Safety of members is the duty of any forum

[Corradobrit]

There is a small chain of bakers shops in Paris called The French Bastards. The founder worked in Australia for a while and was referred to as ‘you French bastard’ by his workmates. He took it as a term of endearment, rather than an insult and on return to France used it as the name for his business. Fantastic attitude

I was thinking it was twist on the word Batard...
"a short loaf of French bread having an oval or oblong shape."

 

[GrumpyGranddad]

I was thinking it was twist on the word Batard...
"a short loaf of French bread having an oval or oblong shape."

 

[Corradobrit]

I would love to know the details of the original post. As I'm currently traveling through Burgundy region and camping off piste 95% of the time, its good to be aware of some of the tactics.
So far I had one dodgy night in a rather secluded village parking area outside Besancon. Got woken up by a couple of cars in the early hours as they drove over the gravel. My guess it was the local teenagers 'hang out' location. Last night I visited 3 Park4Night locations around Dijon until I found one I felt safe to overnight. Generally speaking it has been trouble free, but I avoid city parkups.

 

[Steve1]

Precisely! Some people just seem to be waiting for something to take offence over, when absolutely none was intended.

Hopefully they'll have taken something from this thread and not have a fit the next time someone accurately identifies scumbags who tried to damage their vehicle and potentially rob them.

Suffice to say those who travel to French Aires, myself included, are now aware of the tactics and grateful to the OP for highlighting the issue he experienced. Let's hope the French Police soon round up said scumbags, though I won't hold my breath...

The original post may have been unintentionally insensitive, but your now deleted but referenced post was appalling and clearly purposely meant to cause offense and an argument.

 

[Wannabecamperman]

The original post may have been unintentionally insensitive, but your now deleted but referenced post was appalling and clearly purposely meant to cause offense and an argument.

Thanks for sharing your opinion, Steve.

 

[Kenb17]

Back to the main topic, there have been warnings in the past about stopping within 100km of the ports, we like the earlier post don’t stop at aires, refuel and in our case visit hypermarkets (bad experience at Lillle in the car park once) within 100km. Other aires however have been wonderful - especially small town ones and our best a vineyard in Alsace.

 

[derek_j_buchanan]

We have found out that you can no longer say “good dog” or “good girl” and have to use “good job” in case the dogs don’t identify as he/she.

 

[BikerGran]

It’s not really a case of language. People can’t be allowed to assume/accuse other of racism/bigotry simply because they don’t share the same opinion.

Unfortunately the law is part of the problem. Unless it's changed from the days when I worked as a civilian for the police, the law says something like 'anything racist ot that could be perceived as racist' (likewise for sexist etc etc)
I always feel this is ridiculous because a man could tell a woman she looks gorgeous and she could report him for being racist (if she's anything other than white, apparently white people don't have this protection) or sexist. When all he's doing is paying her a compliment.

 

[Neuromancer11]

Back to the main topic, there have been warnings in the past about stopping within 100km of the ports, we like the earlier post don’t stop at aires, refuel and in our case visit hypermarkets (bad experience at Lillle in the car park once) within 100km. Other aires however have been wonderful - especially small town ones and our best a vineyard in Alsace.

Just for just us complete French travel newbies, what bad experiences are happening in supermarket car parks? im starting to rethink my plans to travel to France next year!

 

[WelshGas]

Just for just us complete French travel newbies, what bad experiences are happening in supermarket car parks? im starting to rethink my plans to travel to France next year!

Basically Aires, lay byes and supermarket car parks within 100kms of departure points for the UK are often frequented by groups of individuals who believe they have the right to travel to the UK, bypassing the normal visa and passport controls , and who wish to relieve you of your property without payment.

 

[andyinluton]

Just for just us complete French travel newbies, what bad experiences are happening in supermarket car parks? im starting to rethink my plans to travel to France next year!

Daytime is usually distraction robberies by a small group - someone shows you a leak / puncture round one side of the van while his or her mates are round the other side opening the passenger door ready to grab whatever's in reach.

At night it was disturbances / attempted break ins at off site park ups.

Nothing different to any of the previous 20 years or so that we been driving through France.

Just use common sense as to where you stop, if you are not comfortable move on.

The problems are worse the closer to ports you get.

 

[Ian789]

I rarely get involved in these types of discussions as it's largely pointless; we each have our views and I doubt any exchange on the internet will change these. But I thought I'd go against my own rules here and chip in!

I thought Tall Luther's point before was interesting. Language does change and evolve over time. We'll have our views on whether it changes for the better, but usually language changes to make others, who may have felt excluded and marginalised in the past, feel more included in conversations and with society. Sometimes this goes too far one way, but (large generalisation coming up based on not fact or evidence) society probably gets it right most of the time.

Which leads us to the use of colour (and gender etc) in descriptors. The issue here is that groups of people have been (and continue to be) disadvantaged in society and can feel legitimate hurt and upset at the use of such descriptors. Personally, I think it's right to highlight this hurt and explain why it is so. This allows us all to reconsider our language. They way I talk now is very different to to way I talked in the 70s and 80s, and this is largely down to me becoming more aware of the upset terms and phrases can cause, even to one person. It can be a difficult process to go through and you do consciously have to think before you speak, but is that such a bad thing to be more aware?

Therefore, we can all have our views and opinions on whether a phrase or descriptor should or should not be used. We can all have our view on whether people take too much offence or not. But - final thought - even if one person does take offence, then personally I think it's for us to sit back and reconsider the use of certain words and descriptors and the impact they can have.

This is not a comment on the original post. I didn't see it. It's a general comment on the evolution of language (and society) over the years.

So iif someone of a certain race,gender or religion commit a crime because one person may take offence at a particular descriptor we shouldnt accurately describe the assailant.

And I didnt think the descriptor black was an issue any longer. Its used in the slogan Black Lives Matter without offending for example ?

Racial slurs of any kind would be a diffetent matter obviously.

 

[andyinluton]

So iif someone of a certain race,gender or religion commit a crime because one person may take offence at a particular descriptor we shouldnt accurately describe the assailant.

My objection was to post 35 where someone has said they were lucky not to get robbed, but didn't even suffer an attempted robbery, but then gives a full profile of the people that they assume would have robbed them.

"Last time we went to France, we were lucky not to be robbed. At the time, these brazen attacks were common and they were typically being perpetrated by groups of black migrants. Whether such a statement is racist or factual I don't know. I expect these sort of distraction robberies are still prevalent."


I'm all for giving an accurate description of something that has happened, but to racially profile the supposed attacker when an incident hasn't even happened is just plain wrong.

 

[wildslammer22]

So iif someone of a certain race,gender or religion commit a crime because one person may take offence at a particular descriptor we shouldnt accurately describe the assailant.

And I didnt think the descriptor black was an issue any longer. Its used in the slogan Black Lives Matter without offending for example ?

Racial slurs of any kind would be a diffetent matter obviously.

Has anyone said ‘black’ is an offensive descriptor? The more general point is it necessary in the context of the original post? Unless you are reporting a crime to the police in which case an accurate description of the perpetrators is of course necessary.

The point is there is sensitivity among communities that have historically suffered unfair treatment or prejudice. Why wouldn’t you treat that with some empathy? There is a huge swathe of evidence that British and French police have behaved appallingly toward black ‘suspects’ often with no justification. Thankfully our police at least don’t shoot people in this country.

Would the perpetrators have been described as ‘white scumbags’ had they not been black? I’d suggest very unlikely, whilst using black may be accurate it can be viewed by black people as just another subconscious reinforcement of prejudice and consequently make people more wary of black people. So it does matter imo, in the same way that Welshgas has seemingly suggested that casual criminals around French ports are mostly wannabe ‘illegal immigrants’. It just reinforces racial stereotypes.

I remember an old Lenny Henry joke about when he first visited New York. He tells of how he was walking behind a white couple who kept looking back nervously. As a stranger in NY this made him jittery, and he kept checking over his shoulder wondering what was worrying them. As they walked faster so did he. Eventually they started running and in a panic so did he. It wasn’t until he had run two blocks that he realised they were running from him. It’s a funny story but also makes a serious point about stereotyping.


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[wildslammer22]

My objection was to post 35 where someone has said they were lucky not to get robbed, but didn't even suffer an attempted robbery, but then gives a full profile of the people that they assume would have robbed them.

"Last time we went to France, we were lucky not to be robbed. At the time, these brazen attacks were common and they were typically being perpetrated by groups of black migrants. Whether such a statement is racist or factual I don't know. I expect these sort of distraction robberies are still prevalent."


I'm all for giving an accurate description of something that has happened, but to racially profile the supposed attacker when an incident hasn't even happened is just plain wrong.

100% this


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[The Tall Luthier]

Has anyone said ‘black’ is an offensive descriptor? The more general point is it necessary in the context of the original post? Unless you are reporting a crime to the police in which case an accurate description of the perpetrators is of course necessary.

The point is there is sensitivity among communities that have historically suffered unfair treatment or prejudice. Why wouldn’t you treat that with sensitivity? There is a huge swathe of evidence that British and French police have behaved appallingly toward black ‘suspects’ often with no justification. Thankfully our police at least don’t shoot people in this country.

Would the perpetrators have been described as ‘white scumbags’ had they not been black? I’d suggest very unlikely, whilst using black may be accurate it can be viewed by black people as just another subconscious reinforcement of prejudice and consequently make people more wary of black people. So it does matter imo, in the same way that Welshgas has seemingly suggested that casual criminals around French ports are mostly wannabe ‘illegal immigrants’. It just reinforces racial stereotypes.

I remember an old Lenny Henry joke about when he first visited New York. He tells of how he was walking behind a white couple who kept looking back nervously. As a stranger in NY this made him jittery, and he kept checking over his shoulder wondering what was worrying them. As they walked faster so did he. Eventually they started running and in a panic so did he. It wasn’t until he had run two blocks that he realised they were running from him. It’s a funny story but also makes a serious point about stereotyping.


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Mom: where do you think you’re going dressed like that?
Lenny Henry: (smiles proudly) The Discotheque!
Mom: Discotheque?! Discotheque?! Discotheque off those stupid clothes, you ain’t going nowhere.

Henry will always be one of my favourite watches on the tv. More dramas, less premier inn going forward.


I think this idea of using Black as a descriptor is what I was trying to get at in #16 that language changes
We can label black people as black, brown people as brown, a group of mixed race people as people of colour, but we can’t refer to people as coloured.

You can say that the man was black, 5’8” weighing 12 stone wet through and was wearing a blue knit sweater and a pleated skirt. But you can’t say the ice cream vendor was black, unless there’s a really bloody good reason that their physicality was important.

You can say that person is a foreigner, you can’t say that that person looks foreign.

There are words white people have culturally removed from their shared lexicon. They lost the rights to use them because they were beyond nasty with them. Other people use of these words is fine, it serves well as a reminder that we were nasty and we lost the right.

I can’t tell you how I know these things.

I really can’t say why other people don’t understand that language does change and the onus is on them to keep up. Instead they seem to insist that because they are not bigoted their choices of words can’t be either.

 

[GrumpyGranddad]

Has anyone said ‘black’ is an offensive descriptor? The more general point is it necessary in the context of the original post? Unless you are reporting a crime to the police in which case an accurate description of the perpetrators is of course necessary.

The point is there is sensitivity among communities that have historically suffered unfair treatment or prejudice. Why wouldn’t you treat that with sensitivity? There is a huge swathe of evidence that British and French police have behaved appallingly toward black ‘suspects’ often with no justification. Thankfully our police at least don’t shoot people in this country.

Would the perpetrators have been described as ‘white scumbags’ had they not been black? I’d suggest very unlikely, whilst using black may be accurate it can be viewed by black people as just another subconscious reinforcement of prejudice and consequently make people more wary of black people. So it does matter imo, in the same way that Welshgas has seemingly suggested that casual criminals around French ports are mostly wannabe ‘illegal immigrants’. It just reinforces racial stereotypes.

I remember an old Lenny Henry joke about when he first visited New York. He tells of how he was walking behind a white couple who kept looking back nervously. As a stranger in NY this made him jittery, and he kept checking over his shoulder wondering what was worrying them. As they walked faster so did he. Eventually they started running and in a panic so did he. It wasn’t until he had run two blocks that he realised they were running from him. It’s a funny story but also makes a serious point about stereotyping.


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Would the perpetrators have been described as ‘white scumbags’ had they not been black?

Yes, I think they would @wildslammer22

That description might well be applied to the group currently pitched up on Richmond Green. Disruptive, noisy behaviour and allegedly a huge increase in shoplifting locally. Not to mention they are illegally parked on the cricket pitch. They are a well known ‘white minority group’ labelled as travellers these days (you can’t say gypsies anymore). Bet they’re not paying the ULEZ charges either.

The police are powerless and the local authority has to go through the courts to seek an injunction. Madness!

 

[sidepod]

Christ on a bike!!!!

 

[wildslammer22]

Would the perpetrators have been described as ‘white scumbags’ had they not been black?

Yes, I think they would @wildslammer22

That description might well be applied to the group currently pitched up on Richmond Green. Disruptive, noisy behaviour and allegedly a huge increase in shoplifting locally. Not to mention they are illegally parked on the cricket pitch. They are a well known ‘white minority group’ labelled as travellers these days (you can’t say gypsies anymore). Bet they’re not paying the ULEZ charges either.

The police are powerless and the local authority has to go through the courts to seek an injunction. Madness!

Respectfully I disagree. If you can point me in the direction of where that description has been used about the disruptive group on Richmond Green or similar elsewhere it might carry more weight. I’ve just done a Google search and lots of mentions of Travellers, none have added ‘white’.

From the Daily Mail, a publication not known for cultural sensitivity!

“The security guard, Rizwan, told Mail Online that a group of male shoplifters had returned to the store this afternoon.”

Now we might assume that Rizwan might be a person of colour, yet he didn’t feel the need to describe the shoplifters as anything other than ‘male’.

Clearly people have strong views and I’ve had my say so will end just by saying that social mores and language move on, some don’t want to move and that’s fair enough, what isn’t fair imo is to project onto other people what they are and aren’t allowed to be offended by. Don’t judge a man until you have walked in his shoes and all that…


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[Dyddi]

Thank you, edocali, for the photograph. Good to see old Leonid is still going strong. Amongst all the angst it made me laugh out loud.
We could do with a drop more Cold War now and then.

 

[flying banana]

Has anyone said ‘black’ is an offensive descriptor? The more general point is it necessary in the context of the original post? Unless you are reporting a crime to the police in which case an accurate description of the perpetrators is of course necessary.

The point is there is sensitivity among communities that have historically suffered unfair treatment or prejudice. Why wouldn’t you treat that with some empathy? There is a huge swathe of evidence that British and French police have behaved appallingly toward black ‘suspects’ often with no justification. Thankfully our police at least don’t shoot people in this country.

Would the perpetrators have been described as ‘white scumbags’ had they not been black? I’d suggest very unlikely, whilst using black may be accurate it can be viewed by black people as just another subconscious reinforcement of prejudice and consequently make people more wary of black people. So it does matter imo, in the same way that Welshgas has seemingly suggested that casual criminals around French ports are mostly wannabe ‘illegal immigrants’. It just reinforces racial stereotypes.

I remember an old Lenny Henry joke about when he first visited New York. He tells of how he was walking behind a white couple who kept looking back nervously. As a stranger in NY this made him jittery, and he kept checking over his shoulder wondering what was worrying them. As they walked faster so did he. Eventually they started running and in a panic so did he. It wasn’t until he had run two blocks that he realised they were running from him. It’s a funny story but also makes a serious point about stereotyping.


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Lenny Henry has never told a funny story or joke.

 

[flying banana]

I would love to know the details of the original post. As I'm currently traveling through Burgundy region and camping off piste 95% of the time, its good to be aware of some of the tactics.
So far I had one dodgy night in a rather secluded village parking area outside Besancon. Got woken up by a couple of cars in the early hours as they drove over the gravel. My guess it was the local teenagers 'hang out' location. Last night I visited 3 Park4Night locations around Dijon until I found one I felt safe to overnight. Generally speaking it has been trouble free, but I avoid city parkups.

I'll tell you. He just said 3 black men made his wife feel uncomfortable hanging around the van etc.thats it and then all this left wing right on stuff started like usual. Sounded also like ozzy Pete can handle himself to me so I wish the post had Continued that he gave them a good hiding. But that didn't happen. It was good information in my opinion.

 

[Corradobrit]

Respectfully I disagree. If you can point me in the direction of where that description has been used about the disruptive group on Richmond Green or similar elsewhere it might carry more weight. I’ve just done a Google search and lots of mentions of Travellers, none have added ‘white’.

From the Daily Mail, a publication not known for cultural sensitivity!

“The security guard, Rizwan, told Mail Online that a group of male shoplifters had returned to the store this afternoon.”

Now we might assume that Rizwan might be a person of colour, yet he didn’t feel the need to describe the shoplifters as anything other than ‘male’.

Clearly people have strong views and I’ve had my say so will end just by saying that social mores and language move on, some don’t want to move and that’s fair enough, what isn’t fair imo is to project onto other people what they are and aren’t allowed to be offended by. Don’t judge a man until you have walked in his shoes and all that…


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Strictly speaking true gypsies or Romany’s are not white. Ethnically their origins are India.

 

[Loz2286]

Interesting thread.

Free speech is not a license to insult. One should always try to be mindful of the feelings of others. For my part I consider myself to be WOKE, at least I try to be, and for me it is a badge of honour, not a pejorative.

 

[Ozzy Pete]

While we are away we like to take a mix of DVDs with us instead of watching French/Spanish TV.
I so happen to have a box set of Faulty Towers. Plus some of Little Britain.
oh my word that would set the cat amongst the pidgins.
From what made us laugh till we cried in the 70s through till the 90s and beyond is now deemed “Not fit to watch” because of some of the remarks made by the stars of the time.
Im sorry but I still find them very funny with only a very few of the remarks which wouldn’t be aired today.
Should I burn my CDs? Or continue to find them funny.
Same with two of my favourite bands of all time. The Rolling Stones and the Beatles. Rolling Stones with Brown Sugar and The Beatles words She was just 17.
Times change along with attitudes but I still love Faulty towers, little Britain, The Stones and the Beatles.