T6 Body insulation (or lack of it ? )

[Cali4nia-Dream]

In "This week I've bought '________' for my Cali" @Yorkie wrote

I was shocked to discover they didn't insulate the walls. Someone tapped my external walls and pointed this out. He had just finished filling his with a wool or somethings similar

Can anyone confirm if this is correct that there is no insulation in the walls.

 

[Annik]

Sadly the Cali does not have any insulation between the body and internal plastic. Not sure why as motorhomes and conversions do.

 

[WelshGas]

In "This week I've bought '________' for my Cali" @Yorkie wrote


Can anyone confirm if this is correct that there is no insulation in the walls.

That's correct - that is why the Ocean has a built in Diesel Heater as standard and Plastic internal Trim.

The trim will hold an air barrier to prevent rapid heat loss, but also allows slow ventilation of the space between trim and vehicle wall so NO build up of condensation behind the trim etc: Conversions use Insulation as often converted to a price that precludes the relatively expensive Diesel Heater, that can get moisture trapped against the vehicle walls and retained.

 

[WelshGas]

Sadly the Cali does not have any insulation between the body and internal plastic. Not sure why as motorhomes and conversions do.

As far as I am concerned - Not Sadly - but thank heavens. If the California is used outside summer for it's intended purpose with people sleeping inside it WILL accumulate condensation unless adequately ventilated and the last thing I want is carpet and moisture absorbent insulation trapping water all over the vehicle.
Instead you ventilate properly and use the heater for the purpose it was designed for.

 

[Hotel California]

If it was insulated would mean it needed a insulation and a inner shell on top of that , otherwise moist will build up in the insulation.
All of this would means Xtra weight and loss off space...two things we bo not want in a campervan.
Ventilate and heat-up at the same time and there is nothing to worry about , the aux-heater will make the inside of a Cali toasty within' 15min.

 

[Yorkie]

That's what this forum is for: good answers to misplaced concerns.

 

[briwy]

Not sure I agree with this.
Its allright saying it needs adequate ventilation, which I agree with, but that's easier said than done if you are out in really bad weather. Rain/snow coming straight down not too bad but even then the sloping sides of the van mean that water is going to drip in through open windows. If it's coming at even a slight angle then it will blow in. The wind deflectors on the front doors help but don't stop it completely and aren't any use if you have a thremal screen on.
If there is a temperature difference between inside and outside then condensation will form on any colder surface. There have been a number if threads about condensation on the inside of the windscreen and despite our best efforts with inside/outside thermal screens it's just not possible to stop it in really cold weather.
My concern is that condensation is forming on the inside of the body panels and dripping down into various cavities where although the body is supposedly rustproofed it can't over time be doing any good. personally I would prefer to see some form of insulation on the inside of the body panels to help prevent this happening.
Having the heater on will increase the temperature differntial, probably making the matter worse.

 

[Hotel California]

Brian , you are not at all wrong on your concern but there are plenty of ways to ventilate without rain coming in .
If used for staying in wintersperiod skiing often and long times in snowy places insulation would be better but the Cali is mostly used in summerconditions.
Even big white campers have problems when going skiing with condens and moist.
The mention of condens searching its way down and cause rust inside the verhicle is very extreme imo.
You simply can not insulate every metal part of the Cali and so the problem stays no matter what.
In the mean time we are back above zero celcius today here in Belgium....

 

[briwy]

Summer time yes I agree Wim and no doubt most will be used in summer mainly.
However, I still stand by what I have said re use in colder times, especially when it's damp. Usually letting air in from the outside will be just as, if not more than, humid than the air already inside which won't help the situation.
I know the rear door can be left ajar with the safety thingy but there is no way I would consider using that in winter. I'd love to know how to ventilate in pouring/sideways rain without it getting in though.

 

[Hotel California]

Summer time yes I agree Wim and no doubt most will be used in summer mainly.
However, I still stand by what I have said re use in colder times, especially when it's damp. Usually letting air in from the outside will be just as, if not more than, humid than the air already inside which won't help the situation.
I know the rear door can be left ajar with the safety thingy but there is no way I would consider using that in winter. I'd love to know how to ventilate in pouring/sideways rain without it getting in though.

Using the side window inserts for the front windows , on the opposite side from the rain
Agree on ventilating when it rains bringing in humidity !
It's all about malking compromises i guess .

 

[WelshGas]

Summer time yes I agree Wim and no doubt most will be used in summer mainly.
However, I still stand by what I have said re use in colder times, especially when it's damp. Usually letting air in from the outside will be just as, if not more than, humid than the air already inside which won't help the situation.
I know the rear door can be left ajar with the safety thingy but there is no way I would consider using that in winter. I'd love to know how to ventilate in pouring/sideways rain without it getting in though.

I note your comments but if you think about it carefully, yes condensation can form on the interior of external body panels, but because there is no insulation to trap it in place then it can just as easily evaporate when the conditions change. Whereas if there is insulation present, unless you have a 100% effective vapour barrier moisture will still condense out and maybe trapped for a much longer period. No different to storing a wet vehicle in a non-heated garage which maintains the vehicle in damp conditions. It is better to store outside under a car port or in a heated, well ventilated garage.
Better to ventilate body cavities than have a system that allows moisture in but retards it getting out.

 

[B J G]

Has anyone used the Reimo front door ventilators?

Found 2 listings on Ebay, one says not suitable for electric windows the other doesn't mention suitability for manual or electric.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/REIMO-Win...379161?hash=item4d493f7c59:g:e~oAAOSwIgNXsZpE

 

[WelshGas]

Has anyone used the Reimo front door ventilators?

Found 2 listings on Ebay, one says not suitable for electric windows the other doesn't mention suitability for manual or electric.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/REIMO-Win...379161?hash=item4d493f7c59:g:e~oAAOSwIgNXsZpE

Or even these from the Forum shop.

https://vwcaliforniaclub.com/shop/product/vw-t5t6-ventilation-cabin-windows-pair

Use these all the time. Never let in any rain yet.

 

[Hotel California]

Has anyone used the Reimo front door ventilators?

Found 2 listings on Ebay, one says not suitable for electric windows the other doesn't mention suitability for manual or electric.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/REIMO-Win...379161?hash=item4d493f7c59:g:e~oAAOSwIgNXsZpE

Those are the one i use , think they are also in the Brandrup cataloge
Love them , but they can be stricky to put in as the electric window goes back down when feeling resitance ....security reason
Once you done it few times it's easy putting them in .
I would reccomend them 100%

 

[Bigted]

I've had condensation run down the inside skin of the tailgate door as it has drained out of the holes in the bottom and frozen on the bumper. The windows are alway steamy in winter and sometimes condensation forms on the front of the pop up roof. We sleep 5 up mind and use a topper plus open the front windows a crack (wind deflectors stop the rain entering).

 

[motacyclist]

The outer skin can be seen if you look at the back of the cupboards under the cooker, so if there is any condensation forming you should be able to see it.

 

[Hotel California]

I've had condensation run down the inside skin of the tailgate door as it has drained out of the holes in the bottom and frozen on the bumper. The windows are alway steamy in winter and sometimes condensation forms on the front of the pop up roof. We sleep 5 up mind and use a topper plus open the front windows a crack (wind deflectors stop the rain entering).

Are you sure a leaking thirth breaklight wasn't cause to this.....?

 

[Kmann]

We have mounted the Wind deflectors for the purpose to open the front windows a little, to secure proper ventilation, on the rare occasions when we sleep downstairs. 1 cm open, makes a huge difference and no rain og snow will enter. But actually we only sleep downstairs on really rare occasions.

Even in horisontal rain we sleep upstairs. The topper makes the difference.

I actually slept in the driveway this night. It was -5º and quite windy (20-25 kt). But I wanted to test or new matress from Calicap that just arrived yesterday. Slept upstairs, heater on 5. After an hour I needed to lower to 3, and it still was very warm and comfy. Slept like a baby ;-)

 

[B J G]

One possible solution or at least part of a solution may be to have a small 12volt fan in the van floor intaking air to assist venting moisture laden air out of the roof or windows..
Insulation wouldn't cure the problem as the moisture would still remain and could be detrimental as the moisture could be trapped with no ventilation causing metal corrosion, most probably why none is fitted by VW.

Some info from house related condensation article I read that can help with understanding the naturally caused problem.

the surface area of your lungs is in excess of 75 square metres and warm air is passing over this wet surface as we breathe 15-20 times per minute; this is being breathed back into the environment! Indeed, it is reported that a large dog can give off even more water vapour than the average adult! The table below illustrates the amount of water that could be generated in an average house during a 24 hour period.



Water vapour source in an ‘average' house per day Approximate water generated (in litres)
4/5 people asleep - 1.5
2 people active- 1.6
Cooking- 2.6
Washing up- 1.0
Washing clothes- 4.0
Drying clothes- 4.5
Bathing/washing- 0.5
Approximate total 15.7 litres

 

[motacyclist]

I don't think condensation is a major issue in the Cali, I don't recall anyone bringing it up in the "10 things I hate" thread. Maybe you have to wipe the cab windows in the morning but every van we've had from Splittie to Kon-Tiki has had that problem.

I remember our old VW Devon bay window, it had a side hinged roof with two bunks up top with a space in the middle. The condensation used to drip off the roof during the night on to everyone below. No padding or insulation up there in those days!

 

[Ocean Spirit]

Just my 2 pence worth on this.
I never really gave insulation a thought as it's never a hot topic it was out of sight out of mind until I stumbled on it.
So I had initial disappointment because no insulation felt like I'd been short changed. However reading the rest of the posts and relating it to my line of work I quickly came round.
Corrosion under Insulation is the biggest threat to industrial process piping and storage vessels by far. So lets say...from a few degrees C below zero, to way above any temperature the human body can live in, corrosion thrives and accelerates when trapped under the insulation. Uninsulated pipework outside of the insulation under the same internal and exterior atmospheric conditions fairs much, much better.
Applying this to the California panels, then it would appear to be a very smart move.

 

[hirsty]

Having owned both a conversion & a factory van I’d now opt for the inevitable overnight condensation more readily evaporating the next day rather than damp insulation going mouldy & rusting steel panels from the inside outward.

Turn up the heater & crack the window an inch.

 

[rod_vw]

I use this http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/3M-Thinsu...tomotive-Insulation-for-car-van-/131754566187 from a UK supplier for roof and all side walls except front doors in my conversions.

Heating is by a 2.2kW Eberspacher night heater with digital thermostat (801 modulator), this will also provide cold air circulation when required in hot weather. Fitted out like this it easily maintains 17 degrees C overnight at outside ambient in low single figures. See the spec of Thinsulate for its thermal and acoustic properties.

Additionally the front and rear lid windows have REIMO internal screens and when necessary the other side windows have home made silver bubble type screens in all cases the window screens are held in place by suckers.

 

[briwy]

Wool is reckoned to be the best and is available for insulation in sheets.
Works well on sheep

 

[hirsty]

Wool is reckoned to be the best and is available for insulation in sheets.
Works well on sheep

I've read folks are turning away from wool & similar due to mould / spores etc.

Unlike the darkest recesses of a van, sheep have the 'benefit' of being outside getting a good airing so as to not go mouldy.