Fuel problems where do you get your fuel from

[Pete Wilkins]

From reading other threads on here ( EGR) and other stuff in the local news ref fuel contamination and the problems with Supermarkets V top Oil companies.
I thought I would ask the following questions, in it's own thread, I have never worried where I got my fuel in the past but should I now change that practice.

Has anyone found a fuel that suits the Cali engine better than others.

When at the Cirencester meet we had the pleasure of talking to the owners of the Red Burito, who said that the modern California engine would probably not be able to make the journey they did due to the bad fuel in some of the countries they went through, and he told me of a German who had to ship his new Cali back to Germany due to the fuel problems they kept encountering.

Below is some of other interesting links I found, that made worrying reading, and posible added costs for owners of modern engines.

http://www.aa-academy.com/Training/Lear ... DPF%29.asp
http://jalopnik.com/5968228/are-fuel-pu ... el-engines
http://www.fleetnews.co.uk/news/2012/1/ ... rol/42044/

 

[Meoncoast]

Will read your links later.
When we picked up our Cali in 2012 and popping into the service department I asked about long life oil and at that time the service manager said that he would recommend we run on no supper market fuel as they had found some t5 owners had issues with cheaper fuel. So since new our van has only had "branded" fuel mainly shell I have cost only 1 or 2p her litre more that our local Tesco's I am happy to do it this was (since having the Cali my fathers car broke down with an issue with Morrison bad petrol and they paid for repair and last month Tesco in Bournmouth area {not to far away from us} has sold contaminated fuel) Individual choice at the end of the day, now done 30k with no issues our is also our daily drive

 

[18hunts]

Having just read these three articles I see nothing in them that relates to fuel quality.
What does come over is what we should already know and should have been advised about when purchasing our Cali, 'don't do short journeys'.
I have done over 200,000 miles in both UK, France and Spain using predominantly supermarket fuel and have never had an issue. I will be surprised if somebody doesn't come back at me and say they have had, or know someone who has had a problem with supermarket fuel. There's always someone.
What I would say is always give your vehicle a chance to get up to temperature and run it above 40mph at that speed for at least 10 minutes and most importantly, with any fuel station, if you see the tanker there filling the petrol station tanks - drive on and go somewhere else. They will be stirring up all the crap and crude on the tank floor and that can give you problems.

 

[Stu]

The problem is that when buying fuel as a consumer none of us really know what we are getting. There is an element of expectation that when sourcing our fuel from one of the majors that it will be a regulated product. Generally this is true.

With the supermarkets I think they buy from bunker traders and it becomes a matter of economics so largely will depend on who's got what available at the time and for what price.

There are a number of factors that will affect the product, base oil quality, additive package and even storage/age of the product - A real lottery I'm afraid.

 

[KernowLad]

The problem is that when buying fuel as a consumer none of us really know what we are getting. There is an element of expectation that when sourcing our fuel from one of the majors that it will be a regulated product. Generally this is true.

With the supermarkets I think they buy from bunker traders and it becomes a matter of economics so largely will depend on who's got what available at the time and for what price.

There are a number of factors that will affect the product, base oil quality, additive package and even storage/age of the product - A real lottery I'm afraid.

Totally correct.

Also these "super" fuels are often a complete waste of money too because they degrade (octane levels for petrols, cetane for diesel) quicker than the "lesser" fuels and are often hanging about longer as they sell less.

 

[Andy]

All petrol stations sell fuel that meets given standard irespective of weather they are one of the main feul cos or supermarket.
There is no need to avoid sites having a delivery all fuel will be filtered before it gets to the pump & your vehicle.

 

[18hunts]

I accept that fuel should be filtered before point of delivery however I had a vehicle serviced by the same main dealer who never changed the fuel filter. Result was that the filter disintegrated and fed its broken bits down to the fuel pump. It cost nearly £1000 to have the fuel pump rebuilt all because somebody saved themselves some time and trouble by not replacing the filter during the scheduled service.
All filters have to be maintained and I believe in erring on the side of caution and not taking it as given that the right thing has been done.
Once bitten, twice shy. Tanker filling up I move on, there is no shortage of petrol stations but there are plenty of people out there that will cut corners or take a chance on saving time and effort.

 

[777111]

All petrol stations sell fuel that meets given standard respective of whether they are one of the main feul cos or supermarket.
There is no need to avoid sites having a delivery all fuel will be filtered before it gets to the pump & your vehicle.

My long term belief also.
Just how do you conclusively prove a fuel fill is contaminated or substandard? Probably mixed with other fuel / crud in the tank before it potentially contaminates an engine.
I might suggest clever marketing sells higher priced fuels?
Plus I have seen high mpg's from supermarket fuel which possibly scotches that other myth too.

 

[jamesC]

Just to add - two weekends ago, I was in convoy with a friend in a T25 California, when he started to have issues.

We stopped to investigate, and found nothing obvious, however, the vehicle refused to restart, and so recovery was arranged.

It turned out to be bad fuel bought from a Murco Petrol Station in Ipswich, interestingly the vehicle had covered 140 miles without issue before breaking down.

The Murco garage bought the fuel from BP, and actually went through CCTV to find images of my friend filling up, and confirmed he had selected the correct grade of fuel. They then issued him, retrospectively, with the receipt for the original purchase (which he never asked for at time of purchase).

He has since contacted VOSA who have provided him with claim forms and other details to make his claim for repair etc. on BP.

Frankly, I think cross contamination of fuels is something that can occur regardless of brand, supermarket or otherwise, so I am not concerned with using supermarket fuel in my Cali.

I think my friend was just unlucky!

 

[KernowLad]

One thing to remember - our Calis are very nice but they are just vans. And vans should be able to accept some variance in fuel quality IMO - it's not like they are highly tuned racing cars or super bikes!

I do tend to avoid supermarkets but more through convenience (non supermarket fuel stations are nearer) but if I have to use them, I will, especially abroad. I do try and avoid them for the car - it just feels a bit wrong using cheapo fuel in it. But that's based on no particular facts. When abroad I use "super" petrol as it's hardly any more expensive. Over here we get royally stung for it.

So basically, I'm a hypocrite and talk mostly nonsense.

 

[Fryers!]

Its all a myth! They are come from the same refinery, the only difference is the premium fuels. This is discussed on many motoring forums and I have seen repies from the truck drivers inc our forum here viewtopic.php?f=8&t=6520&p=57618&hilit=hazchem#p57618

 

[Stu]

Its all a myth! They are come from the same refinery, the only difference is the premium fuels. This is discussed on many motoring forums and I have seen repies from the truck drivers inc our forum here viewtopic.php?f=8&t=6520&p=57618&hilit=hazchem#p57618

I'm sorry but even without reading that I can tell you it's not at all the case, with the greatest of respect to the truck drivers you mention they simply pick up the product and move it from A to B oblivious of the finer details of the product they're moving. I can walk in to Tesco and pick up several different brands of Baked Beans all under the same roof, would you argue that in every case each of those tins of Beans contains the same product, because they were obtained from the same location?? I don't think so.

For a start there is more than one refinery in the UK and within those refinery's they produce multiple products for different customers, secondly there are a number of additive manufacturers each of which has a number of products in it's portfolio and some of which are targeting budget area's of the market place.

Then with Diesel you need to understand what is the amount of FAME used in the blend (Morrison's were historically aggressive in their use of FAME and also Ethanol in petrol.)

My area of expertise is lubricants but essentially much of the same methodology can be applied, it's about the quality of the base oil and then what you put in it (Additive Package). The additivation is the clever bit and of course some components of additivation are more expensive than others so not all customers will specify them.

Have a kick around these websites

http://www.infineum.com/Pages/fuel.aspx

https://www.oronite.com/products/gas-additives.asp

This one is interesting as it's clear they offer an additive package to meet the customer needs

OGA® Compliance Additive Packages: formulated to meet minimum US EPA Final Rule LAC regulatory requirements.

OGA® Top Tier Additive Packages: formulated to meet or exceed Top Tier specifications set by BMW®, General Motors®, Honda®, and Toyota®.

OGA® Enhanced Additive Packages: formulated to provide higher levels of performance than compliance packages for customers to differentiate their products from compliance gasoline.

OGA® Customized Additive Packages: formulated to the gasoline marketer's specific requirements and unique marketing needs.

http://www.amalgamatedinc.com/about-us.aspx

http://www.cleangreencars.co.uk/jsp/cgc ... &pageid=-1

 

[briwy]

I was down a the Aragon MotoGP a short while ago and an English guy on a beautiful £20k BMW touring bike was next to us. We got chatting and it turned out he was the ex CEO of Shell UK and had some very interesting things to say about fuel and lubricants.
Basically, (whilst you may say he would say that) he confirmed in no uncertain terms what Stu has just said, there are( in some cases) considerable differences between brands and the cheaper ones simply do not match up to the big boys.
Whilst it may not be evident in terms of performance ( which is difficult to check for the layman without means of back to back testing under identical conditions) it definitely is in terms of the longevity and overall reliability of engines.
Apparently Shell have a test facility at the refinery at Stanlow where they test to destruction and have proved that the branded fuels definitely do have benefits both in terms of performance, mpg and reliability with all sorts of engines, diesel, petrol and from all of the major manufacturers.

 

[Stu]

Apparently Shell have a test facility at the refinery at Stanlow where they test to destruction and have proved that the branded fuels definitely do have benefits both in terms of performance, mpg and reliability with all sorts of engines, diesel, petrol and from all of the major manufacturers.

We have the same, not in Stanlow but at two research centres in France. I have visited one of them and there were rows and rows of dyno cells with engines from various manufacturers under test with different lubricants.

 

[TwentyOneThirtyFive]

Stu,

Going slightly off topic a second, just wondering what your thoughts are on fuel additives. My trusty 2.4D AAB code engine will run on just about anything including chip fat However, as diesel has been cleaned up over the years my understanding is that it doesn't contain the lubricants that it once did. Fine for a modern engine.

Been using an additive called Diesel Rhino, comes highly recommended on the T4 forum, but I am always sceptical of forum recommendations (I have very negative views of someone that came highly recommended on that forum, for instance). Engine is certainly quieter and smoke levels on this years MOT were much reduced. But is using these things a good thing?

dan

 

[Pete Wilkins]

Stu
Great reply very interesting read, and to be fair when you think about it it makes total sense, that the top company's do the research and they want to be the best.
What fuel are you using in yours, and do you use a additive.

 

[Stu]

I primarily use Shell when in the UK but in Europe it's more difficult so we tend to go with whatever we can get at a good price then revert back to Shell on return.

I don't use any additional additives outside of that.

The lubricant does also play some part in this which can also serve to confuse the matter. Most manufacturers recommend specific lubricants for EGR/DPF fitted cars.

 

[Stu]

Sorry Dan I wrote a reply to your question earlier in the train but it looks I've not posted it so I'll have another go later.

 

[Pete Wilkins]

Thank You Stu

 

[GrannyJen]

On my way back from Belgium, right on the French border near Armentieres ... 1.23 euro's

No idea whose fuel it was but a no-brainer as far as Albert and I were concerned

 

[Stu]

Stu,

Going slightly off topic a second, just wondering what your thoughts are on fuel additives. My trusty 2.4D AAB code engine will run on just about anything including chip fat However, as diesel has been cleaned up over the years my understanding is that it doesn't contain the lubricants that it once did. Fine for a modern engine.

Been using an additive called Diesel Rhino, comes highly recommended on the T4 forum, but I am always sceptical of forum recommendations (I have very negative views of someone that came highly recommended on that forum, for instance). Engine is certainly quieter and smoke levels on this years MOT were much reduced. But is using these things a good thing?

dan

Dan,

It's really as I have eluded to above, as a consumer it is very difficult to ascertain what is actually happening with the fuel you use apart from the Butt Dyno and of course the good experience you have had with using the product.

I had a look at the Diesel Rhino stuff and they don't really say to much about it's content, there is little to go on in that direction.

I'm dubious of the thought that modern fuels have reduced lubricity as I would think that with modern engines the tolerances were tighter, fuel pressures higher so lubricity is critical.

One of my friends has a modern Merc and on 'their' forum many of them advocate adding some 2T (2 Stroke) mix oil into each tank of fuel. Perhaps that's what Diesel Rhino is :laugh2

 

[TwentyOneThirtyFive]

Thanks Stu. 2 stroke oil is a commonly used additive in older diesels as far as I can tell. Rhino's different - actually it smells like glow fuel (used in R/C models) to me, but as you say, there's no real info on what it is and no numbers really backing up the claimed benefits, just that it's a cetane enhancer - so similar to using the expensive diesel?

Once my engine is rebuilt (second time this year grrr) I'll see about running it with and without. If we're back on the road in time for the firework do I'll bring some down, at the very least it's probably nice mixed with some coke and ice

 

[Stu]

If we're back on the road in time for the firework do I'll bring some down, at the very least it's probably nice mixed with some coke and ice

I used to work with a guy that could drink aviation fuel and orange juice, he's dead now but I'm not sure if it's related :laugh2

I know the anti icing inhibitor in it used to play havoc with your skin if you got it on your hands, I don't imagine his liver appreciated it. :smile

 

[TwentyOneThirtyFive]

I'll add that to my list of things to avoid I'll put it next to laser printer cleaning fluid

 

[Stu]

I'll put it next to laser printer cleaning fluid

Ahh yes, I have a story about that too

It involves a Brit Ex Pat compound in Kuwait that I visited.

Maybe we'll do that one over a G&T on fireworks night