Concern re 150 hk and DSG auto gear-box

[Leo Sande]

At the speed around 70-80 (km/h) the DSG puts in gear D6 and immediately sets the rpm to between 1.1-1.2 with result that the engine chokes, produces an annoying sound and usually even vibrates, felt in the entire car. Power is also temporary lost. (Sounds to me as very bad for the engine with this too low rpm.) I spoke/complained to VW about it, and got later an answer from a technical service that the combination gear and rpm cannot be altered and is programed at the fabric for “optimum performance and fuel-consumption”. I was left with that.

There are - as far as I understand - three remedies for this:

1. “Kick-down”, putting the throttle to the bottom. This will change to one or several lower gear(s). A procedure I dislike and have difficulties performing smoothly.
   
   
2. Switching to S-drive. Not realistic for a temporary gear adjustment … though, can be used on country-roads, often with speed limit 70-80 (km/h) during long distance … then with higher fuel consumption.
   
   
3. Quickly switching to manual gear-shifting (Tiptronic) and setting a lower gear, than shifting back when the speed is over the critical point. With constant road limit to 70-80 (km/h) it's not possible to go back to auto-gear. Then the car is in fact as one with manual gear-box … and that is not what one payed for.

Is it reasonable that one of VW's prestige cars with well renown DSG auto gear-box really should behave in this manner ...? requiring the driver to constant, cumbersome maneuvers. (It's a T6 Ocean from 2014.) Any of you owners of California with similar problem?

 

[Loz]

Or go for a same width but lower profile tyre and lower the gearing that way..

Not ideal but less manual..

 

[Sp0_0k]

204hp holds 7th gear on 60-70kmh like a charm, didn't notice any issues. On some hills, it shifts down smooth and unnoticeable.
Played with manual tiptronic several times and find auto to be way smarter.

 

[Leo Sande]

204hp holds 7th gear on 60-70kmh like a charm ... .

No specific help knowing how 204hp behaves. I talk about 150hp. It's obvious that 150hp is too weak for the heavy California (3000 kg) and an auto gearbox. I look forward here for a more useful tip.

 

[Keith Smith]

I have a 150 DSG and took it out yesterday down the local bypass, set it at 45mph on the cruise control and, apart from annoying all the other drivers by driving so slowly, didn't have a problem. It ran just about 1250rpm in 7th on the flat and changed down to 6th when we got to a steeper bit, no vibration or noise of any sort. I am thinking you may have an engine problem rather than a problem with the gearbox?

 

[calimera]

Agree with Keith. We've just returned from 1500 mile trip in France from Roscoff to Cevennes National parc. Lots of motorway driving,up steep narrow mountain roads etc.

Husband so pleased with the driving experience. Smooth engine . He also tested the manual & the sport mode. No vibration or noise.
He loves the adaptive cruise, made driving 5 hours easier.

Only problem we had ,was a large motorhome driving in the middle of the road at sped & knocking our wing mirror off , mirror hanging by the wires. ( fortunately able to pop in back in).
I developed a nervous twitch every time we passed a Motorhome after that.

 

[Leo Sande]

I have a 150 DSG and took it out yesterday down the local bypass, set it at 45mph on the cruise control and, apart from annoying all the other drivers by driving so slowly, didn't have a problem. It ran just about 1250rpm in 7th on the flat and changed down to 6th when we got to a steeper bit, no vibration or noise of any sort. I am thinking you may have an engine problem rather than a problem with the gearbox?

Keith, thanks for your interest. With the cruise control it's a quite different story. Then my Calfifornia behaves in same way as yours … holds 70 km/h without any problem. In fact, by use of the cruise control it can accelerate from 50 to 90 nearly without any miss-sound. The California cruise control is a wonderful thing. Unfortunately it cannot be used in all situations. My issue at the top of this thread was: Throttle, D6 and rpm between 1.1-1.2.

 

[Leo Sande]

Agree with Keith. We've just returned from 1500 mile trip in France from Roscoff to Cevennes National parc. Lots of motorway driving,up steep narrow mountain roads etc.

Husband so pleased with the driving experience. Smooth engine . He also tested the manual & the sport mode. No vibration or noise.
He loves the adaptive cruise, made driving 5 hours easier ...

Calimera, thanks for your interest. Agree … driving on motorways is marvelous with the California … always using the cruise control, smooth, silent, and powerful. And if needed to slow down by braking for a situation, the cruise control forcefully and smooth takes the car up to former speed. My issue at the top of this thread was: Throttle, D6 and rpm between 1.1-1.2.

 

[Keith Smith]

Keith, thanks for your interest. With the cruise control it's a quite different story. Then my Calfifornia behaves in same way as yours … holds 70 km/h without any problem. In fact, by use of the cruise control it can accelerate from 50 to 90 nearly without any miss-sound. The California cruise control is a wonderful thing. Unfortunately it cannot be used in all situations. My issue at the top of this thread was: Throttle, D6 and rpm between 1.1-1.2.

I tried driving it without cruise initially and at this sort of speed it ran around 1200rpm and moved between 5th and 7th gear depending on the incline and the amount the accelerator pedal was depressed. I then switched on the cruise control to take away the human element. Didn't have any problems or notice any labouring or vibration with or without cruise. If yours is running 1100rpm rather than 1200rpm that could make all the difference, not sure why having cruise on would solve the problem though.

 

[VW Cali]

Totally hypothetical and probably not related to your issue:

But sometimes such impressions depends on what sort of cars you are used to.

I started off with a Ford Mondeo twenty years ago and never noticed anything like above. Then shortly afterwards all my cars were between 400 and 550bhp. Then Ford Mondeo felt as you describe...

Even worse, with more than a decade of owning various cars in the 400bhp plus range, I drove a new Bimmer with 250bhp bi turbo diesel and felt it had some of the characteristics you describe, though not as bad. It was just that I pushed it when it didn't want to be pushed. It wouldn't kick down unless I used manual...

Now possibly your issue just related to the programming. Are you keeping the throttle pressure constant?

Now that I have a 150bhp DSG I don't expect it respond like an Italian supercar. It's fine, except you can't really push from stationary or low speeds. Grunts and rumbles and kills the MPG. It won't kick down, so I will use manual override if needed....

Bottom line: Could your issue be one of just not being used to 150bhp only, and your particular driving style ?

Just asking, and only a far out guess.

 

[WelshGas]

Totally hypothetical and probably not related to your issue:

But sometimes such impressions depends on what sort of cars you are used to.

I started off with a Ford Mondeo twenty years ago and never noticed anything like above. Then shortly afterwards all my cars were between 400 and 550bhp. Then Ford Mondeo felt as you describe...

Even worse, with more than a decade of owning various cars in the 400bhp plus range, I drove a new Bimmer with 250bhp bi turbo diesel and felt it had some of the characteristics you describe, though not as bad. It was just that I pushed it when it didn't want to be pushed. It wouldn't kick down unless I used manual...

Now possibly your issue just related to the programming. Are you keeping the throttle pressure constant?

Now that I have a 150bhp DSG I don't expect it respond like an Italian supercar. It's fine, except you can't really push from stationary or low speeds. Grunts and rumbles and kills the MPG. It won't kick down, so I will use manual override if needed....

Bottom line: Could your issue be one of just not being used to 150bhp only, and your particular driving style ?

Just asking, and only a far out guess.

I'm surprised the 150 California Beach with a DSG transmission doesn't have the Kickdown function.
The T6 Transporters I've driven with a DSG box all had this function although you had to push on the accelerator to engage it.

 

[VW Cali]

I'm surprised the 150 California Beach with a DSG transmission doesn't have the Kickdown function.
The T6 Transporters I've driven with a DSG box all had this function although you had to push on the accelerator to engage it.

Not so much about not having the kickdown function, but in the programmed modulation of it.

Some cars will kick down very fast. Others won't and even if they do the response will be inadequate. The relation between throttle, RPM, speed and torque curve is programmed.

In general, the less the power the less the kickdown effect. Diesel engines in particular rely less on kickdown than the flat torque curve. Push beyond that and they disappoint.

 

[WelshGas]

Not so much about not having the kickdown function, but in the programmed modulation of it.

Some cars will kick down very fast. Others won't and even if they do the response will be inadequate. The relation between throttle, RPM, speed and torque curve is programmed.

In general, the less the power the less the kickdown effect. Diesel engines in particular rely less on kickdown than the flat torque curve. Push beyond that and they disappoint.

So the 204 does have an advantage in this respect.

 

[VW Cali]

So the 204 does have an advantage in this respect.

My guess...

However, purely from experience and guess work rather than analysis.

In general smaller capacity engines with increased bhp suffer at higher speeds. So while you might get 400bhp out of 3.0 litre engine nothing will beat say the naturally aspirated 5.2 V10 540/600bhp of a Lamborghini Huracan/ Audi R8 V10.

I have friends who own/run successful motor sports teams across Formula One and Le Mans so I might ask them for more informed opinion.

 

[Jabberwocky]

Agree with Keith. We've just returned from 1500 mile trip in France from Roscoff to Cevennes National parc. Lots of motorway driving,up steep narrow mountain roads etc.

Husband so pleased with the driving experience. Smooth engine . He also tested the manual & the sport mode. No vibration or noise.
He loves the adaptive cruise, made driving 5 hours easier.

Only problem we had ,was a large motorhome driving in the middle of the road at sped & knocking our wing mirror off , mirror hanging by the wires. ( fortunately able to pop in back in).
I developed a nervous twitch every time we passed a Motorhome after that.

Same happened to me in North Wales with a hire Cali - lost some of my deposit.

 

[Jabberwocky]

Could tyre diameter have anything to do with this,Throttle, D6 and rpm between 1.1-1.2, problem? It occurs to me that if the DSG is programmed taking into account the torque of the engine in preference to the road speed then different things will happen with different tyre size. One revolution of a 20" wheel is almost 25% further than a 16" wheel. Just wondering.

 

[andyinluton]

One revolution of a 20" wheel is almost 25% further than a 16" wheel. Just wondering.

Whilst the rim size is bigger, the tyre profile is lower so the overall diameter of the tyre ends up being the same give or take a few mm

 

[Wrinkly Ninja]

Agree with Keith. We've just returned from 1500 mile trip in France from Roscoff to Cevennes National parc. Lots of motorway driving,up steep narrow mountain roads etc.

Husband so pleased with the driving experience. Smooth engine . He also tested the manual & the sport mode. No vibration or noise.
He loves the adaptive cruise, made driving 5 hours easier.

Only problem we had ,was a large motorhome driving in the middle of the road at sped & knocking our wing mirror off , mirror hanging by the wires. ( fortunately able to pop in back in).
I developed a nervous twitch every time we passed a Motorhome after that.

Hi Calimera
Just picking up on your nasty mirror to mirror experience with a motorhome (their mirrors look as big as Televisions don't they?) the same thing happened to me in Snowdonia when first renting a California. Very loud bang (not good for the heart) embarrassing and expensive.
We rented aT6...with folding mirrors as standard... recently for a week in Cornwall and I became pretty good at twiddling the electric mirror button one turn to fold them in any time a threatening motorhome or HGV came towards me in the narrow lanes....worked a treat. I set the button so that it was one quick twist clockwise to fold.
It was so useful that down very narrow lanes I folded them in and kept them like it until I was on a wider stretch of road...after all you don't need to know what's behind you in a narrow lane.
Hope this helps
PS our own Ocean is now on order...roll on March!

 

[VW Cali]

On a 250 mile round trip last week I decided to observe how the engine on the 150bhp DSG responds:

1. Stationary to v low speeds. Doesn't like pulling away and on quasi-auto DSG mode can't kick down enough anyway. Horrible for MPG too.

2. In the 40-50 MPH speed. Again struggles. Doesn't kick down enough in DSG mode. Rumbles and struggles if you push on the throttle. Better when you go to manual mode. Tells me it is not programmed to kick down enough. Bear in mind kick down not great option anyway for diesel engines which operate at lower RPM and flatter torque curves.

3. 70 mph: Becomes smoother and responds well.

 

[Loz]

On a 250 mile round trip last week I decided to observe how the engine on the 150bhp DSG responds:

1. Stationary to v low speeds. Doesn't like pulling away and on quasi-auto DSG mode can't kick down enough anyway. Horrible for MPG too.

2. In the 40-50 MPH speed. Again struggles. Doesn't kick down enough in DSG mode. Rumbles and struggles if you push on the throttle. Better when you go to manual mode. Tells me it is not programmed to kick down enough. Bear in mind kick down not great option anyway for diesel engines which operate at lower RPM and flatter torque curves.

3. 70 mph: Becomes smoother and responds well.

Have you tried the same with the DSG in sport mode, it will be far more responsive?

 

[VW Cali]

Have you tried the same with the DSG in sport mode, it will be far more responsive?

Good point.

I can't remember exactly. I think I did and it was more responsive but not enough.

The issue I think is that you sport mode or manual, there is a limit to how much one can kick down with a 150bhp diesel.

I have another car which I can drive at 35mph in 6th gear, or 2nd gear at up to 80mph. So say traveling at 70mph in 6th gear I can, using the flappy pedals instantly, drop 4 gears down to 2nd. But the reason I can do is its a naturally aspirated 500bhp plus that redlines at around 9,000 RPM.

This 150bhp DSG can't really do much. There are limits of weight, power, diesel engine with low RPM and so on.

I think the 204bhp will probably be better. But seems like 204bhp only really comes in with the Ocean.

For the adventures types, maybe they can get their cars "chipped."

 

[Jabberwocky]

Whilst the rim size is bigger, the tyre profile is lower so the overall diameter of the tyre ends up being the same give or take a few mm

Good point Andy. You got me thinking so I did some calculations to check. The difference between a 16" 65 - Beach std spec and a 18" 45 - largest VW option is as you say tiny.

 

[calimera]

Hi Calimera
Just picking up on your nasty mirror to mirror experience with a motorhome (their mirrors look as big as Televisions don't they?) the same thing happened to me in Snowdonia when first renting a California. Very loud bang (not good for the heart) embarrassing and expensive.
We rented aT6...with folding mirrors as standard... recently for a week in Cornwall and I became pretty good at twiddling the electric mirror button one turn to fold them in any time a threatening motorhome or HGV came towards me in the narrow lanes....worked a treat. I set the button so that it was one quick twist clockwise to fold.
It was so useful that down very narrow lanes I folded them in and kept them like it until I was on a wider stretch of road...after all you don't need to know what's behind you in a narrow lane.
Hope this helps
PS our own Ocean is now on order...roll on March!

Agree the bang was very loud.
Good advice . Only thing is ,I was on the passengers side driving in France!!!
Arms aren't long enough . My husband had control of the button .

 

[Wrinkly Ninja]

Agree the bang was very loud.
Good advice . Only thing is ,I was on the passengers side driving in France!!!
Arms aren't long enough . My husband had control of the button .

My wife would say that's an oxymoron "Husband...Control"

 

[VW Cali]

Have you tried the same with the DSG in sport mode, it will be far more responsive?

I think the same constraints of flat torque curve, low RPM, and low power to weight ratio combine to reduce performance.

Sport mode is just programmed to shift higher later, meaning increased RPM. But the constraints still apply.

I am not sure how optimized it is; presumably a skilful manual shifting driver could match or exceed sport mode.

As yes, I have tried it. It is somewhat better but struggles in same areas where normal mode struggles.

We must remember this is not a sports car though or even a fastish sedan.

For what it is designed for it does a very fine job long as you remember the shire horse is not an Arabian thoroughbred.

So I don't see the above observations as any form of criticism.

Now, personally, if I had had the opportunity to grab a 204bhp Beach I would have. Or if VW had provided the option of a 3.0 litre 250bhp+ engine I would have been v intetested.

But as it is, the 150bhp DSG is perfectly fine for what it is.