had it tuned up at about 110,00 kms to 204 ps and i won't say
that I've hammered it but i do drive foot to the floor when the
autobahn permits.
Did this tuning thing knacker my engine, who knows.
One thing that im gonna do soon is to get my engine oil
analysed, it doesn't cost too much and from what ive heard they
can see if any metal particles are present, i.e. wearing parts in the motor.

Ive had mine from new and will keep it forever so the new motor
was a no brainer to me. Here she is.

 

[Big Ted]

I too have a 174 T5.
I posted a 6 month review of it here..(it may be if use?)

6 months after buying an 2008 Cali....

This week sees 6 months and 10k miles have passed since picking up Sinbad, so I thought I’d post my experience to date as I read many many posts ahead of our purchase so wanted to help share our journey. I now watch on and see many posts of new Cali’s ordered with excitement of the new purchases...

vwcaliforniaclub.com

Getting close to 12 months and I have no regrets.
A few mods and tweaks along the way, but really happy with the choice.
Sure there’s nicer toys on the t6.1, but I bet you’ll explore just the same and sleep just as well in an older Cali.
We lose things like warranties with the older models, but with the price of these becoming more affordable I just use my rainy day fund for any problems.
As westfalia did, we’d plough money into a replacement engine as needed and keep this van going forever.
Good luck with the viewing.
Obligatory photo...

 

[2into1]

and sleep just as well in an older Cali.

I think you'll sleep better.... I'm convinced the back seat got firmer as the years went by. My 06 T5 has a lovely soft back seat / bed.

 

[Eremita]

What you people think overall:
-Like @westfalia mentioned the price is about in line with specs, mileage and age?
-Should I be worried for the service history black out? And is there any value to do some kind of condition check on VW or some other service house?

- absolutely yes, seems a really good deal. i sold mine at 30000, very high spec, consider that all vana of same age/mileage last summer were at the same point (around 30k)
- no

 

[Oldskoolcali06]

I have a 2006 SE 174 that was purchased from this forum. It had a complete service history and one owner and has now covered 147K miles now with no issues. it is regularly serviced, correct oil etc. I have replaced a few things such as springs and shocks (for HR lowered ones) strut top hats, front subframe ( as it was pretty rusty!) and a few tidying up jobs. Its been super reliable! all the interior stuff works as well as a new T6.1 and we just pile in it with the dog, bikes, paddle boards and just go... its great!

test drive it, check it out as best you can and see if it works for you. Its easy to do those small mechanic jobs as its just a posh T5 van really...

 

[Oldskoolcali06]

 

[2into1]

View attachment 55340

Are those 18" steelies?

 

[Oldskoolcali06]

Yes... 18" Amarok steels.

 

[Benny]

Have to disagree with some of the comments above. These motors are not cheap or easy to work on and hence some of the service parts get neglected. As stated, the cam is operated by gears and not a cam belt and doesn't require servicing. However, the water pump does still need replacing at a similar interval to a cambelt and will probably cost around £500 to change. It is often ignored and can destroy the bottom end of your engine if it fails (speaking from experience). The right all is critical in the pre DPF models, but I this maybe less important for the later models (although not sure about this). The Cams fail quickly (especially with the wrong oil) and the injector bores wear due to a stupid design (only attached on one side). The gates couplings (similar to auxillary belts) are difficult to get to and often neglected. The oil seal on the power steering pump can fail and allow engine oil to mix with power steering fluid which will kill the pump and can damage the steering rack. You are better off looking for information on the T5 forum for potential issues with these motors. They are fantastic engines if properly maintained and will do massive miles (mine had done 390 000 miles with only a Cam and two injectors failing, and a gearbox). However, due to their scarcity, they are probably the most expensive engine (T5 or T6) to replace. They are also quite expensive on fuel.

They are noisy engines. You can find videos on youtube of what they should and shouldn't sound like. Check the power steering fluid, should be the same colour as the cap on the resevoir. If its black its contaminated. Check the steering at low revs/speed, should be smooth and quite. Check the colour of the engine oil, if its black it could be contaminated with water and/or diesel which will be expensive to fix. Check the AC freewheel if fitted.

Having said all of that, they are reliable when properly maintained and lovely to drive.

 

[tvagon]

You better sit down and pour yourself a large one for this.

272,269 kms at the moment although its the second engine,
the first one put its leg out of bed at a grand 225,000 kms
hole in a piston apparently due to a faulty dripping injector.

I had it tuned up at about 110,00 kms to 204 ps and i won't say
that I've hammered it but i do drive foot to the floor when the
autobahn permits.
Did this tuning thing knacker my engine, who knows.
One thing that im gonna do soon is to get my engine oil
analysed, it doesn't cost too much and from what ive heard they
can see if any metal particles are present, i.e. wearing parts in the motor.

Ive had mine from new and will keep it forever so the new motor
was a no brainer to me. Here she is.View attachment 55283

Way to go @westfalia and thanks for sharing. Sounds like dedication. She looks shiny! Engine oil analysis
is a good idea. Not sure if the seller lets me do that, but could always ask. Btw, is that bike rack handy, and can you open the back door when bikes installed? Maybe not working with Polyroof(?)
Toe hook installed Atera/Thule maybe the only solution.

 

[tvagon]

I too have a 174 T5.
I posted a 6 month review of it here..(it may be if use?)

6 months after buying an 2008 Cali....

This week sees 6 months and 10k miles have passed since picking up Sinbad, so I thought I’d post my experience to date as I read many many posts ahead of our purchase so wanted to help share our journey. I now watch on and see many posts of new Cali’s ordered with excitement of the new purchases...

vwcaliforniaclub.com

Getting close to 12 months and I have no regrets.
A few mods and tweaks along the way, but really happy with the choice.
Sure there’s nicer toys on the t6.1, but I bet you’ll explore just the same and sleep just as well in an older Cali.
We lose things like warranties with the older models, but with the price of these becoming more affordable I just use my rainy day fund for any problems.
As westfalia did, we’d plough money into a replacement engine as needed and keep this van going forever.
Good luck with the viewing.
Obligatory photo...
View attachment 55284

That was a good read, thanks @Big Ted! Needed support for hard decision. Sounds like it is a good fit for your family. Also double glazed windows sounds like a good thing especially on the northern latitudes. Have to check if this one has them or not. Also, how many miles you have covered and has your rainy day fund seen a lot of use?

 

[tvagon]

Have to disagree with some of the comments above. These motors are not cheap or easy to work on and hence some of the service parts get neglected. As stated, the cam is operated by gears and not a cam belt and doesn't require servicing. However, the water pump does still need replacing at a similar interval to a cambelt and will probably cost around £500 to change. It is often ignored and can destroy the bottom end of your engine if it fails (speaking from experience). The right all is critical in the pre DPF models, but I this maybe less important for the later models (although not sure about this). The Cams fail quickly (especially with the wrong oil) and the injector bores wear due to a stupid design (only attached on one side). The gates couplings (similar to auxillary belts) are difficult to get to and often neglected. The oil seal on the power steering pump can fail and allow engine oil to mix with power steering fluid which will kill the pump and can damage the steering rack. You are better off looking for information on the T5 forum for potential issues with these motors. They are fantastic engines if properly maintained and will do massive miles (mine had done 390 000 miles with only a Cam and two injectors failing, and a gearbox). However, due to their scarcity, they are probably the most expensive engine (T5 or T6) to replace. They are also quite expensive on fuel.

They are noisy engines. You can find videos on youtube of what they should and shouldn't sound like. Check the power steering fluid, should be the same colour as the cap on the resevoir. If its black its contaminated. Check the steering at low revs/speed, should be smooth and quite. Check the colour of the engine oil, if its black it could be contaminated with water and/or diesel which will be expensive to fix. Check the AC freewheel if fitted.

Having said all of that, they are reliable when properly maintained and lovely to drive.

Hi @Benny and thanks for writing! Since I'm quite novice with cars, I'm unfamiliar with many of those things.
Anyhow, I appreciate your comments and will definitely go find out more on T5 forum.
Also, if you have time and are willing write more, I would appreciate info where I can find power steering fluid, how can I check the color of the engine oil, and where is AC freewheel located and how should it look! Thanks!
Sounds like I need to check the van one more time.