Does your 2005 T5 have a Check Engine/Exhaust Emissions light with "Ignition On"?

[Doug Curran]

My 2005 German (imported to Canada) T5 California does not light the #16 Exhaust Emissions warning light on startup. I have had the ECU tested and the instrument cluster repaired (sent to England) and there are no fault codes showing. The VW Factory Workshop Manual notes all warning lights that are "Ignition On" activated, but the Exhaust Emissions/Engine Check Light is not noted as one of them. See attached photo. British Columbia inspection requirements indicate the "check Engine Light" must light for 2 seconds as self-check on startup. I am unable to get roadworthy without this function. Does anyone else have a 2005 T5 (2.5 cyl.) where the #16 engine light does not come on at 'Ignition On'? My local VW dealer is unable to find a fault. Am at wits end with what is now a $45,000 ashtray.

 

[Loz]

Is the lamp faulty?
Can you take it apart and test?

 

[Doug Curran]

Is the lamp faulty?
Can you take it apart and text?

Hello Loz, I sent the entire instrument cluster to Autotronics in Leicester, England for repair. They replaced the #16 (Exhaust/Engine Check Light) LED and the centre Liquid Crystal Display. Their repair report states that unit was fully tested and passed. Installed by local VW dealer. As noted, the VW Workshop Manual described the activation mode for all Warning Lights but does not indicate that #16 Exhasut system is lit on "Ignition On" as a check light. I had been told that some of these T5s did not use a check engine light and the description in the manual makes no note of it being lit "on ignition" - as is done for #17 (see photo). All other "Ignition On" lights are noted specifically as to their activation mode.

 

[Loz]

So you simply need proof that there is no lamp test at start to get past your test?(will they accept that?)
Can you change the coding to north America and see if it then does?
how about also creating a fault to bring it on to prove it works?

 

[Loz]

@2into1 possibly has a similar model to you and may be able to help with a photo of the instruments test at ignition on?

anyone else with a 174 help?

 

[sapto]

We have a 2.5 TDI, 131 hp: I take a picture when starting the engine today. Does this help?
Cheers

 

[sapto]

Started

and after a few sec everything went dark:

 

[WelshGas]

Started

and after a few sec everything went dark:

So no Engine Check light on Ignition On.
As per the Manual @Doug Curran posted.
I cannot see them changing that between 2005 and 2008, adding it yes, but not removing it.

 

[2into1]

@2into1 possibly has a similar model to you and may be able to help with a photo of the instruments test at ignition on?

anyone else with a 174 help?

Not sure this helps, as I have an emissions workshop warning for a glow plug fault, but here goes. (note I'm LHD too).
Initially I get the first image, then it quickly moves to the 2nd image. Hope it helps.

 

[Doug Curran]

Started

and after a few sec everything went dark:

Hi Sapto, Thank you for the work on this . Extremely helpful! late last night I finally solved the problem: it is one born out of language (German), an orphan import (never seen before. by the VW mechanics here), and truly stupid design (German engineers). The problem all along is that the GLOW PLUG LAMP IS DOING DUAL DUTY AS MIL!! This fact is not mentioned is not mentioned in my German Owner's manual and is only referred to obliquely in the English version of the VW Factory Workshop Manual.
In the VW workshop manual, Section 90,P.83: #6 it states "Glow Period warning lamp K29 - "Lights Up"-glow plug system switched on **"Flashes"-engine fault". The only symbol for this dual function lamp is the 'wiggly worm' of the glow plug, found on the left side tachometer (as illustrated in your photograph. The "engine block" warning lamp, #16 "Exhaust Emissions" -"Lights up" only for exhaust system faults (lambda probe or cat converter/DPF) and lights only when triggered by fault in that system.
No where is the function spelled out clearly and in the correct technical language, ie; 'MIL' as used elsewhere in reference to engine diagnostics. Universally, no one else is dense enough to use an "engine block" symbol as for other than a Engine Check Light/MIL function.

I finally found definitive proof of the same problem in a Dutch online forum and coupled with your images , I believe I can finally - although not without incurring significant costs - put the matter to rest. At least I have wrung any imminent faults out of the ECU and the known pesky instrument cluster.

cheers and thanks to you, Sapto, and others who helped here. Greatly appreciated! Doug

 

[westfalia]

Here is what lights i see when i turn the ignition on.
And when its running i see this.

2006.

 

[ThomasHJ]

I'll help you out @westfalia. I'm an expert on this! The problem is, your handbrake is still on. Try taking it off and see if the car will drive.

 

[westfalia]

I'll help you out @westfalia. I'm an expert on this! The problem is, your handbrake is still on. Try taking it off and see if the car will drive.

The handbrake is always on during these lockdown
days, i pulled it up tight with both hands just to be sure.

 

[Doug Curran]

Hello Westfalia, Sapto, Jane, Thomas HJ and others,
Thank you all for providing images of your start up light sequences. Here is mine. From what I can observe from the responses, most of us do not have operating CELs at start up. How do people get their vehicles to pass the MOT test without this operating? My impression is that the UK and EU are far more stringent on these matters. In British columbia, once one passes the 'Provincial ' roadworthy you're 'in' and no more ongoing testing of any kind.

I sent my ECU to a UK shop for testing/repair - it came back as "No Faults Found". Next I sent the instrument cluster to another UK shop. They replaced the centre LCD screen and all LED warning lamps, returned the cluster "repaired, tested, all functions working". But as the photo shows this is not so.
Without faulting (joke) any of the repair shops, it's apparent that the overall system and checks are not fully working. No system faults (wiring, fuses all meter-checked) are revealed, but still no CEL. Neither VW dealer, Ross Tech or Otis diagnostic systems are able to determine or place a fault.

Outside of passing the roadworthy, driving with an inoperative DPF and system controls could result in a destroyed engine. How do people handle this situation? I'm looking for solutions. Beautiful van, crap electronics.

cheers, Doug

 

[2into1]

I don’t think the regulations are anywhere near as tight in the uk as you anticipate. An airbag warning light would trigger a fail, but beyond that, I think they just rely on the exhaust emissions test, done with a sniffer.

 

[WelshGas]

Hello Westfalia, Sapto, Jane, Thomas HJ and others,
Thank you all for providing images of your start up light sequences. Here is mine. From what I can observe from the responses, most of us do not have operating CELs at start up. How do people get their vehicles to pass the MOT test without this operating? My impression is that the UK and EU are far more stringent on these matters. In British columbia, once one passes the 'Provincial ' roadworthy you're 'in' and no more ongoing testing of any kind.

I sent my ECU to a UK shop for testing/repair - it came back as "No Faults Found". Next I sent the instrument cluster to another UK shop. They replaced the centre LCD screen and all LED warning lamps, returned the cluster "repaired, tested, all functions working". But as the photo shows this is not so.
Without faulting (joke) any of the repair shops, it's apparent that the overall system and checks are not fully working. No system faults (wiring, fuses all meter-checked) are revealed, but still no CEL. Neither VW dealer, Ross Tech or Otis diagnostic systems are able to determine or place a fault.

Outside of passing the roadworthy, driving with an inoperative DPF and system controls could result in a destroyed engine. How do people handle this situation? I'm looking for solutions. Beautiful van, crap electronics.

cheers, Doug

View attachment 73079

Disclaimer - I’m not an Autoelectrician or an expert in electronics, but @Loz or others more knowledgeable than me might be able to confirm if this is possible.
The Authorities want to see the Mil light come on at Ignition On?

Could you wire one of the lights that does come on to the Mil light using a 1 way Diode, so the Mil light comes on with all the other lights at Ignition On and then goes Off with engine start WITHOUT altering its monitoring function so that it would work correctly if there was a fault.
The downside is that it would also come on if the warning light used to provide the power supply was triggered eg: Brake Pad Wear, was triggered due to worn brake pads then you would get 2 warning lights.

Could this work?

Then once the Authorities were happy you could remove the link.

 

[Doug Curran]

I don’t think the regulations are anywhere near as tight in the uk as you anticipate. An airbag warning light would trigger a fail, but beyond that, I think they just rely on the exhaust emissions test, done with a sniffer.

Thanks, 2into1,
Here, they don't attach a sniffer, at least for a"new to province" roadworthy. If the CEL self-check 'on start' and then goes out, then you've passed

Disclaimer - I’m not an Autoelectrician or an expert in electronics, but @Loz or others more knowledgeable than me might be able to confirm if this is possible.
The Authorities want to see the Mil light come on at Ignition On?

Could you wire one of the lights that does come on to the Mil light using a 1 way Diode, so the Mil light comes on with all the other lights at Ignition On and then goes Off with engine start WITHOUT altering its monitoring function so that it would work correctly if there was a fault.
The downside is that it would also come on if the warning light used to provide the power supply was triggered eg: Brake Pad Wear, was triggered due to worn brake pads then you would get 2 warning lights.

Could this work?

Disclaimer - I’m not an Autoelectrician or an expert in electronics, but @Loz or others more knowledgeable than me might be able to confirm if this is possible.
The Authorities want to see the Mil light come on at Ignition On?

Could you wire one of the lights that does come on to the Mil light using a 1 way Diode, so the Mil light comes on with all the other lights at Ignition On and then goes Off with engine start WITHOUT altering its monitoring function so that it would work correctly if there was a fault.
The downside is that it would also come on if the warning light used to provide the power supply was triggered eg: Brake Pad Wear, was triggered due to worn brake pads then you would get 2 warning lights.

Could this work?

Then once the Authorities were happy you could remove the link.

Hello Paul, Yes, something similar, proceeding. D.
Then once the Authorities were happy you could remove the link.

for that emissions segment. No CEL check cycle - no one will touch you.

 

[westfalia]

Outside of passing the roadworthy, driving with an inoperative DPF and system controls could result in a destroyed engine. How do people handle this situation? I'm looking for solutions. Beautiful van, crap electronics.

Silly question Doug, but are you sure that your van has a DPF fitted?

I think the DPF might have been introduced first in 2005 and on your picture
of the dash i don't see where the warning light is.

 

[Doug Curran]

Silly question Doug, but are you sure that your van has a DPF fitted?

I think the DPF might have been introduced first in 2005 and on your picture
of the dash i don't see where the warning light is.

Westfalia, Not a silly question. My T5 is a German version, 7HM variant, which was DPF equipped. UK models were only supplied with DPF starting in 2006. Position #16 on instrument panel.

 

[sapto]

Silly question Doug, but are you sure that your van has a DPF fitted?

I think the DPF might have been introduced first in 2005 and on your picture
of the dash i don't see where the warning light is.

Had to check and it might be a good question: It doesn't depend on the year sometimes.

 

[Doug Curran]

Had to check and it might be a good question: It doesn't depend on the year sometimes.

Sapto, Mine is a BNZ, 7HM variant. German production configuration. Follows your posted schedule. My next check is to ensure that the ECUTesting people didn't accidentally turn off the DPF signal when I sent the unit in for testing, thinking that it should not be there. I had made clear to them that mine was a Germany configured unit. The ECU was returned to me as "No Faults Found", which one would assume covered such a possibility, if they had determined that that it was improperly programmed.

 

[WelshGas]

Westfalia, Not a silly question. My T5 is a German version, 7HM variant, which was DPF equipped. UK models were only supplied with DPF starting in 2006. Position #16 on instrument panel.

View attachment 73100

So, are you now saying your vehicle should have the light coming on with Ignition On and that you have a fault?

Have you been able to get the light to come on by possibly disconnecting one of the DPF sensors?

 

[Doug Curran]

Paul,
Several points of the whole issue:
- The VW Workshop Manual states that Light #6/Glow Plug also "Flashes" if detecting an engine fault, but is not specific as to what the scope of that indicated fault entails. I had assumed/hoped it meant operating as a CEL.
- Engine Control Unit was fully tested by the UK repair specialist and declared "No Faults Found"
- With instrument cluster repaired and tested by Autotronics, cluster declared "Fully functioning".
- Removing, first MAF sensor, and then DPF differential pressure sensor (at DPF) fails to elicit lit CEL
- Am in process of revisiting ECU testing and workaround for cluster.

 

[vwsween]

Mine is a AXE first registered 19/5/06 in UK. One of the option codes (or PR codes) is 0GE showing it to be only to EU3 emissions standard. That standard remained legal in Europe up to Dec 06 for first registrations.

 

[westfalia]

- The VW Workshop Manual states that Light #6/Glow Plug also "Flashes" if detecting an engine fault, but is not specific as to what the scope of that indicated fault entails. I had assumed/hoped it meant operating as a CEL.

My glow plug light has flashed a few times,
3 times for the Lambda sensor, once, it was knackered and twice chewed through-rodents.

It has also flashed when one of these sensors needed replacing.