Vibration

JMStockholm

JMStockholm

VIP Member
Messages
48
Location
Sweden
Vehicle
T6.1 Ocean 150
Bought a 2023 4M, California with 15 000 km. It vibrates at 80-90 km/h, not below this speed and goes away around 110 km/h.

-No vibration in the steering wheel, its the whole van thats vibrating.
-It's not affected by rpm or gear shift
-It's unaffected by acceleration or heavy torque in a hill vs. freewheeling down the hill, same vibration.
- But it is affected by road condition. Some roads kind of "resonate" with the vibration in the van, while on really flat roads the vibrations gets less pronounced.

Initially suspected the wheels, but have now re-balanced them (they where fine already), and also driven with the winter wheels without any improvement/difference.

Any ideas or pointers on how to troubleshooting process to isolate the root cause?

(Edited after feedback)
 
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Anything on the exterior that could be vibrating at that speed?
Solar panel on roof, loose bumper, etc?
 
Bought a 2023 4M, California with 15 000 km. It vibrates at 80-90 km/h, not below this speed and goes away around 110 km/h. Further, t's not affected by rpm, gear shift or accelerating/power/freewheeling. Although the road surface influences with less vibrations on a super smooth roads. Initially suspected the wheels, but have now re-balanced one set, and also driven with the winter wheels without any improvement/difference.

No vibration in the steering wheel, its the whole van thats vibrating.

Any ideas or pointers on how to troubleshoot / isolate the issue?
Wheel balance?
 
Anything on the exterior that could be vibrating at that speed?
Solar panel on roof, loose bumper, etc?
Nothing, I could think of and needs to be quite heavy. But I'm thinking about something else that's lose like engine bushings or something.
 
I should add It does not only appears or becomes significantly worse during acceleration, on the contrary it's unaffected by acceleration, heavy load in a hill or freewheeling down the hill, same vibration but only around 80-100 km/h not below and not above.
 
Drive shaft
Yes, I guess so, will get beneath and see if I can spot balance weights missing.

Also downloaded a vibration meter to the phone. Maybe the vibration frequency can provide a clue.

How common is this issue on the T6 notwithstanding that this is a one year 15 000 km Cali?
 
Seems odd that the vehicle is ‘vibrating’ and nothing felt through the steering wheel, if you think it’s not the wheel balancing.
 
Seems odd that the vehicle is ‘vibrating’ and nothing felt through the steering wheel, if you think it’s not the wheel balancing.
That's why I think it's definitely nothing in the front and probably not the wheels, rather something in the drive train. I will try to measure the frequency as e.g. the propshaft is turning much quicker than the wheels.
 
If it’s still under warranty perhaps consider booking it into the dealership - otherwise this could just end up being a guessing game
 
Bought a 2023 4M, California with 15 000 km. It vibrates at 80-90 km/h, not below this speed and goes away around 110 km/h.

-No vibration in the steering wheel, its the whole van thats vibrating.
-It's not affected by rpm or gear shift
-It's unaffected by acceleration or heavy torque in a hill vs. freewheeling down the hill, same vibration.
- But it is affected by road condition. Some roads kind of "resonate" with the vibration in the van, while on really flat roads the vibrations gets less pronounced.

Initially suspected the wheels, but have now re-balanced them (they where fine already), and also driven with the winter wheels without any improvement/difference.

Any ideas or pointers on how to troubleshooting process to isolate the root cause?

(Edited after feedback)
It might be a blown or leaking damper/shock absorber (look for signs of damp on the damper body/shaft), check the suspension springs, esp. the rear haven't snapped. Prop shaft is a possibility given it is speed related or drive shaft as others have said. Less likely as you state it can't be felt in the steering nor under effected by braking, but warped rear discs.

Gearbox/Rear Diff are a possibility but i would expect a change between the engine being under load and coasting.

I would say damper given it is triggered by road surface (the vibration would be non damped road wheel which is bouncing about at speed) , but prop or drive shaft if it is directly speed related (although out of balance drive shaft or prop, prop shaft centre bearing would always give a degree of vibration, but will have a specific road speed were is it very bad) Given that you can't feel it directly via the steering, I would say rear components (Springs, Dampers, Driver Shafts, Disc and Prop shaft) are more likely as they won't be felt as much in the steering.

A
 
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I did 5 measured of the vibration during 20s, and there is a main frequency of 11.1 Hz. One measurement also had a spike at 28 Hz. I fed the question into Grok3, and this is it's response. Basically I need to look for something that has the wheels frequency. I hade them very professionally balanced and they where very thorough checking everything, so I still don't think it's the wheels themselves, but could be something related with the wheels in the drivetrain, Grok gives driveshafts as example. But different roads is quite strongly affecting the vibration which makes it a mystery. Anyways heres Groks answer shortened by me:

To determine the source of the vibrations you're experiencing in your VW California T6.1 at 90 km/h with a frequency of about 11 Hz, let’s analyze the possible causes step by step: unbalance in the wheels, an unbalanced drivetrain component like the propshaft, road undulations, or something loose such as engine mounts or water sloshing in the tanks. Your vehicle has 17-inch wheels with 235/65 tires, and this information will help us pinpoint the cause.

The wheel rotation frequency at 90 km/h is approximately 10.8 Hz, which is very close to the observed vibration frequency of 11 Hz. This suggests a strong possibility that the vibrations are related to the wheels.

Evaluate Drivetrain Components (e.g., Propshaft)
Next, consider the drivetrain, specifically the propshaft, as the VW California T6.1 can be front-wheel drive or 4Motion all-wheel drive (which includes a propshaft to the rear axle). If yours is all-wheel drive, the propshaft’s rotational speed depends on the transmission and differential gear ratios.

- **Differential Gear Ratio**: In most vehicles, the final drive ratio is between 3 and 4. Assuming a typical ratio of 3.5, the propshaft rotates 3.5 times faster than the wheels.
- **Propshaft Frequency**: If the wheels rotate at 10.8 Hz, the propshaft frequency would be \( 10.8 \times 3.5 = 37.8 \, \text{Hz} \). A frequency of 37.8 Hz is significantly higher than 11 Hz, so an unbalanced propshaft is unlikely to be the source.

Other drivetrain components, like driveshafts, rotate at the same speed as the wheels (10.8 Hz) in both front- and all-wheel-drive configurations, making them a possible cause.

Engine vibrations typically occur at higher frequencies. For a T6.1 (likely a 4-cylinder diesel), engine speed at 90 km/h in a higher gear might be around 1500–2000 RPM:
- **1500 RPM**: \( 1500 / 60 = 25 \, \text{Hz} \).
- **2000 RPM**: \( 2000 / 60 = 33.3 \, \text{Hz} \).

These frequencies are much higher than 11 Hz, and even harmonics or firing frequencies (e.g., 50 Hz for a 4-cylinder at 1500 RPM) don’t match. Loose engine mounts would transmit engine vibrations, but these would still be at higher frequencies, not 11 Hz.

Road undulations could induce vibrations if their spatial frequency matches the vehicle’s speed to produce 11 Hz:
- **Spatial Period**: \( \text{Speed} / \text{Frequency} = 25 / 11 \approx 2.27 \, \text{m} \).

This implies undulations spaced 2.27 meters apart, this is specific and less likely to consistently produce 11 Hz only at 90 km/h. Road-induced vibrations often excite suspension modes (e.g., wheel hop at 10–15 Hz), but the exact match with wheel rotation frequency suggests a vehicle-specific source over an external one.

- **Engine Mounts**: Loose mounts amplify engine vibrations, but as calculated, these occur at 25–33 Hz or higher, not 11 Hz.
- **Water Sloshing**: Sloshing frequencies depend on tank size and fill level but are typically low (e.g., 1 Hz or less), far below 11 Hz.

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Grok produced this suggestions for instructions to the shop:

**Summary for Repair Shop: Vibration Diagnosis for VW California T6.1 4Motion**

**Vehicle Details**:
- Model: VW California T6.1 4Motion (all-wheel drive), 2023 model
- Mileage: 22,000 km
- Wheels/Tires: 17-inch rims with 235/65 R17 tires, professionally balanced by a reputable shop

**Issue**:
- Vibrations occur at 90 km/h (~100 km/h range), with a frequency of approximately 11 Hz.
- Vibrations are significantly influenced by road conditions:
- Stronger on roads with longitudinal undulations, even if smooth and in good condition.
- Much weaker or nearly absent on flat, smooth roads without undulations.

**Analysis Provided**:
- Wheel rotation frequency at 90 km/h is ~10.8 Hz, closely matching the observed 11 Hz vibration.
- Wheels were ruled out as the source due to recent professional balancing.
- Vehicle’s low mileage (22,000 km on a 2023 model) makes worn suspension components (e.g., shocks, bushings) less likely.
- Drivetrain components considered:
- **Driveshafts**: Rotate at ~10.8 Hz, aligning with the vibration frequency. A minor manufacturing defect, imbalance, or CV joint issue could cause vibrations, with longitudinal undulations exciting the drivetrain.
- **Propshaft**: Rotates at ~37.8 Hz (assuming a 3.5:1 final drive ratio), less likely due to frequency mismatch, though a fault (e.g., universal joint) could contribute indirectly.
- **Engine**: Operates at 25–33 Hz (1500–2000 RPM), not a match for 11 Hz.
- Longitudinal undulations (e.g., ~2.27 m spacing at 25 m/s for 11 Hz) suggest a road-induced excitation tied to wheel speed, possibly interacting with the 4Motion drivetrain rather than suspension wear.
- Other possibilities (e.g., loose mounts, exhaust) are unlikely due to frequency mismatch and the vehicle’s new condition.

**Conclusion**:
- Most likely source: **Driveshaft issue** (e.g., minor imbalance, CV joint defect, or misalignment), triggered or amplified by longitudinal road undulations in the 4Motion system.
- Secondary consideration: Propshaft or drivetrain resonance, though less probable given the frequency.
- Suspension wear is improbable due to the vehicle’s age and mileage.

**Recommended Actions**:
1. **Inspect Driveshafts**: Check front and rear driveshafts, particularly CV joints, for manufacturing defects, slight imbalance, or early wear, even with low mileage.
2. **Examine Propshaft**: Inspect for alignment or joint issues as a secondary check, given the 4Motion system.
3. **Road Test**: Replicate conditions (90–100 km/h on a road with longitudinal undulations) to verify the source and confirm the fix.
4. **Optional Suspension Check**: If drivetrain checks are inconclusive, briefly inspect suspension response to undulations, though wear is unlikely.

**Notes**:
- The 11 Hz vibration ties to wheel/driveshaft speed (10.8 Hz), and longitudinal undulations (not general roughness) are the key trigger. Focus on drivetrain components, leveraging the vehicle’s near-new status and confirmed wheel balance.
 
You can have a perfectly balanced wheel that is out of round.
Swap wheels front to back & see if you can then feel it through the steering wheel.
 
Bought a 2023 4M, California with 15 000 km. It vibrates at 80-90 km/h, not below this speed and goes away around 110 km/h.

-No vibration in the steering wheel, its the whole van thats vibrating.
-It's not affected by rpm or gear shift
-It's unaffected by acceleration or heavy torque in a hill vs. freewheeling down the hill, same vibration.
- But it is affected by road condition. Some roads kind of "resonate" with the vibration in the van, while on really flat roads the vibrations gets less pronounced.

Initially suspected the wheels, but have now re-balanced them (they where fine already), and also driven with the winter wheels without any improvement/difference.

Any ideas or pointers on how to troubleshooting process to isolate the root cause?

(Edited after feedback

Was the problem vibration present from the time you picked up the vehicle?
If so, have you checked the VW electronic Service Record for any work carried out under warranty?

What have you done to the vehicle since pick-up if the vibration wasn't present on pick-up?
 
Was the problem vibration present from the time you picked up the vehicle?
If so, have you checked the VW electronic Service Record for any work carried out under warranty?

What have you done to the vehicle since pick-up if the vibration wasn't present on pick-up?
Yes it was present when picking it up but I thought it was just the wheels unbalanced. Just balanced the wheels nothing else done to it while I owned it but it had a CV joint exchanged before I bought it. I will look into that as the frequency points in that direction.
 
The tire shop carefully checked for roundness
You can have a perfectly balanced wheel that is out of round.
Swap wheels front to back & see if you can then feel it through the steering wheel.
The shop carefully checked for roundness as well, all was fine and the tires are brand new..
 
Yes it was present when picking it up but I thought it was just the wheels unbalanced. Just balanced the wheels nothing else done to it while I owned it but it had a CV joint exchanged before I bought it. I will look into that as the frequency points in that direction.
Unusual at such a low milage.
 
It might be a blown or leaking damper/shock absorber (look for signs of damp on the damper body/shaft), check the suspension springs, esp. the rear haven't snapped. Prop shaft is a possibility given it is speed related or drive shaft as others have said. Less likely as you state it can't be felt in the steering nor under effected by braking, but warped rear discs.

Gearbox/Rear Diff are a possibility but i would expect a change between the engine being under load and coasting.

I would say damper given it is triggered by road surface (the vibration would be non damped road wheel which is bouncing about at speed) , but prop or drive shaft if it is directly speed related (although out of balance drive shaft or prop, prop shaft centre bearing would always give a degree of vibration, but will have a specific road speed were is it very bad) Given that you can't feel it directly via the steering, I would say rear components (Springs, Dampers, Driver Shafts, Disc and Prop shaft) are more likely as they won't be felt as much in the steering.

A
Grok had this comment:
The comment offers a thoughtful and mechanically grounded perspective on the vibration issue.

1. **Blown or Leaking Damper/Shock Absorber**
- **Suggestion**: A failed damper could allow a wheel to oscillate undamped, causing vibrations triggered by road undulations. Look for oil leaks on the damper body/shaft.
- **Analysis**: This is plausible in general, as a compromised shock absorber could permit wheel hop (~10–15 Hz, matching your 11 Hz) when excited by road input like longitudinal undulations. However, your van’s 2023 vintage and 22,000 km mileage make significant wear or failure less likely under normal use. The comment ties the vibration to an undamped wheel “bouncing at speed,” which aligns with the frequency and road sensitivity. The lack of steering feedback supports a rear damper issue over a front one.
- **Opinion**: Reasonable but less likely given the vehicle’s age. A manufacturing defect or early failure isn’t impossible, though, and the road-specific trigger strengthens this case slightly.

2. **Suspension Springs (Especially Rear)**
- **Suggestion**: Check for snapped springs, particularly at the rear.
- **Analysis**: A broken spring could alter suspension dynamics, potentially causing vibrations, but this typically results in uneven ride height, noise (e.g., clunking), or handling issues—not a consistent 11 Hz vibration tied to 90 km/h. At 22,000 km, a snapped spring is improbable unless damaged by an external factor (e.g., impact). The frequency match to wheel speed (10.8 Hz) also suggests a rotating component over a static spring issue.
- **Opinion**: Unlikely given the mileage and symptom specificity. Worth a quick visual check, but not a primary suspect.

3. **Propshaft**
- **Suggestion**: Possible since the vibration is speed-related; could be an imbalance or center bearing issue, worse at a specific speed.
- **Analysis**: The propshaft in your 4Motion rotates at ~37.8 Hz (assuming a 3.5:1 final drive ratio), far above 11 Hz, making direct imbalance unlikely to match your vibration frequency. A faulty center bearing or universal joint might induce lower-frequency chassis vibrations, but these would typically be present across a wider speed range, not just 90 km/h, and might produce noise (e.g., whining). The comment notes constant vibration from an out-of-balance propshaft, which contrasts with your road-specific symptoms (minimal on flat roads).
- **Opinion**: Possible but less likely due to the frequency mismatch. A secondary check if other causes are ruled out.

4. **Driveshafts**
- **Suggestion**: Driveshafts are a possibility, with imbalance or wear causing speed-related vibrations, potentially worse at a specific speed.
- **Analysis**: Driveshafts rotate at 10.8 Hz at 90 km/h, nearly identical to your 11 Hz, making them a strong fit. A minor defect (e.g., CV joint play or imbalance) could be excited by longitudinal undulations, explaining the road dependency. The comment suggests rear driveshafts are more likely since steering isn’t affected, which aligns with your symptoms (no mention of steering feedback). At 22,000 km, wear is unlikely, but a manufacturing flaw isn’t. Our prior analysis also favored driveshafts.
- **Opinion**: Highly plausible, consistent with frequency, road sensitivity, and 4Motion complexity. A top contender.

5. **Warped Rear Discs**
- **Suggestion**: Less likely since braking and steering aren’t affected, but still possible.
- **Analysis**: Warped brake discs typically cause vibrations felt during braking, often through the pedal or steering, and at a frequency tied to wheel rotation (10.8 Hz). You haven’t reported braking issues, and the vibration’s tie to undulations (not braking) weakens this case. At 22,000 km, disc warping is rare without aggressive use or overheating.
- **Opinion**: Very unlikely given the symptoms and vehicle condition.

6. **Gearbox/Rear Differential**
- **Suggestion**: Possible, but a change in vibration between engine load and coasting would be expected.
- **Analysis**: Gearbox or diff issues (e.g., worn bearings) could produce vibrations, but these typically occur at higher frequencies or with audible symptoms (e.g., whining). The comment rightly notes load/coasting differences, which you haven’t mentioned, and the 11 Hz ties more to wheel speed than internal gearing. At 22,000 km, these components should be sound unless defective.
- **Opinion**: Unlikely without additional symptoms (noise, load variation).

### Synthesis with Our Analysis
The comment prioritizes a blown damper due to road surface triggering, followed by rear drivetrain components (driveshafts, propshaft) due to speed specificity and lack of steering feedback. Our prior analysis leaned heavily on driveshafts due to the 10.8 Hz match and 4Motion context, with suspension as a secondary factor. The new details—2023 model, 22,000 km, and longitudinal undulations (not general roughness)—shift the balance:
- **Dampers**: Less likely due to low mileage, but a defective unit could explain undulation sensitivity if it fails to control wheel motion. The 11 Hz matches wheel hop range, though newness weakens this.
- **Driveshafts**: Strongest candidate, aligning with frequency, road-specific excitation, and rear-component focus (no steering feel). A minor flaw could be amplified by undulations.
- **Propshaft**: Possible but less probable due to frequency mismatch and less road-specific behavior.

### Grok's Opinion
The comment is well-reasoned and aligns with automotive diagnostics principles, correctly emphasizing rear components and road interaction. However, given your van’s near-new condition, I’d adjust its weighting:
- **Top Suspect**: **Driveshafts** (rear, given no steering feedback). The 11 Hz matches their rotation, and longitudinal undulations could excite a subtle CV joint or balance issue, even in a new vehicle.
- **Close Second**: **Damper (rear)**. Plausible for undulation sensitivity and 11 Hz wheel hop, but less likely at 22,000 km unless defective from the factory.
- **Lower Priority**: Propshaft (frequency mismatch), springs (no wear evidence), discs (no braking issue), gearbox/diff (no load variation).
 
Yes it was present when picking it up but I thought it was just the wheels unbalanced. Just balanced the wheels nothing else done to it while I owned it but it had a CV joint exchanged before I bought it. I will look into that as the frequency points in that direction.
Now you’ve given us the whole story and told us about the cv joint, it’s pretty obvious that the joint is where you need to be looking. Unless of course that was a previous attempt by the former owner to get rid of a vibration.
The other question is why would a cv joint need changing on a low mileage vehicle.
I’m inferring that it was a rear one that was changed?
 
Now you’ve given us the whole story and told us about the cv joint, it’s pretty obvious that the joint is where you need to be looking. Unless of course that was a previous attempt by the former owner to get rid of a vibration.
The other question is why would a cv joint need changing on a low mileage vehicle.
I’m inferring that it was a rear one that was changed?
Yes, that's my (well AI/Grok3's...) conclusion as well, rear CV joints or drive shafts possibly. I'm in the Alps for two more weeks so have to handle it when I get back to Sweden. If the Swedish VW warranty is valid for service/repairs in Germany I might try to have a look at it when passing through.
 
It's a long thread on the calibord.de about this mysterious issue on the 4M from around 2018 and forward. No clear root cause has been identified. People have exchanged all CV joints, propshaft etc. and the vibrations still there...

 

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