Acute problem with Leisure Batteries..

[WelshGas]

Halfway through my Norwegian Trip, and last night was not on EHU. So, lots of driving and I have a Solar Panel. Voltage readings all fine. When I pitched up started the Parking Heater up with engine running and put up roof. Fridge has been running constantly. At 2am, toilet break ( I know too much information) and both Heater and fridge running but when I woke at 6.30am both Off.
Voltage shows 12.5 and 80% on Panel. 2nd voltmeter confirmed 12.5v.
Starting up the Fridge or the Parking Heater as the current draw increases the voltage falls to 10.9v on both voltmeters and the fridge or Parking Heater cuts out.
So my thinking is that either one of the Batteries is knackered or possibly the 50 amp Fuse on the Rear Battery has failed and my capacity has dropped from 150 amp hours to 75.
The wiring connections on the +tve pole of the Rear Battery are made after the Cube Fuse so basically the Mains and Solar are, I think, connected to the Front Battery and only charging it if the Fuse has blown.
Any other thoughts?

 

[Loz]

I thought rear cube fuse as I read this

 

[WelshGas]

I thought rear cube fuse as I read this

I’ve had one gone before, just after I got the van. Fortunately I have Spares, a 50 and a 75 amp. Do you know what they fit now? Is it the 75 or still 50 amp.
The system behaved perfectly when I wild camped in the Norwegian highlands, everything continued working overnight and showed 12.5v and 80% in the morning and even when the Parking Heater fired up and amp draw went up into double digits the voltage only dropped to 12.4 and recovered once the heater was on.

 

[Loz]

75

 

[WelshGas]

75

That might be it. A current surge after that previous night. I’ll pitch up earlier today and have a look. Thanks @Loz

 

[Hotel California]

If the cube fuse blows it certainly would have be a serious cause ....or do they wear in time ?
I carry a spare 80amp fuse that sits under the front seat , but not the cube fuse ....might concider getting one.
Hope you solve it .

 

[altvic]

I hope things go well WG. If I had a similar problem it would be you and Loz I’d turn to, between you I am sure the issue will be solved.

 

[jts46]

If the cube fuse blows it certainly would have be a serious cause ....or do they wear in time ?
I carry a spare 80amp fuse that sits under the front seat , but not the cube fuse ....might concider getting one.
Hope you solve it .

All fuses wear in time, caused by expansion and contraction of the fuse wire. Expansion with current surge then normal operation and fuse wire contracts. So yes they do wear out

 

[jts46]

CUBE FUSES
I think mine came from 12v Planet?

 

[AlanC]

CUBE FUSES
I think mine came from 12v Planet?

Yes, have found that site now and placed an order.
Thanks.

Alan

 

[WelshGas]

Well got the Rear Battery out. Glad I put a strap round it last time, was a doddle this time. The Fuse looked OK but I had a new 75amp one so put this one in. Have got Heater and fridge running but I’m parked next to the Mains Hookup so we’ll see how it goes for a few hours.
If I still have the problem then maybe one of the Batteries has a cell gone or something and running Heater and fridge, lights, iPad, Kindle and phone has exposed a weakness.

 

[WelshGas]

Well the Leisure Batteries failed again at 2am, voltage dropping to 11 v when Parking Heater was firing up and the current draw rose to 10 amps + during startup cycle, and rising to 12.1 when fired up. So I plugged in the Mains and went back to bed.
Both Batteries showed 12.9 v when I checked them yesterday. Current draw with everything Off was 0.2 amps with just Control Panel Screen On. Everything is acting normally otherwise.
So I think one or both Batteries are failing under-load.
Not much point in finding out which one I’ll probably replace both over the summer before next winter.
If I was just running the fridge and lights it would be fine, or the heater as well for an hour or two, but I also like my creature comforts and overnight use is a must without Hookup.

 

[KGCali]

Well the Leisure Batteries failed again at 2am, voltage dropping to 11 v when Parking Heater was firing up and the current draw rose to 10 amps + during startup cycle, and rising to 12.1 when fired up. So I plugged in the Mains and went back to bed.
Both Batteries showed 12.9 v when I checked them yesterday. Current draw with everything Off was 0.2 amps with just Control Panel Screen On. Everything is acting normally otherwise.
So I think one or both Batteries are failing under-load.
Not much point in finding out which one I’ll probably replace both over the summer before next winter.
If I was just running the fridge and lights it would be fine, or the heater as well for an hour or two, but I also like my creature comforts and overnight use is a must without Hookup.

Hope you get it sorted, how long should the leisure batteries last with your usage? My 9 year old ones last about 3-4days with just fridge (@3) and lighting then drop to under 12v, no solar panels.

 

[WelshGas]

Hope you get it sorted, how long should the leisure batteries last with your usage? My 9 year old ones last about 3-4days with just fridge (@3) and lighting then drop to under 12v, no solar panels.

I’m pretty heavy on power usage, just Fridge lights and iPad and 2 phones unlimited with the 100w solar panel. Before the panel at least 5 days. It’s the heater that is power hungry but normally 3 days with heater usage, so I think one of the cells has failed. They charge to 100% capacity and 12.8/9 v but underload fail after a few hours.

 

[WelshGas]

Yippee, there is nothing wrong with my Leisure Battery System. Successfully spent a whole night Off EHU with Heater, fridge and gadgets charging an the Control Panel shows 12.5 v and 80-90% this morning.
This is my theory, but could be complete rubbish as I’m no electrical expert.

The Parking Heater uses maximum power on a cold start. I’ve seen upto -18amps as the Glow Plug fires up. Once started the heater goes into maintenance mode, fan speed dies down and the fuel pump gently ticks away and the system then balances heat input against heat loss burning more or less fuel as required.
My theory is that I had set the heater at too high a level for the ambient temperature ( read heat loss ), so the Heater fired up, heavy power drain, but couldn’t reduce enough on maintenance mode to keep temperature stable so shut down. Temperature drops and Heater fires up again, another heavy power drain, and so on failing to enter a prolonged maintenance mode. So lots of Start/Stops rather than Start/Maintenance giving the Batteries lest time to stabilise between.
On Maintenance the Parking Heater draws about -0.8 amps.
On EHU wouldn’t be a problem but purely on Leisure a problem.

On my first overnight in the Norwegian Highlands it was cold at night, but when the system failed on the 2nd occasion it was about 8c at night and I hadn’t reduced from Level 3 to 2 or 1. Last night I put it on Level 1 and no problems.

 

[Skylark2.0]

Sounds like a good problem solving exercise, Well done for working it out, better than a cryptic crossword!
Thanks for the nice explanation.

 

[WelshGas]

Sounds like a good problem solving exercise, Well done for working it out, better than a cryptic crossword!
Thanks for the nice explanation.

Well it’s a theory.
Trouble is I can’t find any information about running the Parking Heater and Fridge just on the Leisure Batteries, how long for etc:

 

[MattBW]

Good news that all is well.

Perhaps you also had the fridge compressor kicking in at the same time as the heater taking a heavy draw and the battery protection kicking in because of a large voltage drop?

 

[WelshGas]

Good news that all is well.

Perhaps you also had the fridge compressor kicking in at the same time as the heater taking a heavy draw and the battery protection kicking in because of a large voltage drop?

Correct.

 

[sidepod]

Yippee, there is nothing wrong with my Leisure Battery System. Successfully spent a whole night Off EHU with Heater, fridge and gadgets charging an the Control Panel shows 12.5 v and 80-90% this morning.
This is my theory, but could be complete rubbish as I’m no electrical expert.

The Parking Heater uses maximum power on a cold start. I’ve seen upto -18amps as the Glow Plug fires up. Once started the heater goes into maintenance mode, fan speed dies down and the fuel pump gently ticks away and the system then balances heat input against heat loss burning more or less fuel as required.
My theory is that I had set the heater at too high a level for the ambient temperature ( read heat loss ), so the Heater fired up, heavy power drain, but couldn’t reduce enough on maintenance mode to keep temperature stable so shut down. Temperature drops and Heater fires up again, another heavy power drain, and so on failing to enter a prolonged maintenance mode. So lots of Start/Stops rather than Start/Maintenance giving the Batteries lest time to stabilise between.
On Maintenance the Parking Heater draws about -0.8 amps.
On EHU wouldn’t be a problem but purely on Leisure a problem.

On my first overnight in the Norwegian Highlands it was cold at night, but when the system failed on the 2nd occasion it was about 8c at night and I hadn’t reduced from Level 3 to 2 or 1. Last night I put it on Level 1 and no problems.

I’m not sure about this theory?

The heater will take the same amount of juice to start regardless of temperature setting at time of start.
All it does is heat the glow plug to the required temp to ignite the diesel. This may be affected by ambient but I don’t see how ultimate temp requirement can affect this.

Once it’s fired it’s simply a case of pump and fan speed which takes little current.

Discuss.

 

[Amarillo]

I’m not sure about this theory?

The heater will take the same amount of juice to start regardless of temperature setting at time of start.
All it does is heat the glow plug to the required temp to ignite the diesel. This may be affected by ambient but I don’t see how ultimate temp requirement can affect this.

Once it’s fired it’s simply a case of pump and fan speed which takes little current.

Discuss.

I didn’t read WG’s explanation that way.

At low ambient temperature on level 3 the heater will be on for prolonged periods of time but at a higher ambient temperature it will be shutting on and off regularly so a greater drain on the battery.

 

[WelshGas]

I’m not sure about this theory?

The heater will take the same amount of juice to start regardless of temperature setting at time of start.
All it does is heat the glow plug to the required temp to ignite the diesel. This may be affected by ambient but I don’t see how ultimate temp requirement can affect this.

Once it’s fired it’s simply a case of pump and fan speed which takes little current.

Discuss.

Agree, but if heat output is greater than heat loss then the temperature rises and there comes a point where the heater switches off. So when the interior has cooled then the heater switches on again and goes through the whole startup cycle, glow plug included.
However, if you have the correct temperature level set then the maintenance state is prolonged significantly and may last for hours, and as you say, in maintenance mode the power requirements are quit low, certainly not 18 amps and this allows the batteries to recover. At the end of the night the Batteries were showing 12.4v and when I switched off the heater and restarted it 30 mins later the voltage dropped to 11.4 v when drawing the 18 amps.
So my conclusion is they will cope with summer use, off EHU, with just Fridge and lights but I’ll probably change them for my next Norway trip and possibly search for larger than 75amp Leisure Batteries.

 

[willwander]

I have a 2011 SE, with recently replaced leisure batteries.
I'm not sure I quite understand your theory, so forgive me. However...
I've had the fridge and heater (on setting 3-4) running constantly, off leisure batteries, for 3 to 4 days at a time. Done this many times over the winter.

 

[Loz]

I think the theory is quite straightforward; it needs to cycle more often to keep the temperature at a higher setting.

 

[WelshGas]

I have a 2011 SE, with recently replaced leisure batteries.
I'm not sure I quite understand your theory, so forgive me. However...
I've had the fridge and heater (on setting 3-4) running constantly, off leisure batteries, for 3 to 4 days at a time. Done this many times over the winter.

Running constantly is fine. Current draw is relatively low and constant, just running fans and fuel pump.
It’s the starting up, running the glow plug that draws substantially more power.
When I was at altitude the ambient temperature was close to freezing and Parking Heater ran all night, no problem.
At sea level the ambient temperature was closer to 10c. I didn’t change the Heater Level and it didn’t run all night. It was constantly starting, exceeding the set temperature and switching off and the restarting. That was the problem.