Reversed polarity on the 230V socket

[Keith Smith]

Apologies if this has been brought up before but having just picked up my new T6 Cali last week I'm now in the process of trying/testing everything. After hooking it up to the mains I've plugged a socket tester into the van socket and it shows polarity reversed. I've checked the cable and I've used the same tester on the socket from which I'm getting power so it looks like the van is wired up incorrectly. Has anyone else tested theirs?

 

[WelshGas]

Apologies if this has been brought up before but having just picked up my new T6 Cali last week I'm now in the process of trying/testing everything. After hooking it up to the mains I've plugged a socket tester into the van socket and it shows polarity reversed. I've checked the cable and I've used the same tester on the socket from which I'm getting power so it looks like the van is wired up incorrectly. Has anyone else tested theirs?

Yes. My T5 was OK, no problems.

 

[GrannyJen]

Yes. Mine was no problems either.

 

[Stoneybroke]

If it's wired wrong, it's back to the dealer, but before that I would use another hook up cable to rule out a crossover in the ehu cable.

 

[Keith Smith]

Thanks, I'll start a list of things to get sorted when I take it to the dealer next, although I can't imagine the mechanics are going to be too thrilled working on 230V ac! I supose I could always reverse the wires in the hook up cable as a temporary fix.

 

[phsdv]

Maybe a stupid question but the 230v is AC, thus alternating current and the polarity changes all the time from positive to negative. So how can you tell it had the wrong polarity?

But seriously, I know you have different sockets in the UK than on the test of Europe, do you have them in the van aswell? And should the live and neutral wires be in a specific configuration? Is that what you mean?

 

[Stoneybroke]

Maybe a stupid question but the 230v is AC, thus alternating current and the polarity changes all the time from positive to negative. So how can you tell it had the wrong polarity?

But seriously, I know you have different sockets in the UK than on the test of Europe, do you have them in the van aswell? And should the live and neutral wires be in a specific configuration? Is that what you mean?

UK switches normally only to break the circuit in the designated Live wire (single pole switches). Though alternating current, there is one wire which is the designated Live, and this is the wire RCD's break in the event of overload, etc.
The live and neutral wires work together to give the AC, but if the circuit is broken, the neutral is safe, but the live isn't. Get the polarity reversed, and the switch breaks the circuit, so the device doesn't work, but it is live, so dangerous because you may provide the means to complete the circuit - bang, flash, etc.
There are some plug in testers that are able to distinguish live, neutral and earth, and ensure all is wired correctly.
It's probably a lot more technical than that, but those are the basics.
If the Cali's 240v is reversed, then it is either a wiring fault within the van or the ehu cable is wired incorrectly.
There is at least one three pin UK 240 v socket in the Calis over here

 

[Keith Smith]

Maybe a stupid question but the 230v is AC, thus alternating current and the polarity changes all the time from positive to negative. So how can you tell it had the wrong polarity?

But seriously, I know you have different sockets in the UK than on the test of Europe, do you have them in the van aswell? And should the live and neutral wires be in a specific configuration? Is that what you mean?

I was an electrical engineer and have a tester which allows me to test sockets which is how I know it's connected up incorrectly.

With any 230V ac socket you normally have 3 connections; an earth which is a safety wire (not always used these days on some appliances if they are double insulated) and just to confuse things this wire is now called the cpc by electricians in the UK, second wire is the neutral which returns the current to source (as long as there are no faults this wire is at the same voltage as the earth and so would be potentially safe to touch, although I would absolutely recommend you never try!) the third wire is the live (now called the phase wire) this is the only deadly wire in a correctly wired and fault free system.

As Stoneybroke says in the UK many appliances only switch the live wire so when switched off the whole appliance is safe, however if the supply wires are reversed, switching off the device stops the current flow but leaves the whole device live. This normally would cause no problems, but there are situations when this could be dangerous, and so it should be avoided at all costs.

The California has a double pole RCBO which basically cuts off both live and neutral wires if it detects a fault, which is an excellent safety feature and should protect the user from harm but it is still best to have the wires the right way round in the first place. It's a pity I didn't know about this before the Tewksbury meet, I could have tested a few more vans, perhaps it would be an idea to bring it to the next meet.

 

[T6 CFO]

I was an electrical engineer and have a tester which allows me to test sockets which is how I know it's connected up incorrectly.

With any 230V ac socket you normally have 3 connections; an earth which is a safety wire (not always used these days on some appliances if they are double insulated) and just to confuse things this wire is now called the cpc by electricians in the UK, second wire is the neutral which returns the current to source (as long as there are no faults this wire is at the same voltage as the earth and so would be potentially safe to touch, although I would absolutely recommend you never try!) the third wire is the live (now called the phase wire) this is the only deadly wire in a correctly wired and fault free system.

As Stoneybroke says in the UK many appliances only switch the live wire so when switched off the whole appliance is safe, however if the supply wires are reversed, switching off the device stops the current flow but leaves the whole device live. This normally would cause no problems, but there are situations when this could be dangerous, and so it should be avoided at all costs.

The California has a double pole RCBO which basically cuts off both live and neutral wires if it detects a fault, which is an excellent safety feature and should protect the user from harm but it is still best to have the wires the right way round in the first place. It's a pity I didn't know about this before the Tewksbury meet, I could have tested a few more vans, perhaps it would be an idea to bring it to the next meet.

Thanks Keith. Great thread. My lack of knowledge in this area is worrying. Fortunately that probably makes me safe as I just don't touch electrics except for like for like changing and only then when everything is switched off at the mains. I can see how this could be dangerous to someone who is unaware of the change in polarity and is making a repair. Sounds like we definitely need to establish if the new vans are wired up correctly. Seems a bit of a coincidence to me that one of the few guys who would know has got a faulty one or is it that you are the only one to spot it?


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[WelshGas]

Informative, but I just cannot see how it can be wired up in reverse unless the wiring loom is faulty and those are rarely made by hand and I doubt if the wires are individually stripped and screwed into contacts. I could be wrong as I have had no occasion to examine the mains circuit closely as it is the correct polarity.
I have a EHU crossover cable that will trigger the Polarity tester I use, when fitted in line.

 

[AlisonF]

Is there an easy way for a non electrical engineer / electrician to test this for themselves, preferably at home on the driveway before using discovering the issue away on a trip?

Also, reading the thread, am I correct in thinking your electrical appliances might still work, but you have a dangerous live connection? (It's many years since I did my all but brief apprenticeship in my gap year, rather than back packing around the world like most others on their gap year, and I've had plenty of time to forget more than I learnt in the meantime... )

 

[snowy55]

You need a socket tester of ebay only a couple of quid.

 

[Keith Smith]

Socket testers are cheap as snowy says, they have three lights which light up to show if the wiring is correct or not.

Alison, even with the polarity reversed any appliance plugged in will work perfectly, and it does not exactly leave a dangerous live connection. The only problem is that with some appliances they could be turned off but not isolated from the live connection, something like an electric blanket would be a good example. However if you unplug the appliance as soon as you finish using it then you would remove any potential danger.

Welsh Gas, I assume a pair of wires have been connected the wrong way round on the RCBO or the socket itself. Perhaps with it being 230V they are not on connector blocks like the rest of the wiring? I doubt they would be able to run the mains cables in with the rest of the loom for fear of making it live. The same as in house wiring you are not allowed to mix telephone and mains cables in the same run.

 

[Raggedroy]

Edison screw lamp holders are a classic when polarity is reversed. The centre should be live under normal conditions. When polarity is reversed the thread becomes live and quite easy to touch. I would guess not many people use a bed side lamp in their Cali though.

 

[WelshGas]

Socket testers are cheap as snowy says, they have three lights which light up to show if the wiring is correct or not.

Alison, even with the polarity reversed any appliance plugged in will work perfectly, and it does not exactly leave a dangerous live connection. The only problem is that with some appliances they could be turned off but not isolated from the live connection, something like an electric blanket would be a good example. However if you unplug the appliance as soon as you finish using it then you would remove any potential danger.

Welsh Gas, I assume a pair of wires have been connected the wrong way round on the RCBO or the socket itself. Perhaps with it being 230V they are not on connector blocks like the rest of the wiring? I doubt they would be able to run the mains cables in with the rest of the loom for fear of making it live. The same as in house wiring you are not allowed to mix telephone and mains cables in the same run.

It would seem there is a dedicated 230v wiring loom from external socket to RCBO unit, Charger and Mains Socket.
http://www.partsbase.org/vw/campmob...000-001-7h-a-050-000-93790-electrical-system/

 

[GrannyJen]

Is there an easy way for a non electrical engineer / electrician to test this for themselves, preferably at home on the driveway before using discovering the issue away on a trip?

Also, reading the thread, am I correct in thinking your electrical appliances might still work, but you have a dangerous live connection? (It's many years since I did my all but brief apprenticeship in my gap year, rather than back packing around the world like most others on their gap year, and I've had plenty of time to forget more than I learnt in the meantime... )

As others have said, a cheap three pin device will show up polarity issues.

to put it into perspective, it does depend on what you intend to use that socket for. Most appliances will work. There is the problem that appliances "switched off" will still be live if you touch certain bits of them.

The most "active" device that I use that socket for is my mini-oven and I don't think there is much chance of it becoming live under normal usage.

 

[AlisonF]

So far mine has only been used for an electric blanket / hair drier whilst on hook up at the breeders for Crufts. But could be using it for kettle and other things at campsites in the future for agility comps so wanted to know what I needed to do to be sure it was safe...
I'm not sure that question was fully answered - or did I miss something (except I need to unplug as soon as I've finished using it) ?

 

[WelshGas]

So far mine has only been used for an electric blanket / hair drier whilst on hook up at the breeders for Crufts. But could be using it for kettle and other things at campsites in the future for agility comps so wanted to know what I needed to do to be sure it was safe...
I'm not sure that question was fully answered - or did I miss something (except I need to unplug as soon as I've finished using it) ?

Get one of these. Plug into Mains socket on California when you use the Hookup.
http://www.ebay.co.uk/sch/i.html?_f...arity+.TRS0&_nkw=polarity+tester&_sacat=92074
This will tell you if you have Reversed Polarity in your supply.
Assuming your California is correctly wired - check at home.
If you have Reversed Polarity on site, then the site supply is mis-wired. This is a more common problem abroad. In this case you can get a Reversed Polarity extension lead. This link has tester and lead.
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Hook-Up-P...779345?hash=item1c646a6811:g:JP0AAOSwPhdU5DYy

 

[sidepod]

Groundhog post.

If you were in Europe would you still be worried?

 

[Raggedroy]

Groundhog post.

If you were in Europe would you still be worried?

I think we are in Europe.

 

[Keith Smith]

So far mine has only been used for an electric blanket / hair drier whilst on hook up at the breeders for Crufts. But could be using it for kettle and other things at campsites in the future for agility comps so wanted to know what I needed to do to be sure it was safe...
I'm not sure that question was fully answered - or did I miss something (except I need to unplug as soon as I've finished using it) ?

My advice would just to be to be a bit more careful about the appliances you use in the Cali, for instance don't use an old toaster that has been in the back of a cupboard for 20 years! Modern appliances should be perfectly safe to use, in fact there is a good argument that they are much safer to use in the van as the Cali disconnects both live and neutral if it detects a fault. Always unplug when you have finished using it and if an appliance ever blows a fuse then I would never use it in the van again even if it works perfectly with a new fuse.

 

[T6 CFO]

Get one of these. Plug into Mains socket on California when you use the Hookup.
http://www.ebay.co.uk/sch/i.html?_f...arity+.TRS0&_nkw=polarity+tester&_sacat=92074
This will tell you if you have Reversed Polarity in your supply.
Assuming your California is correctly wired - check at home.
If you have Reversed Polarity on site, then the site supply is mis-wired. This is a more common problem abroad. In this case you can get a Reversed Polarity extension lead. This link has tester and lead.
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Hook-Up-P...779345?hash=item1c646a6811:g:JP0AAOSwPhdU5DYy

Thanks WG Was going to buy a short lead and convert but not necessary now as I got this one and the tester. Good quality. Sorted

 

[DM]

Just to confirm - I tested the polarity on my T6 today and all is well (using the plug tester available from th club shop). I also noted that there is a test switch on the RCD which also tested OK.

Like others who have posted I have a background in electrical engineering. It is important to have the polarity correct because the neutral wire is close to earth potential whilst the live fluctuates + to - 230V . Most appliances have single pole switches which only cut the live. This is fine as long as the neutral is at earth potential. The dual pole RCD in the Cali will cut both in the event of a fault but I'd still want it wired correctly.

 

[larrylamb]

I was chatting to an Electrical regs lecturer yesterday and he recommended jumping out of any caravan or motorhome etc. that was on hookup just in case the fault protection wasn't working and you were effectively in a Faraday cage until your foot stepped outside and touched the ground -zap! So look after your leads and check both your own rcd and the campsites.

 

[sidepod]

The answer to this recurring thread is simple.

The double pole RCD as fitted in the Cali covers the reverse polarity issue.

End of !