PCP and depreciation

[Ch1pbutty]

Well yes but that's after you've paid out about £10,000 for a Tesla Powerwall plus several thousand more for the PVs. Also, that pricing scheme only covers up to £9,500 kWh per year, which is less than the average household uses for all energy uses.

As far as charging an EV is concerned, well okay but a keep in mind a Tesla car battery takes 100 kWh (okay you don't necessarily need to recharge it fully each day if you're only doing short distances) whereas a Powerwall stores only 13.5 kWh and your rooftop PVs will even then only be able to replenish that on a sunny summer day. So unless you're only pottering around locally your £15k Solar+Powerwall investment isn't even going to be able to cover your car usage (and if you are only pottering around locally, say 5,000 miles a year in a little ICE car, your petrol would only be costing around £1,000 a year anyway even at £2 a gallon).

(I'm not anti-solar, nor anti-EV, am planning to install panels at home later this year after heat pump has also gone in, however let's not kid ourselves that it makes economic sense at the moment.)

Agree but PV's make good sense regardless of whether or not you own an EV. The battery is an expense, but then it does then give you access to a cheaper tariff for your home. Before the increase last Friday our electricity was around 23p per kw, so even higher now (but will be switching once the panels get fitted). Although the Powerwall will store 13.5kw, under current network regulations it comes with a pre-set output of 3.6kw, balance goes to the national grid. The battery just means you sell surplus at 11p per kw and buy it back at same price when you need it.

To cover 5,000 miles charging at a Tesla charger is £275 approx (ie - think at the moment we get 200 'real' miles for about £11; that said we have needed to charge away from the house twice in 5000miles / 6 months). We just plug it in at home every now & again.

Energy prices will continue to rise, so happy to outlay now to have a quicker payback.

(But that said I still can't see me ever buying an electric Cali if it ever comes out, will stick with my old diesel one! + EV as 2nd car)

 

[GrannyJen]

Well yes but that's after you've paid out about £10,000 for a Tesla Powerwall plus several thousand more for the PVs. Also, that pricing scheme only covers up to £9,500 kWh per year, which is less than the average household uses for all energy uses.

As far as charging an EV is concerned, well okay but a keep in mind a Tesla car battery takes 100 kWh (okay you don't necessarily need to recharge it fully each day if you're only doing short distances) whereas a Powerwall stores only 13.5 kWh and your rooftop PVs will even then only be able to replenish that on a sunny summer day. So unless you're only pottering around locally your £15k Solar+Powerwall investment isn't even going to be able to cover your car usage (and if you are only pottering around locally, say 5,000 miles a year in a little ICE car, your petrol would only be costing around £1,000 a year anyway even at £2 a gallon).

(I'm not anti-solar, nor anti-EV, am planning to install panels at home later this year after heat pump has also gone in, however let's not kid ourselves that it makes economic sense at the moment.)

I have struggled with "it doesn't make sense".

I have a huge roof area facing South in probably the sunniest part of the country. It seems scandalous to waste the potential solar energy. For about the third time now I have someone coming round to give me a quote.

It will not make economic sense, it will give me very tempting security from power cuts, except of course in the winter when they are most likely to occur. It will make sense of swapping our diesel runabout with an EV.

Very hard decision

 

[Velma's Dad]

...it will give me very tempting security from power cuts, except of course in the winter when they are most likely to occur.

As I understand things (ie incompletely!), that's only the case if you build in an additional level of sophistication so that your PV/battery system can "island" itself during a power cut. But otherwise, the solar has to be configured to shut itself down automatically in any power cut (it's to protect network engineers from current flowing back up the wires while they're working on them).

 

[soulstyledevon]

As I understand things (ie incompletely!), that's only the case if you build in an additional level of sophistication so that your PV/battery system can "island" itself during a power cut. But otherwise, the solar has to be configured to shut itself down automatically in any power cut (it's to protect network engineers from current flowing back up the wires while they're working on them).

I’ve not read much into it yet.
Does the Powercell system not effectively become a UPS on power-outages…?

 

[GrannyJen]

As I understand things (ie incompletely!), that's only the case if you build in an additional level of sophistication so that your PV/battery system can "island" itself during a power cut. But otherwise, the solar has to be configured to shut itself down automatically in any power cut (it's to protect network engineers from current flowing back up the wires while they're working on them).

My last house had solar panels and they would isolate in the event of a power cut. I think it's standard security.

 

[westfalia]

Forget it.
Bmw ix xd50m on 3 phase takes almost 9hrs to fully charge,
on a domestic socket it would be 54 hours.

 

[pjm-84]

I've had PVs installed since 2011 and have revisited the battery option a few times, including recently within the last month. I still cant generate a reasonable ROI on the battery. Even bounced it off a specialist (who installed a 100kWh PV array on a project for me) and we both came to the that conclusion. He suggested to wait 18months as he felt a price correction was forthcoming.

Looked at an ASHP. It would be around £300 a year more to run.....

 

[soulstyledevon]

I've had PVs installed since 2011 and have revisited the battery option a few times, including recently within the last month. I still cant generate a reasonable ROI on the battery. Even bounced it off a specialist (who installed a 100kWh PV array on a project for me) and we both came to the that conclusion. He suggested to wait 18months as he felt a price correction was forthcoming.

Looked at an ASHP. It would be around £300 a year more to run.....

Would the ID Buzz be a contender…?
If I understand correctly from brief skim reading, it’s 71kWh sitting on the drive…?

 

[Velma's Dad]

I've had PVs installed since 2011 and have revisited the battery option a few times, including recently within the last month. I still cant generate a reasonable ROI on the battery. Even bounced it off a specialist (who installed a 100kWh PV array on a project for me) and we both came to the that conclusion. He suggested to wait 18months as he felt a price correction was forthcoming.

Looked at an ASHP. It would be around £300 a year more to run.....

That's the problem. To save carbon you have to end up substantially out of pocket. Okay for folks who have enough spare cash to afford altruism, but until govt radically changes the incentives/fuels pricing (extremely hard politically) it's hard to see big headway being made on decarbonising household energy in UK. If gas prices stay high, they could subsidise home electric tariffs for people with heat pumps and hence change the price ratio from current 4-to-1 to something more like 2-to-1... but that would perversely disincentive people from putting in PVs alongside HPs. Oh boy.

 

[The Tall Luthier]

That's the problem. To save carbon you have to end up substantially out of pocket. Okay for folks who have enough spare cash to afford altruism, but until govt radically changes the incentives/fuels pricing (extremely hard politically) it's hard to see big headway being made on decarbonising household energy in UK. If gas prices stay high, they could subsidise home electric tariffs for people with heat pumps and hence change the price ratio from current 4-to-1 to something more like 2-to-1... but that would perversely disincentive people from putting in PVs alongside HPs. Oh boy.

I’m not sure I believe that changes to consumer behaviour is led by carbon savings.

Two examples, an EV has to travel for 50,000 miles in order for the carbon saving to offset its carbon build cost over a diesel car.

PV solar panels: try finding data on carbon saving versus carbon coat of production, shipping and installation of the panels themselves. I have tried but failed several times.

New diesel cars with their associated carbon costs already spent are being deprecated in favour of new tech, this is an absolute waste of that carbon.

I don’t resent the change, but if The Charlatans plans to outlaw diesel early are true I promise it has nothing to do with environment and everything to do with economy.

Just my thoughts.

 

[BeagleMum]

Still


Someone has to pay. All factored into the lease price. We buy outright so need to consider and factor in depreciation. I allowed the Wife to buy an 6 series convertible back in 2008 and even though we managed nearly 10k off list the car was hit by depreciation that cost us 33,5k in 3.5years / 21k miles.

I looked at an I3 in early 2015 and walked away, buying an Outlander Hybrid instead, citing to BMW that depreciation would be too great. I looked again in 2019 and walked away again and bought another hybrid, a CHR this time.

I would have no concerns about buying a 6.1. (If I was looking for one). I wouldn't however pay list price for it

‘You allowed the wife’ what a shameful statement.

 

[WelshGas]

‘You allowed the wife’ what a shameful statement.

Not really. Depends who/how the purchase is being financed. From "Her money" "His money" or from a Joint account. The later two would require a joint decision with one partner giving permission or "allowing" the other to proceed with the purchase whilst the former one would presume would also involve an informed discussion and agreement.

 

[Velma's Dad]

I’m not sure I believe that changes to consumer behaviour is led by carbon savings.

Two examples, an EV has to travel for 50,000 miles in order for the carbon saving to offset its carbon build cost over a diesel car.

PV solar panels: try finding data on carbon saving versus carbon coat of production, shipping and installation of the panels themselves. I have tried but failed several times.

New diesel cars with their associated carbon costs already spent are being deprecated in favour of new tech, this is an absolute waste of that carbon.

I don’t resent the change, but if The Charlatans plans to outlaw diesel early are true I promise it has nothing to do with environment and everything to do with economy.

Just my thoughts.

I agree it can be very hard to find reliable embodied energy/carbon estimates for energy saving kit. Partly of course because it's fiendishly difficult to say what production aspects should be scopes in or out.

My view FWIW tends to be that in the shift to low/'no' emissions technologies there will be a few blind alleys, ie if some of the specific technologies turn out to be less than ideal, there's a learning curve effect. Not everything will be got right first time. (For every Ford Model T there will be an Edsel).

Lurches in govt policy don't help of course.

 

[Velma's Dad]

Not really. Depends who/how the purchase is being financed. From "Her money" "His money" or from a Joint account. The later two would require a joint decision with one partner giving permission or "allowing" the other to proceed with the purchase whilst the former one would presume would also involve an informed discussion and agreement.

Mrs VD is a relationship counsellor. I might offer her that as some case study material if that's okay?

 

[WelshGas]

You can "Disagree" all you like @BeagleMum but thats life.
We have 2 accounts, my Wife's, which I have no access to and a Joint account funded solely by me to which we both have access. I have no say in what she uses her account for but we both discuss what the Joint account is used for. If she wished to change her car using her account then that's her decision. If she wishes to use the Joint account then it is a joint decision so I will be allowing her to make the purchase .

 

[soulstyledevon]

Mrs VD is a relationship counsellor. I might offer her that as some case study material if that's okay?

I refer to mine as the War Office.

I always consult the War Office, it’s just not worth the aggro otherwise…!!!

 

[Amarillo]

Not really. Depends who/how the purchase is being financed. From "Her money" "His money" or from a Joint account. The later two would require a joint decision with one partner giving permission or "allowing" the other to proceed with the purchase whilst the former one would presume would also involve an informed discussion and agreement.

That’s not how it works in the Amarillo household.

What’s in Mrs Amarillo’s bank account belongs to Mrs Amarillo.

What’s in Mr and Mrs Amarillo’s bank account belongs to Mrs Amarillo.

What’s in Mr Amarillo bank account belongs to Mrs Amarillo.

 

[vwsween]

You can "Disagree" all you like @BeagleMum but thats life.
We have 2 accounts, my Wife's, which I have no access to and a Joint account funded solely by me to which we both have access. I have no say in what she uses her account for but we both discuss what the Joint account is used for. If she wished to change her car using her account then that's her decision. If she wishes to use the Joint account then it is a joint decision so I will be allowing her to make the purchase .

Some may feel that there is a big difference between supporting your wifes wish compared to allowing her to fulfill her wish. Since you can allow something then you also imply the power not to allow it. So your vote carries more weight than that of your wife? Of course things were different in the past but many relationships exist now where both parties are equal and the source of income is irrelevant as it is owned jointly.

 

[Ch1pbutty]

That’s not how it works in the Amarillo household.

What’s in Mrs Amarillo’s bank account belongs to Mrs Amarillo.

What’s in Mr and Mrs Amarillo’s bank account belongs to Mrs Amarillo.

What’s in Mr Amarillo bank account belongs to Mrs Amarillo.

Same here...Mrs Ch1pbutty wears the trousers.

 

[BeatrixKiddo]

You can "Disagree" all you like @BeagleMum but thats life.
We have 2 accounts, my Wife's, which I have no access to and a Joint account funded solely by me to which we both have access. I have no say in what she uses her account for but we both discuss what the Joint account is used for. If she wished to change her car using her account then that's her decision. If she wishes to use the Joint account then it is a joint decision so I will be allowing her to make the purchase .

The Patriarchy in action. "I will be allowing her" Big man.

 

[Amarillo]

Some may feel that there is a big difference between supporting your wifes wish compared to allowing her to fulfill her wish. Since you can allow something then you also imply the power not to allow it. So your vote carries more weight than that of your wife? Of course things were different in the past but many relationships exist now where both parties are equal and the source of income is irrelevant as it is owned jointly.

That sounds like some sort of utopia. I can only dream of being a equal part in decision making.

 

[pjm-84]

Have to agree.

Its normally the Wife allowing me and I have to seek permission first. She controls the money and I transfer her 90% of my wages into her account . No questions, swipe here you go and all my dividends. (so circa 50k a year). So I have to ask and seek permission.

The 6 series was not a sensible purchase, but my Wife wanted it. It wasn't good for our dogs, but my Wife wanted it, it wasn't good in town, but my Wife wanted it, it was only used to commute to work, but my Wife wanted it, and we lost £33500 in 3.5yrs. But my Wife wanted it.

I suggested a 1 series convertible, but my Wife wanted the 6. I could have said no, after pointing all the above out, as its a joint decision so it was allowed as it was the car she wanted.

On the opposite front .......

I have been allowed / given permission to buy a new racing HT (about £3.5k).
I was allowed to order a new Defender but not a Discovery as the Wife didn't want the Discovery
We ordered a BMW X545E as a alternative as this will become her car
I have been allowed to order an Citroen Ami

So who wears the trousers?

 

[WelshGas]

https://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/allow

 

[itsSteve]

This thread has been hijacked, which, while it has provided amusement for a few users it is remarkably unhelpful to most of us. Could admin sort it?

 

[Velma's Dad]

This thread has been hijacked, which, while it has provided amusement for a few users it is remarkably unhelpful to most of us. Could admin sort it?

Thread Hijacking is an honourable VWCOC tradition. And let's face it, it's more entertaining than PCP could ever be.