T6.1 Ocean sinking roof

[CaliforniaSteve]

Has anyone had their sinking roof issues sorted? Mine sinks on the left hand side and I worry that there is undue stress on the RHS particularly when it is breezy. Every night it sinks so the lights won’t work and the canvas flaps ( and leaks) . SMG Tonbridge just say it is within limits but the roof only stays up because one side is working.

 

[CaliforniaCylus]

Has anyone had their sinking roof issues sorted? Mine sinks on the left hand side and I worry that there is undue stress on the RHS particularly when it is breezy. Every night it sinks so the lights won’t work and the canvas flaps ( and leaks) . SMG Tonbridge just say it is within limits but the roof only stays up because one side is working.

Am going through the process too... No info yet.

Did they communicate what the limits are? And do the take your measurements and photos for that.

My problems are accentuated by hot slipping to cold weather so if they stick it in the workshop at a consistent temperature there may not be a problem!!

 

[Ethelred]

Yes mine sinks after 3 days it’s only when we have hot weather can not see any leaks
On hydraulics or anything I just take it back up a inch or so seen a few posts but no
One knows what is causing it maybe just the heat

 

[Arthurnem1983]

In our experience, it certainly appears to be heat related. Ours drops on the left hand side mainly, but not exclusively, whenever there is a significant variation in temperature. Living in Valencia we regularly have variations between 35° in the day and 20° at night, resulting in a drop of anything up to three inches, saggy bellows and loss of lights upstairs. Where the temperature variance is negligible, the roof is fine. In summer we prefer to sleep up top, so just drop the roof a little before retiring and then raise to full height. All is then fine until the cycle repeats the following evening. We've seen a few threads on this in the forum and it seems a common issue. The roof is supposed to self correct, but ours never has. My younger self would probably have been banging on the dealers door after the first occurence, but as a more mellow older person I will mention it at its first service and continue to enjoy the pleasure our van brings us.

 

[Begize]

Yes, but I still get occasional issues. I think you should be going back to the dealer. Let me explain...

MY22 Ocean, delivered October 2022. Immediately noticed roof was dropping on the LHS only within 5 minutes of putting up roof. Lights would fail to come on, screen showed "intermediate roof position", if left it would sag noticeably within 30 minutes. Tried a trick I read on here of putting roof fully up and down five times and on the fourth "down" heard a clunk and seemed to be fine after that.

Wasn't using van with roof up over winter, but come spring noticed it was happening again and then started to read others having same issue so contacted dealer. They couldn't replicate the issue but changed the hydraulic fluid anyway and I was sent away with instructions to get photo's if it happened again and return. It did within a few hours so went back and they agreed a fault.

Swapped the rams and a few other bits over to prove the fault stayed on one side (it did) so replaced the hydraulic pump, still had a problem so they changed the pump again and bingo, fixed. Seems there are / were a batch of pumps with faulty valves (I've read they had metal swarf inside). They went back and forwards to VW and claimed many times it was a new fault to both (here and FB suggested otherwise). When I picked the van up after the second pump swap, the service guy took me into the workshop to point out another van with the same fault and proudly told me they knew what to do now!

Since changing, my roof does drop slightly in very hot weather (30c +) but uniformly across both sides and after a few days, the lights eventually won't come on up there either. I also noticed on a recent trip it looses a tiny bit of tension on one side if there's a prevailing wind there but the lights all work. I've never seen or heard my roof autocorrect itself incidentally.

So TLDR - if it's dropping noticeably on one side within minutes, go to dealer and ask them nicely to swap the hydraulic pump.

 

[dspuk]

What @Begize says.

Also try the up and down 10x trick to just flush air and bubbles from the system.

We’ve only had it once in France in the early days (was v hot, both sides dropped), never again since then inc 4 nights at a very hot Sandringham last week..

 

[sidepod]

Sounds to me like a different grade of oil is required?

 

[passoni24]

Hi. If I could pick up this thread and add please.
MY23 Ocean. I have had the sagging roof bellows from new in Sept 22 and had it back to VW Liverpool and now VW Cleckheaton with no joy. (Had no end of warranty issues with this Cali afraid too say).
I am told that the system has been bled and the 5x up and down has been done. Last week it was left for a few days in the workshop with the roof up but it didn't sag. I brought it home and it sagged as usual with 2 days. Drivers side. No roof lights working. Usual stuff.
When we are away I just re-tension the roof by pressing 'down' a bit and the 'up' again. It's a pain though.
I had a T5.1 for 13 years without a problem. (DSG gearbox imploded though! Hence sold it).
So my questions are:
1. VW are saying a 20cm roof drop is within tolerance. Has anyone successfully challenged that please?
2. Unlike my T5.1, the T6.1 has never re-tensioned itself after 5, 10 or any hours after ignition off. Is that a fault?
3. Is the consensus that the sagging is due to change in temp over night which may not show up in a workshop environment? Our's sagged in France at 30+c but also here in 10-15c with a PUCER wrap round insulation wrap on.
It is hard to prove this issue are we only camp rarely it seems and only for couple of nights each pitch.
Thanks
Here arte some photos. Usual stuff. Would sink further if I leave it I am sure.

 

[CaliforniaSteve]

I am in a similar position. Roof drops on near side. Some nights I have to raise it 3 or 4 times. It seems to go down quicker when warm or windy. Also the canvas leaks as in flips against the roof stays. Occasionally it self corrects but there is no
clear pattern.
We must be able to do something as this is clearly wrong and really makes camping in it an unpleasant experience as we are always checking the roof especially when raining or windy.

 

[lohr500]

We must be able to do something as this is clearly wrong and really makes camping in it an unpleasant experience as we are always checking the roof especially when raining or windy.

Knowing the saga on leaking bellows, I suspect VW will tell us we shouldn't be using the roof when raining or windy!!!

Our 2024 build Cali does suffer from some roof sag, but only minimal and only after being left up for a few days.

 

[CaliforniaSteve]

One other factor is that for the majority of time the roof is being held up by only one side strut. That’s why measuring how much it sinks is irrelevant. (I can feel play in the bad strut indicating there is less weight on it). My major concern is that the good side will get damaged because of the extra stress on it. When camping I have to make sure the wind is behind even with the slightest breeze
I’m ready to take it further

 

[KevH]

Same problem here.
Had mine checked overnight at VW Leicester who found no problem but they had the van inside when testing, which almost certainly affects the result.
I have asked them to retest outside over 3 days and am awaiting their response.
There is another identical thread currently running by the way.

 

[Emil]

Adding to the conversation. My new T6.1, I’ve had it a month, has been having major issues with the roof. Sinks or rather collapses on one side already after 30 minutes. In my case the roof wouldn’t budge. Couldn’t open or close it and had to call roadside assistance, they basically closed it with brute force. It’s been at my local vw camper centre for three days. They admit something is broken but no idea what.

 

[CaliforniaCylus]

View attachment 129210Adding to the conversation. My new T6.1, I’ve had it a month, has been having major issues with the roof. Sinks or rather collapses on one side already after 30 minutes. In my case the roof wouldn’t budge. Couldn’t open or close it and had to call roadside assistance, they basically closed it with brute force. It’s been at my local vw camper centre for three days. They admit something is broken but no idea what.

Needs a new hydraulic pump.

 

[KevH]

View attachment 129210Adding to the conversation. My new T6.1, I’ve had it a month, has been having major issues with the roof. Sinks or rather collapses on one side already after 30 minutes. In my case the roof wouldn’t budge. Couldn’t open or close it and had to call roadside assistance, they basically closed it with brute force. It’s been at my local vw camper centre for three days. They admit something is broken but no idea what.

That is shocking, how on earth did it pass the PDI? And what damage is it doing to the roof cap itself?
Needs a refund if you ask me

 

[Lambeth Cali]

Just to add my five penneth.

I’ve had our 2008 California since 2009. I remember 12 years ago this happened to us a few times in various locations. Usually at night it sagged and it fired itself up and went back up, frightening the life out of me. I remember it happening on Île de Noirmoutier. A hot place but at night time.

The odd thing that might reassure you is that it just stopped doing it. Hasn’t done it in ten years. No repair. This summer we were in one of the hottest campsites, at least 35c. No sagging.

 

[passoni24]

One of my frustrations with this is that after 13 years trouble free with our previous Cali SE 5.1 this Ocean 6.1 has had a series of problems. The sagging roof is the current outstanding problem.
A Service Reception guy told me that 20cm drop was acceptable according to VW. So I took some pictures. 10cm drop on first and then 20cm drop on second two. Think they speak for themselves. That cannot be acceptable. You couldn’t sleep up there with 20cm drop.
So it seems that to prove a saggy roof, VW have to leave the van outside for the temp changes to affect the roof. Otherwise it seems it will not sag if left in the workshop. I asked them to run our interior heater but guess a problem with emissions indoors.
Then if I have read the various posts correctly (hadn’t realised what a common problem this is now) it seems that the 5x up and down, software update, bleed system, new rams, new pump in that sort of order.
I get back into VW Van centre again next week but I recon ‘brick and wall’ maybe the result.
It’s such a pain having to re-tension the saggy roof when camping.
Such a great product - yet such poor build quality nowadays. Shame.

 

[KevH]

One of my frustrations with this is that after 13 years trouble free with our previous Cali SE 5.1 this Ocean 6.1 has had a series of problems. The sagging roof is the current outstanding problem.
A Service Reception guy told me that 20cm drop was acceptable according to VW. So I took some pictures. 10cm drop on first and then 20cm drop on second two. Think they speak for themselves. That cannot be acceptable. You couldn’t sleep up there with 20cm drop.
So it seems that to prove a saggy roof, VW have to leave the van outside for the temp changes to affect the roof. Otherwise it seems it will not sag if left in the workshop. I asked them to run our interior heater but guess a problem with emissions indoors.
Then if I have read the various posts correctly (hadn’t realised what a common problem this is now) it seems that the 5x up and down, software update, bleed system, new rams, new pump in that sort of order.
I get back into VW Van centre again next week but I recon ‘brick and wall’ maybe the result.
It’s such a pain having to re-tension the saggy roof when camping.
Such a great product - yet such poor build quality nowadays. Shame.

View attachment 129240

View attachment 129241

View attachment 129242

I notice in a previous post that the ‘20cm rule’ was questioned, ie has it been challenged? I am certainly up for making a challenge but how would that work given that VW seem to hold all of the cards?
Does the usual ‘fit for purpose’ test apply to vehicles, if so the dealer is the point of challenge, perhaps through the small claims court?
Am I wasting my time even thinking along these lines?

 

[CaliforniaSteve]

Just to add my five penneth.

I’ve had our 2008 California since 2009. I remember 12 years ago this happened to us a few times in various locations. Usually at night it sagged and it fired itself up and went back up, frightening the life out of me. I remember it happening on Île de Noirmoutier. A hot place but at night time.

The odd thing that might reassure you is that it just stopped doing it. Hasn’t done it in ten years. No repair. This summer we were in one of the hottest campsites, at least 35c. No sagging.

I will keep my fingers crossed but mine seems to be getting worse rather than better.

 

[CaliforniaCylus]

I'm trying to find out what's really going on with my saggy roof. Because I'm now on my second 3-day sagging trial and I'm finding some odd behaviour. Behavour which we haven't seen despite lots of sagging over the course of the last six months.

So lets recap what it's supposed to do... Roof up for 10 hours, Cali checks if it's deflated and will re-inflate if necessary. If no re-inflation necessary, don't ever check again until roof is closed and re-opened. If re-inflation is necessary, check again 5 hours later. If no re-inflation is necessary then again, stop further checks until the roof is closed and re-opened. Otherwise, keep re-inflating at 5 hour intervals until no more deflation.

So, our real-world, but rather anecdotal use over the last 6 months.

The 10 hour re-inflation happened sporadically; We never once experienced the 5 hour re-inflation.

Hotter conditions resulted in bigger sags. We *think* 10 - 20 cms when daytime temperatures hit over 30 degress and nighttime mid teens.

We think that if you "manually" fix the sagging bellows by closing the roof a couple of cms and then re-inflate, this messes with the software timer which is why often we don't have the 10 hour fix and never the 5 hour fix.

We are now in Spain, and because my other half hurt her wrists in a fall, we felt we wanted running water, a toilet and permanent bed so we are staying in a bungalow. We thought this would be a great time to actually measure what is going on...

I will start another post.

 

[CaliforniaCylus]

First test...

We were measuring at random times and noticing drops of up to 3 cms but also that the sagging was correcting itself. Because we'd never experienced multiple re-inflations we questionned our measuring skills and adandoned the test and started another one. Results so far of Test 2:

Day 1 - 09:30 - Roof elevated - Height OS 102cms NS 101cms
Day 1 - 17:51 - Sag check - Height OS 100cms NS 100cms
Day 1 - 19:31 - Roof corrected the sag (exactly 10 hours after roof elevation)
Day 2 - 09:00 - Visual check, "minor sag"
Day 2 - 20:00 - Sag check - Height OS 96cms NS 95cms
Day 3 - 09:22 - Sag check - Height OS 99cms NS 99cms

So the 5 hour re-inflations must still be happening. The next one is due at 11:31 and I'll be at the vehicle to see what happens.

Some obvious questions here - given VW think a 20cm sag is ok over 3 days...

1. How does a dealer work this out if its auto-correcting every 5 hours? Do they disable the hydraulic pump. If so, maybe I should.
2. Is there a log available which shows each inflation? Maybe I need a Carista or would roof inflations not show on that?

I'll post further updates, also have the vehicle booked into Breeze for this and other warranty work late October...

 

[KevH]

First test...

We were measuring at random times and noticing drops of up to 3 cms but also that the sagging was correcting itself. Because we'd never experienced multiple re-inflations we questionned our measuring skills and adandoned the test and started another one. Results so far of Test 2:

Day 1 - 09:30 - Roof elevated - Height OS 102cms NS 101cms
Day 1 - 17:51 - Sag check - Height OS 100cms NS 100cms
Day 1 - 19:31 - Roof corrected the sag (exactly 10 hours after roof elevation)
Day 2 - 09:00 - Visual check, "minor sag"
Day 2 - 20:00 - Sag check - Height OS 96cms NS 95cms
Day 3 - 09:22 - Sag check - Height OS 99cms NS 99cms

So the 5 hour re-inflations must still be happening. The next one is due at 11:31 and I'll be at the vehicle to see what happens.

Some obvious questions here - given VW think a 20cm sag is ok over 3 days...

1. How does a dealer work this out if its auto-correcting every 5 hours? Do they disable the hydraulic pump. If so, maybe I should.
2. Is there a log available which shows each inflation? Maybe I need a Carista or would roof inflations not show on that?

I'll post further updates, also have the vehicle booked into Breeze for this and other warranty work late October...

Fascinating stuff, I think I need to do a similar ‘scientific’ observation.
Many thanks.

 

[CaliforniaSteve]

I'm trying to find out what's really going on with my saggy roof. Because I'm now on my second 3-day sagging trial and I'm finding some odd behaviour. Behavour which we haven't seen despite lots of sagging over the course of the last six months.

So lets recap what it's supposed to do... Roof up for 10 hours, Cali checks if it's deflated and will re-inflate if necessary. If no re-inflation necessary, don't ever check again until roof is closed and re-opened. If re-inflation is necessary, check again 5 hours later. If no re-inflation is necessary then again, stop further checks until the roof is closed and re-opened. Otherwise, keep re-inflating at 5 hour intervals until no more deflation.

So, our real-world, but rather anecdotal use over the last 6 months.

The 10 hour re-inflation happened sporadically; We never once experienced the 5 hour re-inflation.

Hotter conditions resulted in bigger sags. We *think* 10 - 20 cms when daytime temperatures hit over 30 degress and nighttime mid teens.

We think that if you "manually" fix the sagging bellows by closing the roof a couple of cms and then re-inflate, this messes with the software timer which is why often we don't have the 10 hour fix and never the 5 hour fix.

We are now in Spain, and because my other half hurt her wrists in a fall, we felt we wanted running water, a toilet and permanent bed so we are staying in a bungalow. We thought this would be a great time to actually measure what is going on...

I will start another post.

You have exactly described the problem with my Cali so am interested in your investigation. I guess it is to do with the hydraulic pump. Also, the ram doesn’t seem to go out as far on the bad side.

I notice in a previous post that the ‘20cm rule’ was questioned, ie has it been challenged? I am certainly up for making a challenge but how would that work given that VW seem to hold all of the cards?
Does the usual ‘fit for purpose’ test apply to vehicles, if so the dealer is the point of challenge, perhaps through the small claims court?
Am I wasting my time even thinking along these lines?

I notice in a previous post that the ‘20cm rule’ was questioned, ie has it been challenged? I am certainly up for making a challenge but how would that work given that VW seem to hold all of the cards?
Does the usual ‘fit for purpose’ test apply to vehicles, if so the dealer is the point of challenge, perhaps through the small claims court?
Am I wasting my time even thinking along these lines?

We need an independent expert who can work out what the fault is so we have a specific repair to make a claim for I think. Any experts out there?

 

[Emil]

View attachment 129210Adding to the conversation. My new T6.1, I’ve had it a month, has been having major issues with the roof. Sinks or rather collapses on one side already after 30 minutes. In my case the roof wouldn’t budge. Couldn’t open or close it and had to call roadside assistance, they basically closed it with brute force. It’s been at my local vw camper centre for three days. They admit something is broken but no idea what.

Update from my side. The vans been at my local VW dealer (happens to be a camper centre) twice. They’re going to change the hydraulics. But they can’t get any parts. At least a couple of months wait No can to borrow and I’ve got a trip planned with the kids towards the end of October. It’s a joke. VW claim that since the car can be driven I don’t have many rights. As a consumer in Sweden I’ve got many rights and I won’t let this slip.

 

[Dodge1311]

The test is a lowering of more than 20cm within 72hours, this is not cumulative. VW measure the roof from the datum point, and if it isn’t lower than the 20cm regardless of how many re-raises it meets the specifications. If you lower your roof by 20cm at home its a massive amount of sag compared to what most of us are seeing, so will not be treated as a fault.