Another Club Joker electrical issue

[Glenhyrst]

I would appreciate comments from the electrical wizards about the arrangements detailed below in my 6 months old Club Joker which runs counter to my expectations, but my knowledge on such matters is not advanced.

The cab 12v outlet bypasses the 12v main switch but is actually powered by the leisure batteries and not, as I expected, the starter battery.

The 12 volt socket in the back of the van is indeed isolated by the 12v main switch.

I know because, given that the starter battery voltage drops fairly quickly, rather than running an EHU and a separate cable to a charger to the starter battery, which as I have already determined, is not charged on EHU, I bought a plug which goes into the 12v cab socket and not only gives an indication of the battery state but through which I could charge the battery using a charger plugged into a 13amp socket in the van whilst on EHU.

For the reason obvious from the above, it did not charge the starter battery.

Furthermore, on a separate but related issue, the tracker software gives a voltage readout which surprisingly is the voltage of the leisure and not the starter battery.

 

[WelshGas]

I would appreciate comments from the electrical wizards about the arrangements detailed below in my 6 months old Club Joker which runs counter to my expectations, but my knowledge on such matters is not advanced.

The cab 12v outlet bypasses the 12v main switch but is actually powered by the leisure batteries and not, as I expected, the starter battery.

The 12 volt socket in the back of the van is indeed isolated by the 12v main switch.

I know because, given that the starter battery voltage drops fairly quickly, rather than running an EHU and a separate cable to a charger to the starter battery, which as I have already determined, is not charged on EHU, I bought a plug which goes into the 12v cab socket and not only gives an indication of the battery state but through which I could charge the battery using a charger plugged into a 13amp socket in the van whilst on EHU.

For the reason obvious from the above, it did not charge the starter battery.

Furthermore, on a separate but related issue, the tracker software gives a voltage readout which surprisingly is the voltage of the leisure and not the starter battery.

I gather your vehicle is based on the T6.1. I gather, on the T6.1, the dashboard socket seems to be powered by the Leisure battery on the California and Transporter fitted with 2nd battery.
Westfalia purchase the base vehicle from VW so probably purchased a base vehicle with 2nd battery to get the VW split charge system.
On the T6.1 the EHU mains charger does trickle charge the engine battery by design.
However on the T5.1 and T6 the engine battery is trickle charged, once Leisure Batteries are fully charged, but not by design. I presume Westfalia install their own EHU mains charger with different circuitry to VW , hence no charging of engine battery.
You could install a lead from engine battery side of the split charge relay with a suitable socket to connect to your mains charger. The split charge relay is under front passenger seat RHD. Charger +tve to engine battery +tve BUT charger -tve to chassis earth point , under seat base. Fit suitable fuse in charger lead related to charger output.

 

[yossarian]

I would appreciate comments from the electrical wizards about the arrangements detailed below in my 6 months old Club Joker which runs counter to my expectations, but my knowledge on such matters is not advanced.

The cab 12v outlet bypasses the 12v main switch but is actually powered by the leisure batteries and not, as I expected, the starter battery.

The 12 volt socket in the back of the van is indeed isolated by the 12v main switch.

I know because, given that the starter battery voltage drops fairly quickly, rather than running an EHU and a separate cable to a charger to the starter battery, which as I have already determined, is not charged on EHU, I bought a plug which goes into the 12v cab socket and not only gives an indication of the battery state but through which I could charge the battery using a charger plugged into a 13amp socket in the van whilst on EHU.

For the reason obvious from the above, it did not charge the starter battery.

Furthermore, on a separate but related issue, the tracker software gives a voltage readout which surprisingly is the voltage of the leisure and not the starter battery.

On the T6.1 California the special vehicle control unit (J608) closes the split charge relay when your EHU is plugged in. Thus all three batteries are charged together.

Westfalia have probably built the Joker on top of a 6.1 with the Special vehicle unit and factory fit second battery. Not sure about the 3rd battery.

You will need to try obtain a wiring diagram or at least a description from Westfalia if you want to do any sort reasonable fault finding.

 

[Glenhyrst]

On the T6.1 California the special vehicle control unit (J608) closes the split charge relay when your EHU is plugged in. Thus all three batteries are charged together.

Westfalia have probably built the Joker on top of a 6.1 with the Special vehicle unit and factory fit second battery. Not sure about the 3rd battery.

You will need to try obtain a wiring diagram or at least a description from Westfalia if you want to do any sort reasonable fault finding.

My experience so far of Westfalia is that answering emails is not high on their priority list.
And I had an autoelectrician glance at the vehicle and declare that without a wiring diagram, there was little he had to offer.
It seems a case of take it or leave it as thus far, the dealer seems in the dark too.
One day I hope to use the vehicle!

 

[sidepod]

I would appreciate comments from the electrical wizards about the arrangements detailed below in my 6 months old Club Joker which runs counter to my expectations, but my knowledge on such matters is not advanced.

The cab 12v outlet bypasses the 12v main switch but is actually powered by the leisure batteries and not, as I expected, the starter battery.

The 12 volt socket in the back of the van is indeed isolated by the 12v main switch.

I know because, given that the starter battery voltage drops fairly quickly, rather than running an EHU and a separate cable to a charger to the starter battery, which as I have already determined, is not charged on EHU, I bought a plug which goes into the 12v cab socket and not only gives an indication of the battery state but through which I could charge the battery using a charger plugged into a 13amp socket in the van whilst on EHU.

For the reason obvious from the above, it did not charge the starter battery.

Furthermore, on a separate but related issue, the tracker software gives a voltage readout which surprisingly is the voltage of the leisure and not the starter battery.

Well if you insist on a half arsed job and wish to charge your engine battery via a cigarette lighter style plug in, all you need to do is wire the female half of that unit to the engine battery, stuff it in the glove box and you’re done.

Pull the cab socket out and remove the wiring. Make it safe. Re wire it to the ACC side of your ignition switch.

The tracker, being powered from the leisure battery will obviously only monitor that voltage.
Probably better that way as the leisure batteries will last longer than the engine battery, not that you’ll ever get it back if it’s nicked.

Don’t need a wiring diagram for that!

 

[ArunAlec]

I gather your vehicle is based on the T6.1. I gather, on the T6.1, the dashboard socket seems to be powered by the Leisure battery on the California and Transporter fitted with 2nd battery.
Westfalia purchase the base vehicle from VW so probably purchased a base vehicle with 2nd battery to get the VW split charge system.
On the T6.1 the EHU mains charger does trickle charge the engine battery by design.
However on the T5.1 and T6 the engine battery is trickle charged, once Leisure Batteries are fully charged, but not by design. I presume Westfalia install their own EHU mains charger with different circuitry to VW , hence no charging of engine battery.
You could install a lead from engine battery side of the split charge relay with a suitable socket to connect to your mains charger. The split charge relay is under front passenger seat RHD. Charger +tve to engine battery +tve BUT charger -tve to chassis earth point , under seat base. Fit suitable fuse in charger lead related to charger output.

Agree,
Recently did a check to see if my understanding was correct, that on EHU the leisure and starter batteries get charged.
Off EHU - 12v sockets (fed from leisure batteries) and starter battery all reading around 12.2v
On EHU - Sockets & starter around 13.5v.

 

[Glenhyrst]

Agree,
Recently did a check to see if my understanding was correct, that on EHU the leisure and starter batteries get charged.
Off EHU - 12v sockets (fed from leisure batteries) and starter battery all reading around 12.2v
On EHU - Sockets & starter around 13.5v.

But on mine, 30hrs on EHU raised the leisure batteries to 13.0v and the starter battery stayed at 11.8v.
My meandering around trying to determine whether a) there is a fault, b) this is by design, c) the starter battery doesn't receive a charge until the leisures "overflow", and I still don't know the answer.
Although I suspect the starter battery is entirely dependent on the alternator and/or a direct charger hooked up to it.
My half arsed attempt to just take 1 cable out to the van by using the EHU to power a charger to the starter battery at the same time as charging the leisures, by using the 12v cigarette lighter in the cab and only when this had the square root of zero effect on the starter battery did it become appartent that the damn thing was wired to the leisures. And bypassing the house 12v isolation switch.
Also that the tracking is supplied by the leisure batteries. Not a problem, just ran counter to my expectations.
So, back to the original reason for my post - should I expect my Joker's starter battery be charging on EHU? And if Wandahome don't know and Westfalia don't answer enquiries, then I guess I will have to live with it and have my Ctek permanently connected.

 

[WelshGas]

But on mine, 30hrs on EHU raised the leisure batteries to 13.0v and the starter battery stayed at 11.8v.
My meandering around trying to determine whether a) there is a fault, b) this is by design, c) the starter battery doesn't receive a charge until the leisures "overflow", and I still don't know the answer.
Although I suspect the starter battery is entirely dependent on the alternator and/or a direct charger hooked up to it.
My half arsed attempt to just take 1 cable out to the van by using the EHU to power a charger to the starter battery at the same time as charging the leisures, by using the 12v cigarette lighter in the cab and only when this had the square root of zero effect on the starter battery did it become appartent that the damn thing was wired to the leisures. And bypassing the house 12v isolation switch.
Also that the tracking is supplied by the leisure batteries. Not a problem, just ran counter to my expectations.
So, back to the original reason for my post - should I expect my Joker's starter battery be charging on EHU? And if Wandahome don't know and Westfalia don't answer enquiries, then I guess I will have to live with it and have my Ctek permanently connected.

Do you have 2 x leisure batteries?
If yes, are both the same amps?
If no, is one of the batteries under the front passenger seat?
If yes, is it a Varta 75/85 amp agm battery?
If yes then that is the VW OEM 2nd battery fitted.
That battery will be charged by the VW split charge relay and will also power the dashboard socket and the Eberspacher diesel parking heater if fitted by VW. There would be a sticker on drivers B pillar if that is the case.

Westfalia seems to have fitted their own mains powered charger and a second leisure battery in parallel with the VW leisure battery. Both batteries will charge from mains charger or alternator.
All the habitation electrics are probably connected to a Westfalia fusebox powered by a connection to the Westfalia installed battery and this fusebox has a Cut Off switch.
I very much doubt if the Westfalia mains charger is connected to the engine battery to charge it as well when on EHU.

 

[ArunAlec]

But on mine, 30hrs on EHU raised the leisure batteries to 13.0v and the starter battery stayed at 11.8v.
My meandering around trying to determine whether a) there is a fault, b) this is by design, c) the starter battery doesn't receive a charge until the leisures "overflow", and I still don't know the answer.
Although I suspect the starter battery is entirely dependent on the alternator and/or a direct charger hooked up to it.
My half arsed attempt to just take 1 cable out to the van by using the EHU to power a charger to the starter battery at the same time as charging the leisures, by using the 12v cigarette lighter in the cab and only when this had the square root of zero effect on the starter battery did it become appartent that the damn thing was wired to the leisures. And bypassing the house 12v isolation switch.
Also that the tracking is supplied by the leisure batteries. Not a problem, just ran counter to my expectations.
So, back to the original reason for my post - should I expect my Joker's starter battery be charging on EHU? And if Wandahome don't know and Westfalia don't answer enquiries, then I guess I will have to live with it and have my Ctek permanently connected.

Based on my voltage check and what the Joker handbook says , I would expect the starter battery to be getting a charge from the EHU.
It might be worth you carrying out the same check to compare. Also a call to Campervansales in Burgess Hill. They should be able to answer the question.
I will do another check of mine …. Just to confirm.

 

[yossarian]

Your leisure battery ( I see the westfalia brochure says 1x95ah) is definitely being charged when you are driving?

Edit: here's an easy diagnostic assuming you have the factory split charge relay:

• LHS seat fully back.
• Unclip spilt charge relay on left if you're facing the rear.
• Ground one multimeter lead.
• Test voltage on each large terminal on the split charge relay.
• One side should be starter battery voltage the other leisure battery voltage.

 

[ArunAlec]

From the Westfalia manual ….

 

[Glenhyrst]

Do you have 2 x leisure batteries?
If yes, are both the same amps?
If no, is one of the batteries under the front passenger seat?
If yes, is it a Varta 75/85 amp agm battery?
If yes then that is the VW OEM 2nd battery fitted.
That battery will be charged by the VW split charge relay and will also power the dashboard socket and the Eberspacher diesel parking heater if fitted by VW. There would be a sticker on drivers B pillar if that is the case.

Westfalia seems to have fitted their own mains powered charger and a second leisure battery in parallel with the VW leisure battery. Both batteries will charge from mains charger or alternator.
All the habitation electrics are probably connected to a Westfalia fusebox powered by a connection to the Westfalia installed battery and this fusebox has a Cut Off switch.
I very much doubt if the Westfalia mains charger is connected to the engine battery to charge it as well when on EHU.

2 x leisure
1 x70Ah and 1 x 95Ah AGMs. The starter is a Monbat EFB.
Monbat batteries

My starter battery is now fully charged at 12.8v.
I'm sure the leisures get an alternator charge but my brains are starting to fry and smoke is coming out of both ears (is that normal?), so I'll take it for a ride today and see what happens.

At this rate, I foresee a barn find in about 50 years, of a dust covered Joker with less than a 1000 miles on the clock and a note inside saying "those batteries, I can't take any more".

 

[Glenhyrst]

From the Westfalia manual ….View attachment 122347

I appreciate that, but other posters seem to be of the impression that whatever the booklet says, it doesn't happen. And it doesn't happen in mine.
But if a fault, then it's another trip back to Wandahome who seem a little unsure of themselves on these issues.
The alternative is to wait until the warranty expires and get it sorted by someone who knows what they are doing. Already got to 6 months of the warranty period. Statistically, at my age, I have a modest chance of croaking before another 18 months passes. And I would so like it right.
But as I've said before, a trained autoelectrician said he would not touch it without a wiring diagram.
And so far, none is available.

 

[ArunAlec]

I appreciate that, but other posters seem to be of the impression that whatever the booklet says, it doesn't happen. And it doesn't happen in mine.
But if a fault, then it's another trip back to Wandahome who seem a little unsure of themselves on these issues.
The alternative is to wait until the warranty expires and get it sorted by someone who knows what they are doing. Already got to 6 months of the warranty period. Statistically, at my age, I have a modest chance of croaking before another 18 months passes. And I would so like it right.
But as I've said before, a trained autoelectrician said he would not touch it without a wiring diagram.
And so far, none is available.

It might be worth checking what voltage you get across the starter battery when it’s on mains EHU. It Will at least indicate whether there’s a charge going in and if so it would suggest it’s a faulty battery.

 

[Ch1pbutty]

We only have one leisure battery. Engine & leisure charge whilst on EHU.

 

[The Merle]

Could it be time to get shot, does sound like you won’t be able to live with van in my opinion.
Had the same with mine and the major water leaks and other issues (couldn’t live with it even once faults fixed)
Dealer may take it back a very small/if any loss.
It’s a lot of money for something that stresses you out and isn’t what you expected (due to faults/dealer etc).
Go get something that will.
Speaking from experience and my westy dealer was amazing fixing/comp etc.

 

[Glenhyrst]

Could it be time to get shot, does sound like you won’t be able to live with van in my opinion.
Had the same with mine and the major water leaks and other issues (couldn’t live with it even once faults fixed)
Dealer may take it back a very small/if any loss.
It’s a lot of money for something that stresses you out and isn’t what you expected (due to faults/dealer etc).
Go get something that will.
Speaking from experience and my westy dealer was amazing fixing/comp etc.

The thought had crossed my mind many times and of course, had I known that the dealer had been less than able to tackle the problems, or at times unwilling to recognise that there were problems, then I would not have purchased the van.
But now the issue is relatively minor and with the weather about to improve (?), I reckon to give it a reasonable try and either find it up to our expectations or accept it's not for us and throw in the towel.
To do so now, when most of the aggro is behind us would be to never know if a camper might have suited us.

 

[Glenhyrst]

It might be worth checking what voltage you get across the starter battery when it’s on mains EHU. It Will at least indicate whether there’s a charge going in and if so it would suggest it’s a faulty battery.

No evidence of a charge, but then no evidence of a charge to the leisure batteries when engine running.

Just received this from Wandahome - "I have had a response from Westfalia whilst I have been away on annual leave, please see below.

Unfortunately, the battery management at VW changed in 2020. Since then, it is no longer possible for the vehicle batteries to be charged via the Westfalia charging management. We apologize that this information is still incorrect in the operating instructions."

So, I have been chasing shadows.

My problem is made worse by the starter battery voltage dropping like a stone after charging it up directly. An example: 3hrs after ceasing charging the battery, the voltage ws 12.76v. 60 hours later the reading was 12.22v.
So either a duff battery or a parasitic loss.
Taking it to VW next week.

On a more positive note, I did take it up Chimney Bank, Rosedale and OK, the road dry and I did not have to stop and try a restart, but it took the 1:3 incline well enough. I was concerned about grip on such an incline given the ease with which the front wheels spin on take off even on a dry road.

 

[ArunAlec]

No evidence of a charge, but then no evidence of a charge to the leisure batteries when engine running.

Just received this from Wandahome - "I have had a response from Westfalia whilst I have been away on annual leave, please see below.

Unfortunately, the battery management at VW changed in 2020. Since then, it is no longer possible for the vehicle batteries to be charged via the Westfalia charging management. We apologize that this information is still incorrect in the operating instructions."

So, I have been chasing shadows.

My problem is made worse by the starter battery voltage dropping like a stone after charging it up directly. An example: 3hrs after ceasing charging the battery, the voltage ws 12.76v. 60 hours later the reading was 12.22v.
So either a duff battery or a parasitic loss.
Taking it to VW next week.

On a more positive note, I did take it up Chimney Bank, Rosedale and OK, the road dry and I did not have to stop and try a restart, but it took the 1:3 incline well enough. I was concerned about grip on such an incline given the ease with which the front wheels spin on take off even on a dry road.

Gets more intriguing! Just did another check and on Hook Up my starter battery voltage definitely goes up, to 13v plus. And my VIN number shows “M” as the year which is 2021. Await your VW visit, good luck!

 

[Glenhyrst]

Gets more intriguing! Just did another check and on Hook Up my starter battery voltage definitely goes up, to 13v plus. And my VIN number shows “M” as the year which is 2021. Await your VW visit, good luck!

Just had word from VW who say my starter battery (8 months old) is fine. I was concerned because of starter voltage readings such as these, obtained when van unused:
Drop in voltage over 16 days - 12.5v -> 11.8v
Over last 23hrs - 12.5v -> 12.3v
Am I fussing too much?

 

[ArunAlec]

Just had word from VW who say my starter battery (8 months old) is fine. I was concerned because of starter voltage readings such as these, obtained when van unused:
Drop in voltage over 16 days - 12.5v -> 11.8v
Over last 23hrs - 12.5v -> 12.3v
Am I fussing too much?

I guess the only way to know if it’s the battery or something drawing current would be to leave the battery disconnected for a period to see if the voltage still drops…… but that might cause problems with the electrics.

 

[Glenhyrst]

I guess the only way to know if it’s the battery or something drawing current would be to leave the battery disconnected for a period to see if the voltage still drops…… but that might cause problems with the electrics.

Concern re the electrics is why I have not tried a battery disconnect.
Looking back through the records I've kept was a drop over 16 days from 12.5v to 11.8v.
Looking at online tables, 11.8v is described as "discharged".
If this is normal, given that the vehicle will only have occasional use, I guess I will have to leave it continuous charge with an intelligent (Ctek 5) charger.
Interesting too that the average daily discharge rate varies from 0.04v/day to 0.2v/day.
Hitherto I had thought that a monthly charge at the most if vehicle was not used would be sufficient.

 

[The Merle]

Just had word from VW who say my starter battery (8 months old) is fine. I was concerned because of starter voltage readings such as these, obtained when van unused:
Drop in voltage over 16 days - 12.5v -> 11.8v
Over last 23hrs - 12.5v -> 12.3v
Am I fussing too much?

Didn’t they fit an after market alarm on your joker (normally do). Isn't that connected to starter battery?

 

[Glenhyrst]

Didn’t they fit an after market alarm on your joker (normally do). Isn't that connected to starter battery?

They did. I presume that unlike the tracker, it is connected to the starter battery. But would that be enough to explain the voltage drop? My last vehicle, a Saab, had an alarm and latterly was little used but only needed the battery charging every few months. In 1 year in lockdown it managed 4 miles - 2 miles each way re an MOT. So no regular alternator top-up then.
If this kind of thing is normal for these vehicles then I can stop looking for trouble. But is it?

 

[m10chkcalifornia]

They did. I presume that unlike the tracker, it is connected to the starter battery. But would that be enough to explain the voltage drop? My last vehicle, a Saab, had an alarm and latterly was little used but only needed the battery charging every few months. In 1 year in lockdown it managed 4 miles - 2 miles each way re an MOT. So no regular alternator top-up then.
If this kind of thing is normal for these vehicles then I can stop looking for trouble. But is it?

A bit of math. Seems that alarms can be expected to draw around 25-40mA. So over 30 days (720 hours) that amounts to between 18 and 32 Amp hours - about 30-40 % of the average starter battery’s capacity. Not insignificant! There may be other systems drawing small amounts if current. Bottom line - what you are experiencing may be normal!