Does the 907 gas freeze or work well in winter

[Little owl1963]

Been told butane 907 does not work well below 0 oc, any ideas / tips .
Is it worth insulating the bottle storage area ?
Any users had any issues at minus say minus 1 to minus 5 degrees ?

Would of thought volkswagon would made universal so could change to propane in winter ? Is this possible ?

 

[yossarian]

Been told butane 907 does not work well below 0 oc, any ideas / tips .

• Open the cupboard and use the heater. (From elsewhere on the forum)
• Convert to propane.

Would of thought volkswagon would made universal so could change to propane in winter ? Is this possible ?

VW supply a butane safety valve which will discharge butane vapour at about 14 Bar whereas the equivalent propane one opens at around 30 bar. Recent cookers are rated for propane and the 30 millibar regulator is rated for both butane and propane.

You'll find propane conversion topics on here and on caliboard. TLDR; the safety valve would be advised if you plan to have propane on board for summer. 907s are a grey area some are stamped propane some aren't (some are marked 'malange' which to me suggests LPG). The leisure gas bottles look interesting especially as they are probably certified for LPG as there does not appear to be a butane only certification in the UK. I'm sure others will have differing opinions or better knowledge of the local regulatory scene.

If you have a spare bottle, as I do, you should store it outside when you sleep. There is very little vapour pressure after a night outside in 0 deg if the bottle contains butane.

See pg 33 on the attachment for safety valves. The regulator is in there too I think.

 

[WelshGas]

Been told butane 907 does not work well below 0 oc, any ideas / tips .
Is it worth insulating the bottle storage area ?
Any users had any issues at minus say minus 1 to minus 5 degrees ?

Would of thought volkswagon would made universal so could change to propane in winter ? Is this possible ?

To some extent the gas storage is insulated, in the middle of the water tank.
Personally not had any problems in the UK or Norway, where May time night temperatures dropped to -10c on my trip this year.

 

[kurienp]

To some extent the gas storage is insulated, in the middle of the water tank.
Personally not had any problems in the UK or Norway, where May time night temperatures dropped to -10c on my trip this year.

Similar, however, it does burn a bit slower. We have a small portable camping burner in the van, with a primus winter gas can - which is a mix of propane and butane (this is just in case) and it also helps when you want to cook outside in -5 Deg C(just for the fun of it!)

 

[Cali Phillip]

Similar, however, it does burn a bit slower. We have a small portable camping burner in the van, with a primus winter gas can - which is a mix of propane and butane (this is just in case) and it also helps when you want to cook outside in -5 Deg C(just for the fun of it!)

View attachment 102515

good plan that and as a back up for gas running our or general gas system failure.

 

[Stu@rt]

Would this help? I have the Campingaz cover on my spare - purely to stop it doing any damage when in the boot, but you cant find them anywhere now. Just wondered if this would help with insulation? Assuming it still fits in the locker with it on of course?

Pardon our interruption...

 

[B J G]

Would this help? I have the Campingaz cover on my spare - purely to stop it doing any damage when in the boot, but you cant find them anywhere now. Just wondered if this would help with insulation? Assuming it still fits in the locker with it on of course?

Pardon our interruption...

I'd have thought that the pipe from the bottle to the stove was at most risk of freezing when the stove is being used. An open cupboard door with heating on might help.

 

[yossarian]

I'd have thought that the pipe from the bottle to the stove was at most risk of freezing when the stove is being used. An open cupboard door with heating on might help.

The problem is generally not butane freezing, rather reduced vapour pressure below the minimum input of the regulator. Butane will remain in a liquid / vapour phase down to around 135 Kelvin or -140 Celcius.

Would this help? I have the Campingaz cover on my spare - purely to stop it doing any damage when in the boot, but you cant find them anywhere now. Just wondered if this would help with insulation?

When your cooker is running butane (or propane or a mix) is evaporating inside the cylinder which reduces the temperature of the remaining liquid. The bottle will absorb heat from its surroundings and an equilibrium will eventually be established.

Insulating the bottle may raise the bottle starting temperature but will reduce the equilibrium temperature. Below a certain equilibrium temperature cooker performance will degrade and eventually stop.

As with all of these things a good experimental setup might reveal surprises but my gut feel is that the insulation will not be helpful.

 

[WelshGas]

As long as the water in the water tank, surrounding the gas locker, remains liquid , the fridge is ON, then the gas bottle and pipe run to the cooker will definitely be above 2-3c and combined with a heating source within the vehicle, Parking Heater, there will not be any problems.

It is more of a problem in Caravans and Motorhomes where the Gas Locker is external to the Habitation/Heater passenger area.

 

[Cali Phillip]

As long as the water in the water tank, surrounding the gas locker, remains liquid , the fridge is ON, then the gas bottle and pipe run to the cooker will definitely be above 2-3c and combined with a heating source within the vehicle, Parking Heater, there will not be any problems.

It is more of a problem in Caravans and Motorhomes where the Gas Locker is external to the Habitation/Heater passenger area.

The external gas is a good point, not had an issue to -5c myself.

 

[GrahamB]

The problem is generally not butane freezing, rather reduced vapour pressure below the minimum input of the regulator. Butane will remain in a liquid / vapour phase down to around 135 Kelvin or -140 Celcius.


When your cooker is running butane (or propane or a mix) is evaporating inside the cylinder which reduces the temperature of the remaining liquid. The bottle will absorb heat from its surroundings and an equilibrium will eventually be established.

Insulating the bottle may raise the bottle starting temperature but will reduce the equilibrium temperature. Below a certain equilibrium temperature cooker performance will degrade and eventually stop.

As with all of these things a good experimental setup might reveal surprises but my gut feel is that the insulation will not be helpful.

Yes - my experience is that propane/butane cartridges will do the same and quickly get cold enough for gas pressure to fall away even in moderate (above zero) conditions. So I wouldn’t say they are a reliable back up if it is very cold. Above freezing, putting the canister in a pan of water can help because it acts as a heat sink and slows the rate of cooling and pressure drop. This is also why the Cali has the water tank around the the gas cylinder, enabling it to work in colder conditions. But you really have to go multi-fuel MSR (or similar) to cook reliably outdoors below zero.

 

[chockswahay]

We have had a couple of times below zero (OK only just) but the gas worked fine although maybe a little lower pressure. I agree with @WelshGas the water tank keeps the gas cylinder insulated to some extent. It your water hasn’t frozen then your gas will work