What is going on with Russia!!!

It reminded me of the Scharnhorst making smoke during the channel dash of operation cerberus in WW2.

I half expected a squadron of swordfish to come into view.
 
Did you see the crap coming out the funnels of the Russian fleet that went past the south coast today ?

And the point is?

It is obvious that Russia, backed into a corner, rightly or wrongly, is using an opportunity to engage in sabre rattling.

Which element of that could individual Western countries control? What internal and external acts gave Russia the opportunity?

One should analyse the sotuation from a variety of angles. Putin on his own. Russia since perestroika and then later the looting of state assets under guise of capitalism and democracy. Russia as above, against the backdrop of Western adventurism in the Middle East and the global credit crisis of 2007 onwards.

Serious situations deserve sober analysis.
 
It is difficult to know what is best:
1 - go in heavy like the US and UK in Iraq
2 - light touch like the UK and France in Libya
3 - Stand back like the west in Syria (initially at least)

So then what is the least worst option? Probably number 2, but I really don't know.

What I do know is that the Russians have made it very unlikely that any country with nuclear weapons will trust a treaty to protect their sovereignty in return for giving up their nuclear arsenal.

nukes-4.jpg

Interesting questions:

1 and 2 definitely not. The evidence before our eyes. I have spoken to a few unbiased UN observers on the ground, and there was no need for either 1 or 2. Along with the Chilcott report here in the UK, and general understanding in the US the answer seems to confirm my view.

The only contrarian viewpoints now seem to be those who are defending their own decisions at the time, or those wjo benefited economically. There is a compelling case that of the 2 trillion or so USD spent on military adventures, a smaller proportiom invested back in the US, wisely, would have helped the US, and therefore, the world economy.

Instead, with quantitative easing, and a stock market buoyed by buy backs, coupled with a skewed tax system, we arrived where we did. So real issues were badly handled, with little understanding by largely incompetent elected officials, who were mostly occupied in their own personal domestic politics.

Just as it takes strong leadership to take countries to war, it takes strong leadership to avoid foreign military misadventures. This especially so when the military industrial complex is actually now supported by media. At least during the Vietnam War, the media was somewhat independent. Here, as Seymour Hirsch and others have pointed out, it has long since sold out.

Instead what it takes is a few lines of a jackass article in the Daily Mail here, or a report on Fox in the US, for any balding keyboard warrior with a paunch in Alabama, or say Luton in UK, to get charged up.

Once the blood boils amongst the easily roused rabble the politicians go and commit their misadventures.

Now having caused so much destruction, and misery, in terms of lives in the middle east, and security and jobs here, the steam has now vented. Licking their wounds, but likely benefited personally through various consultancies, a la Blair, politicians have left it to the next lot. Political leadership in the West is at a vacuum.

Anyone who aspires to some level of statesmanship, say Dr Merkel, is then made a figure of hate by the same jackass column writers in the Daily Mail. Or on Fox News.

John Gray, that remarkable thinker, actually predicted most of above in "False Dawn" book of 1998.

Now it is difficult to think of what would have been right to do on 3. First of all, it is difficult to understand what Dr Assad, the UK trained medic was up to. I am wary of the media. Then the barbarous Caliphate on opposimg side had long been backed by the West. Freedom fighters one day, barbarians the next.

Into this mess, Russia, already reeling from its own misadventures in the Ukraine, and from low oil prices, saw an opportunity.

Personally, I think raining down bombs on foreign populations, needs to be carefully considered before undertaken. Let us not buy the superficial reasons provided in the media.

And of course such interventions tend to be selective. Nobody has ever interfered in Saudi Arabia. Look at what is happening in Yemen, a tragedy of immense proportions. Nobody cares because Saudi Arabia is involved.

To understand Syria, one must understand the Saudi-Iran axis. With Assad closer to Iran, with Saudi Arabia and Qatar funding "freedom fighters", trained by Nato Turkey, backed by US, UK and France, an adventure began. It backfired.

Russia got its opportunity. Security situation from Turkey to Paris to Brussels to here deteriorated. A humanitarian crisis, and refugee crisis unfolded. The EU started bickering internally, and GB voted Brexit.

Of course all compounded by various other backdrops, and the story never linear, but these were causal forces, in significant part.

So I remain wary. Of course the war mongering middle aged man will dismiss such an approach as bleeding heart liberal when all it is is pragmatic assessment.
 
I half expected a squadron of swordfish to come into view.
off "our" aircraft carrier

I think that was part of the point in Admiral Kuznetsov cruising past the White Cliff's of Dover: "Look what we have that you don't".

I also think that HMS Dragon was the right ship to shadow it: futuristic design with radar evading flat surfaces.
 
1 and 2 definitely not. The evidence before our eyes. I have spoken to a few unbiased UN observers on the ground, and there was no need for either 1 or 2. Along with the Chilcott report here in the UK, and general understanding in the US the answer seems to confirm my view.

A lot to digest in what you have said, but I still feel that out of the three countries: Iraq, Libya and Syria, Libya has the best chance of recovering first, and of the misery of the general population, the lives of Libyans are least miserable.
 
I also think that HMS Dragon was the right ship to shadow it: futuristic design with radar evading flat surfaces.

Yes probably exactly the right ship to 'shadow' it - assuming our aim is to show the world we have dinky but also expensive and clever toys that could break their big toys if we wanted to. Yes of course we all know that, and the Russians know it. But all this Boys Own stuff about "man marking" - pass the sick bag.

A more intelligent approach might have been just to quietly monitor the Russian force, which was not plausibly going to threaten UK interests in any direct way by steaming swaggeringly down the Channel. Why does HMG need anyway to publicise the details of our security countermeasures? (Well we know why - to keep the Telegraph readership and more excitable back-benchers happy).

We should be more concerned about what Russia is going to do with those carrier-borne strike aircraft when they get them down to the Levant (well actually we know that). But of course we've never ourselves had a strategic pot to pi$$ in on Syria, and we don't even have any moral high ground given what our Saudis allies are doing at the moment down the road in Yemen.
 
I really do not think that you understand the enormity of the treachery of Russia in its dealings with Ukraine, and, to a lessor extent, the treachery of the US with the EU looking on limp wristedly.

In 1994 Ukraine had the world's third largest nuclear arsenals. However, the US and Russia persuaded Ukraine to give us its arsenal in return for guaranteeing its borders (the Budapest Memorandum).

By annexing Crimea Russia has shown its willingness to tear up treaties willy nilly. Shame on the US and EU for allowing this to happen. The EU has five distinct land borders with Ukraine, it should have had the power to stand up to this bullying of its neighbour. It didn't.

This is not the first time that Western Europe has stood idly by while Russia has bullied Ukraine. The 1932-1933 holdomor killed an estimated 2.5-7.5 million Ukrainians, possibly a greater slaughter than the Holocaust if non-Jewish victims are excluded. Stalin went unpunished.

I do not agree with all that Boris Johnson says, but he is right when he calls Russia a pariah state. It should be treated as such and isolated.

I really do not know enough about the ideas of an EU army to know what form it would take: a loose allegiance of states acting under a unified command like the UN does in its peacekeeping roles; or a closer alliance like NATO; or even a fully integrated force acting more like a national army. But what I do know is that it would be no bad thing if the EU had the ability to project military power as a unified force to stand up to present and future threats (though perhaps not with Junker as its commander-in-chief).
Ignoring your comment about how little I understand of Russian treachery, I believe that Russia is treacherous and should be treated as a pariah state.

However, nothing you say changes my view that if the EU wants to create an army to confront Russia then I'm glad the UK will not be a part of it. If such an army is created Russia will be looking for any pretext to test it in battle, and from this test, things could quickly escalate into full scale war.
 
The point is they were producing a lot of **** and venting it via their funnels. Very environmentally friendly. Don't think you would need sophisticated surveillance to spot them. But then in relation to Global Climate Change Putin seems to be all talk and very little action if any at all.

Thank you.

I didn't realise it was about environmental pollution.

Be careful criticising Putin. There is a transitive relationship because implicit he probably favours Brexit not just for geopolitical but other reasons:

Farage <=> Trump <=> Putin.
 
If such an army is created Russia will be looking for any pretext to test it in battle, and from this test, things could quickly escalate into full scale war.

Have you any material to support this theory?

Has the recent build up of NATO troops in the Baltic states made a Russian invasion of those countries any more or less likely?
 
A more intelligent approach might have been just to quietly monitor the Russian force

Monitoring the Russian military build up on the Ukrainian border near the Donbass region do anything to deter Russia from sending in a Buk missile launcher. NATO posturing in the Black Sea and on its land borders with Ukraine may just have had that deterrent effect to save the lives of those on board MH17.

I know that is a very different scenario, but photos of an ageing aircraft carrier belching black soot along the English Channel, shadowed by a high tech British destroyer, may just be the desired deterrent for future miscalculations.

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The Economist article on Russia sums up the situation sensibly in my view.

A faltering state in many ways. Therefore belligerent too and isolated tad. Also intent on showing that corruption exists in West too.

I would recommend a read. Not as simplistic as the Daily Mail, but simplistic not always the truth, contrary to those who read the stuff believe.
 
The Economist article on Russia sums up the situation sensibly in my view.

There are no fewer than 10 articles on Russia (and Ukraine) this week. I have only managed three so far.

The argument that stood out for me was, "What should the West do? Time is on its side. A declining power needs containing until it is eventually overrun by its own contradictions—even as the urge to lash out remains."

Others have mentioned Saudi Arabia and Yemen. Several times I have wondered if this is not linked to the Russian problem. The US and the EU turn a blind eye to the Saudi pounding of Yemen in return for the Saudi's maintaining a low oil price which is destroying the Russian economy. Shameful, but plausible if not probable.
 
There are no fewer than 10 articles on Russia (and Ukraine) this week. I have only managed three so far.

The argument that stood out for me was, "What should the West do? Time is on its side. A declining power needs containing until it is eventually overrun by its own contradictions—even as the urge to lash out remains."

Others have mentioned Saudi Arabia and Yemen. Several times I have wondered if this is not linked to the Russian problem. The US and the EU turn a blind eye to the Saudi pounding of Yemen in return for the Saudi's maintaining a low oil price which is destroying the Russian economy. Shameful, but plausible if not probable.

Your highlighted bold part is exactly the quote I was referring too.

The italicised part is part of a bigger picture. Not just plausible but pretty much open knowledge and no one really denies it (mass consumption media aside).

The West's strategic allies in the Middle East are Saudi Arabia, Qatar and Turkey.

"History is one damn thing after another" said Churchill, and to understand the history there one needs to go back tad.

Post World War 2, the overthrow of Mossadegh in Iran in 1953, long termed a conspiracy theory blaming CIA, but officially acknowledged after the usual generational time lag fir declassification brought the Shah into power. It also swapped American interest for British interest. So Iran was pro US, as indeed was Saudi Arabia with its House of Saud.

The oil crisis following the Yom Kippur war of 1973 was superbly handled by the US who got the Saudis to hand over petro dollar for every possible project handed out to US contractors. And of course non stop arms deals benefiting the US arms producers.

However, in 1979, the Shah was overthrown, and with the Soviet Union going into Afghanistan with an eye on warm waters and oil in the Middle East, things looked shaky. Ties with Iraw were soon cultivated, leading to an Iraqi offensive into Iran in 1980. Iraqi engineers and postgraduate students now started appearing in droves at the best US technical schools.

Also in 1979, Pakistan was cultivated too. They took in 5 million Afghan refugees fleeing the Soviets, funded by Saudi Arabia and the US. The "mujahideen" were born, with visits from George Bush senior snd Casper Weinberger. The mujahideen were provided not nist training and arms but combative non Afghan mujahideen were brought into a purported battle between just God fearing Muslims and Christians vs the Godless Soviets. Remember the film Rocky 4?

In 1989, Soviets withdrew bloodied and exhausted. Unwisely, the US withdrew from the area in haste, and the same "God fearing holy warriors", the mujahideen, metamorphosed into the atavistic Talibsn.

Iraq too had had been turned back after its 1980 to 1988 battle with Iran. The Soviets now defeated in Afghanistan but Iran not brought back into control, a presence in the Middle East beyond just Saudi Arabia was needed.

The opportunity came in 1990 when Saddam Hussein took Iraq into Kuwait.

We know the history since (but but not from the Daily Mail).

In geopolitics, innocence is a relative concept. Most parties end up either doing work which no one would approve, or instigate indirectly, or look the other way when someone else does it to one's purported benefit. Hue and cry only appears when things don't go one's way, or to bear pressure through media and propaganda.

With draconian sanctions on Iraq throughout the 1990s (another topic) the country was helpless. This was well known. Saddam though still had to pirtray hinself in a show of bravado as the local strong man, most notably against Iran and Syria, both Shia states. The action against Iraq in 2003 was ill advised from every possible geo strategic angle.

With Saddam bow gone, and Iran a bigger player, tge issue focused on Syria. Iran is not easily taken out. Syria smaller and with Assad doing his little dictator routine to quell his own version of the Arab spring, an opportunity arose. It was badly taken.

An opportunity was presented to Erdogan, as part of Nato Turkey, to train Syrian "freedom fighters" in Turkey, backed by US, UK, and France in particular, funded by Saudi Arabia and Qatar, two close Sunni economic ally states of the West. The same motley crew of rag tag "freedom fighters" were trained and let loose.

Caliph Baghdadi, or whatever his latest preferred name, was around way before the barbarian ISIS. One can google pictures of him meeting John McCain on the internet. But as with the holy mujahideen become atavistic Taliban, the Syrian freedom fighters metamorphed into barbarian ISIS. A most unholy mess.

As Russia started sabre rattling, seeing its diminished influence on the planet, its only real economic strength was the price of oil. But with a slow down in world wide demand due to the credit crunch, when the Saudis suddenly opened their taps, Russia took a serious hammer blow that left it reeling. Why did the Saudis suddenly open their taps in the manner they did? One to ponder. There are as many denials as theories.

One thing is clear though. The blowback from the military adventures in the Middle East has been both the regugee crisis, and the security situation. Downing of various airlines, and terrorist attacks in Turkey, France, and Belgium, are not isolated incidents. There is indeed a theory that Erdogan was complicit in the Paris attacks as he was left with the refugee crisis and complaining bitterly. The bizarre coup attempt and his subsequent handling show his tenuous grip on matters.

Same too with Russia. Having lost out everywhere, vit seeing the West make a mess of what it gets into, it is keen to be both a nuisance and to be seen as important, and to salvage what it can. Therefore Ukraine, therefore Syria, and therefore more noise.

Once one can look beyond the usual nonsense peddled by one's own media, the jigsaw is less so. The problem is that all countries flood their own populations with one sided view of matters.

Forget mass media. Even intellectual think tanks are set up for one purpose or another. To push an agenda, a viewpoint, and therefore a vested interest.

The bottom line on Russia is that it got handed an opportunity. It is taking it wisely or unwisely (latter in my opinion). But it is also severely constrained.

Leadership in the West has much to answer for too. It is not a simple 1 dimensional left to right political spectrum question. Driven largely by special interests, and unable to form coherent policies they can execute on, Western leaders have ill served their own people.

The adventures in the Middle East have not beem to our benefit in any way, but have of course benefited special interests. Real issues lie not only unaddressed but unmasked.

I tend to scan news from a variety of sources, aware that none are likely presenting a full or unbiased version. But combing versions, clearer pictures tend to emerge.
 
What should the West do? Time is on its side. A declining power needs containing until it is eventually overrun by its own contradictions—even as the urge to lash out remains.
Your highlighted bold part is exactly the quote I was referring too.

I tend to scan news from a variety of sources, aware that none are likely presenting a full or unbiased version. But combing versions, clearer pictures tend to emerge.

Comforting that we both selected the same paragraph as a beacon of hope for the future.
 
There is an insane level of propaganda in Russia going for at least 3 years now.
Common citizens are now 100% sure that US wants to destroy them and whole EU is a bunch of gays that want to rape them.
This is a really bad sign. Same level of propaganda was in Germany before the WW2 started.
We already had 1st step, an annexation of Crimea. Was exactly same by Germany with Austria.
 
Problem with Russia is Putin and how he has manipulated the system to remain in power. The West is hardly a shinning example when we end up with Sons replacing fathers and Wife's replacing husbands in a supposed democratic country with the only alternative being a raving lunatic.
I keep hoping that at some point the greater flow of information to the people will outweigh the corruption and self interest. So far that is not proving an overwhelming success. A revolution is required and we can only hope a way can be found for it to be a peaceful one as the current stitch up by the 1% will not be tolerated forever.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
 
Have you any material to support this theory?

Has the recent build up of NATO troops in the Baltic states made a Russian invasion of those countries any more or less likely?
NATO will protect its members. Juncker is talking about protecting countries who aren't members of the EU but neighbouring states. If this happened Russia would find some occupants of that country who favoured Russia and would describe the EU army as an invasion. This would give them the pretext of 'liberating' it.

Also, an EU army would not include two of the world's most powerful military forces that are in NATO; the USA and the UK.

So, a build up of NATO troops in a NATO member's country will reduce the chance of invasion by Russia, whereas an EU army in a non EU country as proposed by Juncker will, I believe, increase the chance of invasion by Russia.

And, to reiterate my main point, I am glad the UK would not be a part of it.
 
However, nothing you say changes my view that if the EU wants to create an army to confront Russia then I'm glad the UK will not be a part of it. If such an army is created Russia will be looking for any pretext to test it in battle, and from this test, things could quickly escalate into full scale war.
Have you any material to support this theory?
NATO will protect its members. Juncker is talking about protecting countries who aren't members of the EU but neighbouring states. If this happened Russia would find some occupants of that country who favoured Russia and would describe the EU army as an invasion. This would give them the pretext of 'liberating' it.

Also, an EU army would not include two of the world's most powerful military forces that are in NATO; the USA and the UK.

So, a build up of NATO troops in a NATO member's country will reduce the chance of invasion by Russia, whereas an EU army in a non EU country as proposed by Juncker will, I believe, increase the chance of invasion by Russia.
I assume, from your full reply, that you have no material to support your original theory that Russia "will be looking for any pretext to test [an EU army] in battle".
 
Yea, same as a Budapest Memorandum was ignored. :)
Ukraine should have kept nuclear weapons.

An interesting study: given that Ukraine's nuclear arsenal was under the direct control of Russia, would it have made any difference to the Russian annexation of Crimea had that arsenal still been based in the Ukraine?

I suspect the answer is yes because either:
- Russia would have held back from its invasion of Crimea because it needed Ukrainian co-operation to maintain the nuclear weapons, or;
- Ukraine would have negotiated control of the nuclear arsenal in its territory from the Russians, and the Russians would have held back from invasion of a nuclear power.
 
There is an insane level of propaganda in Russia going for at least 3 years now.
Common citizens are now 100% sure that US wants to destroy them and whole EU is a bunch of gays that want to rape them.
This is a really bad sign. Same level of propaganda was in Germany before the WW2 started.
We already had 1st step, an annexation of Crimea. Was exactly same by Germany with Austria.

True, but in between the same propoganda facts come to fore which are hidden here.

Your points about propoganda are spot on. But the West uses exactly the same sort of propoganda to justify and incite.

WMD being the most recent example but "manufacturing consent " through propoganda goes back to World War 1 and before.

Noam Chomsky's "Manufacturing consent" classic has long described it. In the U.S. most educated people are aware of it. Here we tend to believe our own internal propoganda while horrified at external ones. For this reason we are often labelled hypocrites by outsiders, little realising it is not always hypocrisy but a belief that certain things do not happen here.

By the way, "Manufacturing Consent" is so well known in the US, that in the film "Good Will Hunting" the late Robin Williams asks Matt Damon if he has read it. Damon reels off exact quotes in an uninterrupted stream....

The sad thing about Russian propaganda is that in some ways you can see why they would think as they do. Marginalised out of influence and world affairs, until Syria, and watching the West take over with impunity, has been hard for them to take especially as their economy reeled. Their geopolitical opportunities in the Middle East, but as well now in South Asia, have come from the clumsy and one sided approach of Western leaders.

It is not just Syria. South Asia with Kashmir a flash point is another opportunity for Russia. It is not helpful that certain covert state actors have been intent on every possible game in the area. US, China, Russia now all getting involved. The US openly and for a very long time. China because of proximity and economic interests in trade and access to warm water ports. Russia only now because extreme right wing, and one sided, approach by the US, a huge folly in my view, has opened the opportunity for a desperate Russia to get back in.

Watch this space.
 
- Ukraine would have negotiated control of the nuclear arsenal in its territory from the Russians, and the Russians would have held back from invasion of a nuclear power.

Having read this nonsense again, I think that it is completely implausible that Ukraine would have somehow inherited a nuclear arsenal after the collapse of the Soviet empire.
 

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