California name

[David Eccles]

just wondering where the forum draws the line on this as Westfalia first introduced the name for its T3 range late on to replace Joker! :lol:
it's interesting that VW nicked the name when it cut its ties with Westfalia...so Westfalia had to go with Club Joker for its new T5 model!

 

[James]

[*]

just wondering where the forum draws the line on this as Westfalia first introduced the name for its T3 range late on to replace Joker! :lol:
it's interesting that VW nicked the name when it cut its ties with Westfalia...so Westfalia had to go with Club Joker for its new T5 model!

True. My knowledge isn't as extensive as yours David but I covered this in a post. Lets not forget though the T25 California was sold along side the Atlantic. So the new Westy could have been the Atlantic lol.

James

 

[choplee]

Westfalia did stop using the name as on of their spec's on the T4 and was seen that they didn't convert a T5 up until lately ,so name up for grab's ,but not sure vw would want joker on their buses ... ...

 

[beardie]

just wondering where the forum draws the line on this as Westfalia first introduced the name for its T3 range late on to replace Joker! :lol:
it's interesting that VW nicked the name when it cut its ties with Westfalia...so Westfalia had to go with Club Joker for its new T5 model!

I am sure VW and westfalia lawyers sorted out the use of trade names etc when they cut ties. Would be interesting to know if vw licensed it to westfalia at first or not.

 

[ChrisandPenney52]

VW did buy Rolls Royce Motors without the right to use the RR logo ... they ended up selling the manufacturing arm to BMW, who had the right to the badge. What's in a name? Quite a lot.

Maybe the California name was never owned by Westfalia, since all of the Californias have always been on a VW chassis. Oh, and Ferarri have also been using the California name since 1957.

But back to your question - about whether this is a T25 Westfalia forum? Mrs Chris and Penney suggested that it's about cultural roots - if you feel you are part of the California history and heritage then join the party, but expect technical advice and support about T4s and T5s, as this is where the critical mass is. As to attending meets, this will be a suck it and see issue, depending on the theme. The one thing that's essential is that the VW T5 California is the cornerstone and litmus test of relevance to the forum.

 

[James]

If I owned a T25 Atlantic I couldn't join the forum but if I owned a T25 California I could. Yet both the Atlantic and California are T25's converted by Westfalia. The Atlantic being the top end van.

The name is not incidental but it was only one model name, principally the T2s were Westys

James

 

[ChrisandPenney52]

Maybe my post is a bit muddled, mixing up a discussion of brand names and a discussion of forum membership. The first bit was a bit of fun and the second just a stream of consciousness. But I think the Atlantic qualifies as contributing to the history and heritage so for me it's in. But you don't have to own anything to belong to the forum - just enjoy good company!

 

[ChrisandPenney52]

[*]

just wondering where the forum draws the line on this as Westfalia first introduced the name for its T3 range late on to replace Joker! :lol:
it's interesting that VW nicked the name when it cut its ties with Westfalia...so Westfalia had to go with Club Joker for its new T5 model!

True. My knowledge isn't as extensive as yours David but I covered this in a post. Lets not forget though the T25 California was sold along side the Atlantic. So the new Westy could have been the Atlantic lol.

James

... which is this one I guess

viewtopic.php?f=111&t=2398&p=21699&hilit=westfalia#p21699

 

[choplee]

i've been a V-dubber years ,but not as long as others i know and every step of the transporter ladder there has been and still are issues with everything about what they are ....
some i agree with and some i don't, but being a VW California club/forum would mean you either have one or you have a very big interest in getting one ,as there are hundreds of forums out there that are more general to the vw scene ,as well as others like the VW califronia club that is a vehicle specific club. If this was a vw transporter club/forum then i would expect all types of transporters on the forum.

(probably off the topic ,but what the hell ) :smile

 

[James]

Maybe my post is a bit muddled, mixing up a discussion of brand names and a discussion of forum membership. The first bit was a bit of fun and the second just a stream of consciousness. But I think the Atlantic qualifies as contributing to the history and heritage so for me it's in. But you don't have to own anything to belong to the forum - just enjoy good company!

I thought your posts made a very good point

 

[Leo K]

The Joker was, as I understand it, marketed by VW for Westfalia. The California on the other hand was build by Westfalia for VW. A different commercial policy. If this is correct, the California brand would have been owned by VW from the its introduction in 1989. As were the Atlantic and the Florida (LT based) brands.
Some info: http://www.vw-t3-atlantic.de/english/At ... ANTIC.html

 

[David Eccles]

The Joker was, as I understand it, marketed by VW for Westfalia. The California on the other hand was build by Westfalia for VW. A different commercial policy. If this is correct, the California brand would have been owned by VW from the its introduction in 1989. As were the Atlantic and the Florida (LT based) brands.
Some info: http://www.vw-t3-atlantic.de/english/At ... ANTIC.html

I don't think this is quite correct re VWs involvement....VW licensed Westfalia to build campers (ie carrying VW warranty) from early fifties and were happy to have campers fitted out by Westy (and later others like Devon) which were then marketed through their own dealerships as well as available direct from convertors. In 70s VW brochures and dealerships offered both a Devon and a Westfalia conversion but no mention was made of origins so some people prob thought they were VW made campers...with the intro of the T3 Westfalia called their range the Joker, which was rebranded as California (1988) and Atlantic (1989). The T4 Westfalias carried the name California Coach with variants like Exclusive, Generation still prefixed California. Till the T5, the special relationship between VW and Westfalia meant Westfalia got to see and work with prototypes of new generations. This practice ceased when rival conglomerate took over Westy.
I have been told by sources inside VW that for the T5 camping conversion they also wanted new materials and some radically diiferent design and build concepts in keeping with their new T5 platform, but Westfalia were still very traditional and unable to do so. Couple the takeover by rivals with this and VW finally then decide to go down their own factory fitted camper route and the VW California is born, using aluminium not wood for cabinets amongst other stuff. As to who originally retained name rights etc that is something I now will be digging away at cos I never really thought about that side...whatever the truth VW did not supply Westy with T5 bases so they focused on other marques. The new Westfalia Club Joker T5 is named so to play the heritage card and, as it is a totally different animal to their Cali, VW are happy to co-operate and support it (well, so they told me!) They play down the 2003 break methinks! I dont think it would have been a happy smiley time!
And lets face it the name California carries associations with sun and a certain free wheeling easy (and rich) lifestyle that the name Atlantic lacks!
But..whats in a name..a rose by any name would smell as sweet..or would it?
PS I think I was a bit TIC when starting this thread!

 

[Leo K]

I'm sure you'll let us know if you find out more, David. Some of us enjoy history. And try to discover why (still using the T3/25 basis) they changed from Joker to California if it was for other reasons than I hypothized.

 

[James]

I'm sure you'll let us know if you find out more, David. Some of us enjoy history. And try to discover why (still using the T3/25 basis) they changed from Joker to California if it was for other reasons than I hypothized.

The T25 California was a camper designed to be used during the summer months hence the California name and the Atlantic was designed to be used all year round and came with extra kit as standard.

Westy never changed from Joker to California it was a change to different models, California and Atlantic, a change that give two distinct options for the buyer.

Interestingly the last T25's were Vanagons and badged as such. These were only Vanagons sold Europe.

James

 

[choplee]

california style

 

[David Eccles]

yes spot on James....restyled models with 2 diff purposes / markets bit like Beach and Cali T5s
I wonder if the Vanagon badging was due to the N American export market potential sales as they only know T3s as Vanagons...
PS T25 is a UK only unofficial designation never used by VW...a T25 would be the 25th generation of bus using VWs system!
but thats a whole diff can of worms to open :lol:

 

[TwentyOneThirtyFive]

The T4 Westfalias carried the name California Coach with variants like Exclusive, Generation still prefixed California.

The earliest T4 Westies were just called Californias. The Coach bit was added later, although I don't think there was any real difference or reason? Maybe the marketing department had a slow friday or something.

Anyway, hopefully they'll be all sorts of T3(T25)/T4 Westies and T5 VW calis at the CotF that I can nose around and chat to the owners about their adventures.

dan

 

[James]

yes spot on James....restyled models with 2 diff purposes / markets bit like Beach and Cali T5s
I wonder if the Vanagon badging was due to the N American export market potential sales as they only know T3s as Vanagons...
PS T25 is a UK only unofficial designation never used by VW...a T25 would be the 25th generation of bus using VWs system!
but thats a whole diff can of worms to open :lol:

Hi David

Yes, used to own a Westy Vanagon. Mine was the Multivan Layout. The Vanagon's also came in full camper guise and part camper like the Beach but with a wardrobe.

I prefer T3 - I thought T25 was something to do with a chassis number?????

James

 

[David Eccles]

yes the origin of term T25 is another one of those enigmas with a few possible explanations such as part number prefixes of 25 and early chassis number prefixes of 25...I guess we'll never know for sure! Its interesting that the Facelift T5s are known as T5b by VW but already in UK some people seem to have adopted T5.1 for some reason....I even saw an company calling them T6s on their website till I pointed it out to them!
Look fgwd to meeting you for some buffing at the Farm event!

 

[choplee]

I also see them called T5.5 and seen GP sometimes

 

[Leo K]

1988 October: VW presents its first campervan on the Essen Caravan Salon. That’s how VW puts it in the booklet 40 Jahre VW Transporter (1). So we may say that the California was a regular VW from the start, while the Joker remained an authorized conversion. In its press statement at the introduction of the California (2), VW said that it would be considerably cheaper than the comparable Westfalia model. Another important advantage for the customer, VW claimed, was that car and conversion could now be ordered together and were both guaranteed by VW.

So much is clear. However, I wonder how this worked out during the next 15 years of VW-Westfalia cooperation. There is often little attention for the commercial aspects of car history, therefore much remains in the dark. For the short term, some (3) think that the rather basic California was no competition for Westfalia’s Club/Joker. I also observed that at the time of the introduction VW referred to the California as a special model (Sondermodell), suggesting that the availability would be temporary. But the upgrade Atlantic, introduced a year later, was certainly a threat to the Westfalia models still in production (vwpix.org has several Westfalia price lists for model year 1990).

Finally, the Vanagon. The German Wikipedia (4), after presenting the California as VW’s first own camper van, adds: VW had already successfully tried this policy on the US market for some years ... the relationship (of the California) with the Vanagon Camper was also made clear by the use of the label Vanagon on the backside of the California. If that’s correct, the Vanagon would also, like the California, be more VW than Westfalia. And, to return to the original question, it might well belong here. Even air-cooled!

(1) http://www.vwpix.org/eng/ - archive/VW bus T3/Pressemappen
(2) the same
(3) http://www.spiegel.de/auto/aktuell/20-j ... 74992.html
(4) http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/California ... semobil%29

 

[choplee]

The T4 Westfalias carried the name California Coach with variants like Exclusive, Generation still prefixed California.

The earliest T4 Westies were just called Californias. The Coach bit was added later, although I don't think there was any real difference or reason? Maybe the marketing department had a slow friday or something.

Anyway, hopefully they'll be all sorts of T3(T25)/T4 Westies and T5 VW calis at the CotF that I can nose around and chat to the owners about their adventures.

dan

Not sure you'll see any T25's at the cotf unless they are in the campsite carpark and visiting for the day ,like any other " T "'s unless they are vw california's ( trade excluded ) lol

 

[James]

The T4 Westfalias carried the name California Coach with variants like Exclusive, Generation still prefixed California.

The earliest T4 Westies were just called Californias. The Coach bit was added later, although I don't think there was any real difference or reason? Maybe the marketing department had a slow friday or something.

Anyway, hopefully they'll be all sorts of T3(T25)/T4 Westies and T5 VW calis at the CotF that I can nose around and chat to the owners about their adventures.

dan

Not sure you'll see any T25's at the cotf unless they are in the campsite carpark and visiting for the day ,like any other " T "'s unless they are vw california's ( trade excluded ) lol

Lee

You won't see any T25's because they'll be at the side of the road waiting for the AA to turn up.

Vanagon is just the US name for T3 formed out of van and wagon. Followed similar pattern of euro VW's.

The Westys were sold just the same. US vans often with a lot more equipment and marketed as a family vehicle.

There are some other differences between Euro and US T3's but most of these are evident on the final years of production.

James

 

[David Eccles]

don't believe everything VW claim!!!!
it's a bit like their restored Split Panel Van in the museum that carries a 1949 label and all the pics of it with 1949 on the number plate on press site and at exhibitions...in fact this was #000010, one of three rolling off production line on 8 March 1950, and it certainly is NOT a 1949 prototype as held up to be! And if you look at VW brochures from 70s you see VW marketing 2 forms of what are called "The Volkswagen Camper" - in fact they were a Westy and a Devon but this is never mentioned at all!
Sondermodel was used to describe all Westies by VW from about 1957 (and prefixed SO eg SO42 camper) and listed with the special body conversions...this carried on right thru to T3 Westies which were grouped with all the special bodies under heading Sonderfahrzeuge and SO prefix dropped.

 

[TwentyOneThirtyFive]

You won't see any T25's because they'll be at the side of the road waiting for the AA to turn up.

Feels a bit unfair, I see a lot of wedges out camping and don't see all that many at the side of the road. Are they really that bad? I've never owned one, so have no direct experience.

By comparison, my super reliable T4 has been rescued twice in the last year, has failed on the driveway two times, and has required last minute runs to GSF before big trips on a couple of occasions. It also fails to keep oil on the inside of the engine on a regular basis.

dan