Keeping it California - Last Chance to VOTE

[BrendanJ]

Not quite right.

Of the 80 threads in the CV section 78 have coronavirus or something directly related to it in the title or the OP.

Yes I expect so, and regarding coronavirus to be expected as this is very current and particularly where poster is questioning say the coronavirus implications to camping or California is general. I do not believe you can make such threads “censorable” . The problem ensues when individual posters not the thread owner hijack the post with contentious and opinionated, even aggressive posts of there own, which are often obviously no connection to original thread or intention, but just sounding off or indeed looking for a fight. It is this that should be dealt with, not the thread

 

[GrannyJen]

What did you vote?

It's a secret ballot

 

[westfalia]

It's a secret ballot

Is campaigning allowed?

 

[Duxdeluxe]

Just another viewpoint for discussion.

Brex!t was very damaging, on social media and everywhere else. It also went on for three years and it's not over yet. It was causing argument everywhere until the three cocks was opened, the sin-bin as I call it, anything mentioning the B word was dropped in there and what was posted in there was taken off the "New posts" feed. You actually have to make an effort now to look for anything.

Coronavirus in some ways is a different animal. For this forum it was a double whammy. Something that crashed into our lives almost without warning and was from the outset as much a political issue as a tremendous social issue. It was going to get talked about a lot wherever you were, this forum or anywhere else. It also did something else, it stopped us from talking about what we talk about most, our lives and our travels in our cali's.

Lockdown is coming to an end and hopefully soon we can start posting camping stuff again, pics of our dogs, our cali's, our campsites. Living with CV is now also becoming the new normal. It is unlikely to be the running sore carrying on for years that Brex!t is.

When I came to this forum I found the most helpful, the most useful and the most accepting social media site I have ever found. That forum has not changed, it still is all of that so please do not change it. If that happens then my sense of humour on this forum will also have to change. Indeed just a few minutes ago I posted somewhere else about having to nip off and "do a Dominic", visit my Sister.

Instead of changing the forum just dump the CV section in the three cocks, which will take all new posts off the regular feeds, allow me and other moderators to dump all mention of CV in the sin-bin and allow us to continue doing what we are trying to do now, get rid of the bitchy snarling comments by re-emphasing rules of engagement. If you can't respond to a post without implying or calling the other poster a "twat" or similar epithet then your posts will be removed and ultimately also your ability to post.

Finally please use the report button. A lot of people complaining they "do not come here to talk about politics" .... well, the CV section can be ignored and if reference to it or the politics of it crop up elsewhere, report it. We try our best, but with over 200 messages a day, sometimes well over that, we can't be everywhere and the report button really helps us to get to offending posts popped into the wrong sections.

At last, the voice of reason, well said Jen

 

[Keith Smith]

Couldn't the more contentious parts of the forum be set to be invisible to new members, who would then need to post say 10 times before they were aware of them?

 

[pjm-84]

Well, having thought about it I cast a No. I think you have a right to speak your mind as long as you don't offend and are civil. Similarly, you also have the ability to ignore. Maybe a tad simplistic I know.

 

[babble]

I like it here and find it easy to ignore the political threads and posts. Indeed, I must be one of the few who doesn't even notice them. I just skim past them. I do find it useful to know about where we can travel and pet passports and things, so practical details. (Being a single parent Brit living in Belgium with three French/British daughters I am enormously affected by these things as you can imagine! So all information is gratefully received).

So for me, I don't really mind either way, but I'm more on the 'no' side.

It's a great site anyway. Very helpful and friendly I find, especially if you actually ask something. Solar panels, storage solutions, apps, electrics, places to visit, tyres, ways to go to the toilet during the night. What's not to like!

 

[Jay gas]

To be honest I love a good old tear up now and again wether over brexit or covid. I guess covid was all consuming as it shut down everything that you can do in your California with the exception of maintenance or sleeping in it on your own property. Because of that the posts on here reflected the all encompassing covid pandemic. A few people did go overboard in what they wrote on here for sure but like people have said there is an ignore button.

I look forward to things on here becoming more, shall we say normal or balanced as time goes on through covid so I would say no to banning it

 

[Borris]

Well, having thought about it I cast a No. I think you have a right to speak your mind as long as you don't offend and are civil. Similarly, you also have the ability to ignore. Maybe a tad simplistic I know.

I agree almost entirely. Against modern thinking, I even reserve the right to be offended once in a while just as long as it's done in a civil manner. However, there is the issue of whether these contentious subjects are appropriate on a forum designed to service the specific needs of VW California owners? I know it can be difficult to avoid politics and Covid references at times but it seems to me that they have been responsible for generating more than their fair share of agro recently. Do we really need that?

 

[BrendanJ]

I can only equate it to my running forum (7,000 members) for which until three days ago I was a moderator.

Very similar to this forum. We had an ethos of doing everything to avoid censoring posts, indeed this very forum in which we are now had it's origins in breaking away from heavy-handed moderation. aThe three cocks section on this forum was created to remove from sight all that petty bickering that had became so tedious during Brex!t , an alternative to chopping out posts wholesale. The equivalent in my running forum had "time out".

Along comes Covid and as with California owners so runners found their main source of discussion and activity curtailed including postponement of the worlds most popular marathon. Little else to talk about except c-19. Then people started complaining about it being a running forum, not a C 19 forum.

Well, I did a count up there, and here, and guess what? There are still more posts about running/camping than c 19.

Unlike that forum this forum then put it's most politically blighted and abuse ridden posts all in one bucket called C 19. There is a button at the top of that forum called "Ignore forum". If you press that then all the abuse disappears from sight, people can still discuss the dreaded subject, they can still shout at each other,( although believe it or not we have been moderating out the worst of the abuse .... even a gobby old bat like me has managed to delete more posts than Ive posted).

This should now make the moderation of the forum more difficult. If politics rears it's ugly head in the other forums, great, press report and I will press either "delete" or "move to sin bin".

Now, within the coronavirus section, even though by it's nature it is political, it is also unavoidable. It is banging in our faces from the moment we wake up to the moment we finally get to sleep, so perhaps you and I may want our say their and, sadly, we have not often been able to. I personally would love the opportunity to take a sledgehammer to it and some posters in it and draw a line that states simply anything that can be construed as being offensive will be deleted and a yellow card shown. Of course the howls of "censorship" will echo all around but then, that goes with the territory and I personally do not give a monkeys provided I have the support of the vast majority of the membership and more importantly the owners, who to date have always been supportive.

Two things to consider Borris. Firstly if the vote "No" on this poll then is in the majority that will deny all those members who want to discuss the biggest issue I their lives today the opportunity to do so. It will deny me and my little jokes about "doing a Dominic" when I nipped out to drop a birthday present at my Sisters door. It will create moderation issues that will be a nightmare, I will be giving myself a red card hourly, in a thread earlier we were talking about California enquiries increasing and joking about "It depends how many they had to start with" and I had to stop myself from replying "it depends if a certain politician was doing the counting" ..... under a new regime of "No politics" I can see half a dozen fingers going to the report button straight away whilst another dozen posters whingeing away about "censorship and it's ok for her to mention politics but if any of us dare to".....

Yes, with Covid things have got out of hand. I would love to take a hatchet to some posts. That would require a sea change in the principles of moderation currently embodied in this forum. Perhaps that is what we should be debating. Well, tbh, that sea change has already happened in some threads. You probably may not have noticed but some threads are considerably slimmer than they once were.

All this is my own personal view. It was with some sadness in my running forum that I saw a similar debate take place, about two weeks ago, and anything to do with anything but the physical effort of running was to be banned. Now instead of C 19 the biggest topic discussed is the "over-moderation". Really. Almost every thread now is "Why was my post/thread being deleted" and "why was I given a ban". It is tearing that forum apart.

Jen,
Now I am more confused
It seems you are saying that unless you are allowed to ban all political or coved threads that you will be forced to continue deleting posts because they are political or coved? In effect the same thing but more time consuming for you.
If i have understood correctly?
but surely that is not the right response and I agree would be over moderation on purely coved grounds
Moderation surely is not to avoid the subject but to avoid abuse and bad behaviour,
Ie removal of the offending post and poster if necessary, not the whole thread and censoring the whole subject which I would not agree with
I do appreciate that this poses challenges and perhaps as has been suggested is leave it to the membership to call out such instances by reporting and then the moderators job is simply to judge whether abusive or unacceptable behaviour has indeed occurred, and if repeated by same person which is often the case then ban the person
The forum will soon get the message, not censorship but enforcement of standards of behaviour that most would be thankful for I am sure

 

[Seaview]

I’ve just voted ‘no’ as over moderation/banning topics can ruin a forum. Personally I find this forum a great resource (sometimes expensive !!) with lots of ideas shared and problems solved.

Ignoring if it bothers is the way to go as their will always be the next ‘sensitive‘ topic coming along ..........

 

[Duxdeluxe]

So we get rid of politics, covid and Brexit subjects, so what’s next on the potentially inflammatory list, religion, football, race, all equally inflammatory?
We even have a minor spat going on now in the avatar post, where do you draw the line?
Or
And this is my top penny worth, contentious issues go in two cocks, anyone who goes overboard with name calling insulting etc gets a yellow card, people who are only here for Calis steer well clear of two cocks, everyone’s happy

 

[GrannyJen]

Jen,
Now I am more confused
It seems you are saying that unless you are allowed to ban all political or coved threads that you will be forced to continue deleting posts because they are political or coved? In effect the same thing but more time consuming for you.
If i have understood correctly?
but surely that is not the right response and I agree would be over moderation on purely coved grounds
Moderation surely is not to avoid the subject but to avoid abuse and bad behaviour,
Ie removal of the offending post and poster if necessary, not the whole thread and censoring the whole subject which I would not agree with
I do appreciate that this poses challenges and perhaps as has been suggested is leave it to the membership to call out such instances by reporting and then the moderators job is simply to judge whether abusive or unacceptable behaviour has indeed occurred, and if repeated by same person which is often the case then ban the person
The forum will soon get the message, not censorship but enforcement of standards of behaviour that most would be thankful for I am sure

No confusion. The debate nd this poll is whether or not we ban certain subjects for discussion and the arguments for and against saying "camping only". I am simply describing an illustration of what happens when you try draconian limitation to exclude subjects.

 

[Broch Hunter]

I think the poll question as posed means we risk throwing the baby out with the bath water.
Like many on here I have experienced a range of emotions as some of the more contentious COVID and political debates have eurupted into vitriol, typically between a small but fairly predictable group. At times I have been amused, bemused, surprised, angered and even appalled at some of the statements made and positions taken. Given the polarisation of the nation in recent years I suspect such debates become inevitable, even on a forum where the stated aim is:

“.....to give you the VW California owner or enthusiast support, information and somewhere you can meet like minded people”

Topics such as Brexit and COVID clearly have an impact on the activities and planning of members, so will at times need to be discussed. A blanket ‘ban on politics and coronavirus’ threads as suggested would have the potential to rule out some necessary discussion and exchange of information. As noted by others the difficulty lies in distinguishing the contentious, from what is informative and useful to the typical California enthusiast. I felt the emergence of The Three Cocks section has provided an acceptable home away from the visible mainstream area for the purely ’political‘ and contentious content. The problem lies in the manner in which ‘normal’ threads can be sidetracked into argument and become off putting to many readers. Here I can only suggest that it is the unenviable role of the moderator to endeavour to keep the thread on track. However, as GJ has suggested, we can all play a part by more actively reporting material that has gone seriously off topic.

Perhaps emoticons such as these, in use on another forum, may help?

 

[WelshGas]

Discussion and Debate are the lifeblood of Democracy.
The MPs in Parliament manage it despite often having opposing views and manage it without name calling and other derogatory remarks. If they can't control themselves then the Speaker asks them to apologise and if they refuse then they are ejected from the house. Simple.
So far the Forum has allowed discriminatory remarks based on age, political outlook and social groupings to go unanswered thus inadvertently supporting those making such comments.
Why not, when a sensible thread descends into out and out chaos, copy the whole thread to the 3 Cocks section but leave a copy of the original thread, minus the discriminatory / derogatory posts in the original Forum, but Locked to further posts with a statement as to why it has been moved.
This way the useful information in the thread is preserved for all and those who wish to use the thread for their own gratification can do so, out of sight and out of mind in the 3 Cocks.

 

[Velma's Dad]

So we get rid of politics, covid and Brexit subjects, so what’s next on the potentially inflammatory list, religion, football, race, all equally inflammatory?
We even have a minor spat going on now in the avatar post, where do you draw the line?

Good point. Let's not forget that in the past, before we had meaty topics like Brexit to yell at each other about, there have been significant handbag-swinging episodes that started in threads about whether Oceans (well, SEs in those days) or Beaches are better, and the merits or not of DSG.

What matters to me is that at least minimum levels of decent manners are kept when debating any subject. Most of us know when a line has been crossed and if a member is way over that line, that's when mods may have to step in, and should do without hesitation IMO. But pre-emptively trying to ban certain subjects is fruitless, I feel.

 

[Billylou]

Just stop the bickering and keep the topics. We know who is doing the bickering and they know they are bickering. Perhaps this thread alone will suffice by giving individuals something to think about before bickering again. I tried to get a 5th bickering in.....got it. Please feel free to bicker (6th) about this post.

 

[GrannyJen]

Just stop the bickering and keep the topics. We know who is doing the bickering and they know they are bickering. Perhaps this thread alone will suffice by giving individuals something to think about before bickering again. I tried to get a 5th bickering in.....got it. Please feel free to bicker (6th) about this post.

Nothing to bicker about. No bickering from me,

 

[Velma's Dad]

No bickering to see here. Move along, move along.

 

[BrendanJ]

I think the poll question as posed means we risk throwing the baby out with the bath water.
Like many on here I have experienced a range of emotions as some of the more contentious COVID and political debates have eurupted into vitriol, typically between a small but fairly predictable group. At times I have been amused, bemused, surprised, angered and even appalled at some of the statements made and positions taken. Given the polarisation of the nation in recent years I suspect such debates become inevitable, even on a forum where the stated aim is:

“.....to give you the VW California owner or enthusiast support, information and somewhere you can meet like minded people”

Topics such as Brexit and COVID clearly have an impact on the activities and planning of members, so will at times need to be discussed. A blanket ‘ban on politics and coronavirus’ threads as suggested would have the potential to rule out some necessary discussion and exchange of information. As noted by others the difficulty lies in distinguishing the contentious, from what is informative and useful to the typical California enthusiast. I felt the emergence of The Three Cocks section has provided an acceptable home away from the visible mainstream area for the purely ’political‘ and contentious content. The problem lies in the manner in which ‘normal’ threads can be sidetracked into argument and become off putting to many readers. Here I can only suggest that it is the unenviable role of the moderator to endeavour to keep the thread on track. However, as GJ has suggested, we can all play a part by more actively reporting material that has gone seriously off topic.

Perhaps emoticons such as these, in use on another forum, may help?

View attachment 59901View attachment 59902View attachment 59903

Definitely agree that using these emoticons would be good, I get sick sometimes of all the focus on “likes” only, as if we are all in need of emotional support. These new ones can encourage in an amusing way better behaviour and thus a more pleasant experience for everyone without all the stress inducing.

 

[Whistler]

No bickering to see here. Move along, move along.

May not have been a bicker but are you sure there wasn't a squabble or a quarrel to see, perhaps even a wrangle?

 

[Amarillo]

Discussion and Debate are the lifeblood of Democracy.
The MPs in Parliament manage it despite often having opposing views and manage it without name calling and other derogatory remarks. If they can't control themselves then the Speaker asks them to apologise and if they refuse then they are ejected from the house. Simple.
So far the Forum has allowed discriminatory remarks based on age, political outlook and social groupings to go unanswered thus inadvertently supporting those making such comments.
Why not, when a sensible thread descends into out and out chaos, copy the whole thread to the 3 Cocks section but leave a copy of the original thread, minus the discriminatory / derogatory posts in the original Forum, but Locked to further posts with a statement as to why it has been moved.
This way the useful information in the thread is preserved for all and those who wish to use the thread for their own gratification can do so, out of sight and out of mind in the 3 Cocks.

Well said! Agree with every word.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

[westfalia]

Well said! Agree with every word.


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I think you need to go and lay down and think about what
you've just said.

 

[Amarillo]

I think you need to go and lay down and think about what
you've just said.

Just because we don’t agree on whether or not Nordkapp is a tourist trap, doesn’t mean we can’t agree that how to deal with abusive posts.

Now, can we discuss whether or not constructing a strawman argument is abusive?

 

[5i1ver8ack]

And you guys wonder why this whole discussion is taking place. Just give it a rest.