update on stuck wheels

[morpeth clan]

Hi all,
after my recent disappointment with my local garage refusing to try and get the alloys off, this was when the locking bolts would not move,
even Kwik Fit and ATS said they won't come off and said they would not try,
I had it booked in today with Newcastle vw van centre,
£100 odd pounds for bolts and wheels to come off,
and then fixed price for rear corroded pads and disks,
strange how the back ones were so corroded and worn when the front ones still have half left,
dropped it off 8.30 today sat there with lap top catching up with work, drank some coffee and they did it no bother,
even did the roof check, all ok no corrosion.
washed as well,
yes they might cost a bit more, but they do the job and very nice they are at the same time,
my cam belt will be done there this year,
I might even let them service it.
so we are all set now for the hols and weekends ahead knowing I can get a wheel off if required.

 

[Walrus]

I had similar issues with one wheel. I finally removed it with an impact driver. Now. on the advice of my local tyre fitter who said the VW ones are one of their big headaches, I've removed all four and replaced them with standard bolts. I don't want that problem on a remote moor in the rain, wind and dark!

 

[flying banana]

I removed all mine today . The back ones were stuck to the hub. All cleaned up and coppers lip applied to the contact faces. The locking bolts thankfully all came out OK.

 

[Sandyvan]

I don't torque the puzzle nuts up just tight. Never had an issue getting them off, agree with Flying Banana copper slip on the mating faces. I put a dab on the studs as well.

 

[Bjohnson]

Any tips for getting the wheels off?!

Had our Cali from new for 7 years now, never had cause to remove the wheels myself, but decided as part of my spring clean and check over that I would check how to get the spare out in case I ever had a flat. Also wanted to remove the wheels for a spring clean and coat of polish.

Had no problem tonight loosening the wheel nuts, but can't get the wheel off its stuck fast. Didn't want to go at it too hard with a lump hammer on the tyre as i had it up on a trolley jack and axle stand.

Any tips?

I also read somewhere the advice was not to put coppaslip on the mating surfaces

 

[flying banana]

Any tips for getting the wheels off?!

Had our Cali from new for 7 years now, never had cause to remove the wheels myself, but decided as part of my spring clean and check over that I would check how to get the spare out in case I ever had a flat. Also wanted to remove the wheels for a spring clean and coat of polish.

Had no problem tonight loosening the wheel nuts, but can't get the wheel off its stuck fast. Didn't want to go at it too hard with a lump hammer on the tyre as i had it up on a trolley jack and axle stand.

Any tips?

I also read somewhere the advice was not to put coppaslip on the mating surfaces

i use coppaslip on the mating surface. if it moves grease it, if it doesn't coppaslip it. that choice is up to you. i've done it for 30 years with no issues, but the wheels will fuse on if you don't. I got mine off using a 'very big' hammer. hit the tyre, rotate the wheel 180 and hit again. just chock your van with your levelling ramps to ensure it can't move. both my rears were well stuck on.

 

[NZCol]

Other way is nuts back on hand tight, drop it onto the ground and see if that breaks the bond. Have historically on another Cali had to do that and drive it gently round a bit.

 

[briwy]

Throw the VW locking bolts away and get some McGuard ones. The key is a far better fit. And don't grease the bolts, the torque setting is for them dry.

 

[Sandyvan]

Get the wheels off when new, apply copper slip on the mating surface then torque up 180NM.

When refitting the puzzle nuts I don't torque just tighten. I keep the adaptor square on to the stud and tighten while applying inward pressure, to eliminate spinning off and damaging the shoulder of the puzzle shape.

If the wheels wont come off which has happen to me, jack up and make safe, loosen the studs so the wheel can move but not fall off, apply WD40 or similar through the spokes to the mating surface and leave for an hour. Take a lump hammer and hit the tyre not the alloy rim, hit it in different places i.e. twelve, three, six and nine, it has worked every time for me. Don't hit so hard that it bounces and hits the bodywork or you in the face.

I then get a small approx. 50mm wire wheel in a cordless drill, wear goggles and a mask due to brake dust and clean the mating surface, then as per the first sentence above. This works for me, others may have a different method.

 

[Sandyvan]

I don't torque the puzzle nuts up just tight. Never had an issue getting them off, agree with Flying Banana copper slip on the mating faces. I put a dab on the studs as well.

Which part are you disagreeing with Legin? No post just hit the disagree button.

 

[Legin]

Which part are you disagreeing with Legin? No post just hit the disagree button.

I disagree with copperslip on the mating faces (not the spigot). This is because the mating faces disc to wheel are designed to transmit torque to the wheel and lubricant compromises this. The bolts function is to be purely in tension and not in shear. Its basic jointing theory.
Dont get me wrong there will be a factor of safety in the design for insufficent bolt torque and contaminated faces but its not how the joint is meant to work.

 

[flying banana]

I disagree with copperslip on the mating faces (not the spigot). This is because the mating faces disc to wheel are designed to transmit torque to the wheel and lubricant compromises this. The bolts function is to be purely in tension and not in shear. Its basic jointing theory.
Dont get me wrong there will be a factor of safety in the design for insufficent bolt torque and contaminated faces but its not how the joint is meant to work.

But copaslip is NOT a lubricant . It's an anti-seize compound . It's a tricky one and many forums argue for and against it just like here, but if you have ever had to get one of these wheels off in the middle of nowhere I think it's worth doing. If you Google what is copaslip used for it says it's used on mating surfaces which consists of metal particles etc etc i'm on the fence now with this one.

 

[Legin]

Its not tricky at all. All anti seize compounds lubricate hence why you need lower torque settings for anti seize on bolts , I know because I have designed them its just not as good a lubricant as oil or grease.
Aluminium paste is actually the better one to use for higher temperature applications.
The wheel sticks to the spigot not the face so lube the spigot only.
In industry correct bolt stress is often measured by strain (stretch) not torque as it takes all this variability out of the equation. Look up Youngs modulus if there is an interest
Another myth is that an overtightened bolt is really bad , its not but thats for another day.

Im sure you will carry on doing what you are doing but Im making the point from a qualified position so others can make an informed decision.

 

[flying banana]

Sounds like legions the informed man here. Looks like the best course of action is to try get your wheels off at home. When removed clean and copaslip the spigot I'm pointing at with my blue finger. Re fit wheels. I also modified my toolkit to carry a proper socket and bar as shown. Use a Stanley knife to cut bits out and it still shuts tight.

 

[Legin]

Thats the one. Plenty on there.

 

[Sandyvan]

I disagree with copperslip on the mating faces (not the spigot). This is because the mating faces disc to wheel are designed to transmit torque to the wheel and lubricant compromises this. The bolts function is to be purely in tension and not in shear. Its basic jointing theory.
Dont get me wrong there will be a factor of safety in the design for insufficent bolt torque and contaminated faces but its not how the joint is meant to work.

Thanks for the explanation better than just hitting the disagree button. I respect your expertise I truly do, but I have experienced stuck wheels on the mating faces not the spigot hence my previous comments. I did not give it as advise just what I do and have done since owning my first car in 1981 I've raced, rallied, competed in motocross to a high level and owned and driven heavy haulage Europe wide, including the middle east and never had a problem removing wheels in some places that make deepest darkest wet mountainous wales seem like paradise. Try changing two drive and three trailer wheels on your own in the desert in one sitting because the road is so hot the surface has melted to reveal the sharp sub base with a 80 tonne generator on the trailer, there's no AA, RAC out there trust me.
Now I do respect designers, otherwise we would still live in caves and ride horses bareback, but machines do fail even well designed machines.
Its a personal choice, I regularly check my wheels, tyres and torque settings during my cleaning routine we are all different. some people just drive until there's a problem then become reactive instead of proactive, I have learnt that this can be the difference between life and the other dependent on your location.
On another note I've had to help remove locking wheel nuts due to over lightning i.e. torqueing and replacing wheel studs due to being tightened with air guns which I hate seeing, even the ones that can be adjusted for torque. who has them calibrated? I have three torque wrenches and check them against each other and always adjust to "0" on completion of the job. I worked at an ICI plant for a short period and was told by a metallurgist that if a bolt was over tightened it can stretch then is prone to snapping so is very important to torque to the correct setting.
As you rightly say people can now make an informed decision, but I would have welcomed a designer to help me with those wheels in the desert so many years ago

 

[andyinluton]

I removed all mine today . The back ones were stuck to the hub. All cleaned up and coppers lip applied to the contact faces. The locking bolts thankfully all came out OK.

View attachment 43021

I mentioned it in the other thread, the problem is some designs of alloys are a very tight fit over the protruding part of the hub that your finger is on. others are a loose fit.

 

[Bjohnson]

Spent an hour and got one front wheel off this afternoon!!

Tried hitting it with a mallet from the back of the wheel but it was stuck fast. Loosened all the bolts one turn, lowered it off the jack, drove forward and back a couple of feet and ran the steering wheel lock to lock a couple of times - that was enough to break the bond and I could see a tiny gap between the mating surfaces. Took another 20 minutes pushing/pulling top and bottom and left and right to get it off, I was sweating buckets when it came off!!

Wheel had a thorough clean, the wheel mating surface was pretty corroded, so I used a dremel with a brass wheel to get it clean and a hand wire brush on the hub. Applied a very light cost of graphite grease to the mating surface on the wheel and put it back on. I didn't apply any graphite grease to the spigot highlighted in the thread above.

4 standard bolts to the correct torque, the security bolt wasn't torqued up but to a suitable tightness with the standard extension wrench.

I'll recheck the torque after a hundred miles as recommended

What a job though, I'd never get a wheel off on the side of the road!

Hopefully will get the other three wheels done over the next couple days

 

[morpeth clan]

now I have the cali with wheels that come off
I have a dilema
do I copper slip or not after reading this thread ?
I wonder if when washing I should remove a different wheel each time so over a couple of months they are all off and back on ? seems like a lot of work
checked our focus and the nuts come off fine but the wheels were solid
a plank and a gentle few taps with my sledge hammer moved them
so I have our cali and focus with wire brushed mating faces and now undecided whether to grease or copper slip
did not realise wheels cause so much grief

 

[Perfectos]

Punctured and failed to remove wheel

Remove your wheels once or twice a year they won’t be corroded on in that time and you get a bit of practice should you get a puncture. No grease required.

vwcaliforniaclub.com

 

[Alan]

I will be replacing the tyres on my van within a couple of thousand miles so will leave it to the tyre fitter to free the wheels
Should I get a puncture in the meantime I’ll call on the AA for assistance

Alan

 

[B J G]

I mentioned it in the other thread, the problem is some designs of alloys are a very tight fit over the protruding part of the hub that your finger is on. others are a loose fit.

This centre is designed to be a tight fit for wheel centring purposes and to prevent the vehicle load being carried by the wheel bolts. Spigot rings are used to mate wheels with a larger hole, bore. Known as hub centring.
In theory a wheel that has corroded badly in the centre is scrap unless accurately drilled out and a spigot ring is used to rematch the wheel to the hub.
Transporter 5-6 has 65.1mm hub bore.

 

[Daniel Roberts]

Incredible how VW can get it so wrong, building a hub connection that allows oxidisation between wheel and hub. I've found a great garage in South manachester who has a heavy lift ramp, took all 4 wheels off, wire brushed and applied copper grease. Cost me an hours labour £60 plus vat. Great customer service showed me videos of the work.

Sent from my LYA-L09 using Tapatalk

 

[andyinluton]

This centre is designed to be a tight fit for wheel centring purposes and to prevent the vehicle load being carried by the wheel bolts.

If that's correct then surely all the wheel types when brand new would be an equally tight fit. including the steel rims. whereas I've had 2 new types of genuine alloys + a second hand set of steels yet only one type of alloy is a tight fit & then only on the rear hubs.

 

[morpeth clan]

Our Ford Focus was the same
I jacked it up and used a block of wood and a sledgehammer !
All now copper greased
they were stuck at back as well as round hub looks like normal rust where paint was it’s a 66 reg
Our Cali a 15 came off no other it was the locking bolts stuck
£125 at vw to get off
Makes you think if grease was to dry or did not do the trick any puncture when out is a recovery job