Leisure batteries lasted only one year?

[soundsk]

Hi there,

I've been reading all the posts I can find about leisure battery issues, but still a bit confused, so please forgive another leisure battery post.

Our Cali is a 2007 model. When we got her (used) she had been sitting abandoned for the best part of 7 years (batteries connected), but still the batteries lasted a couple of days.
On December 2017 I replaced both batteries with the current VARTA 80Ah model (previous ones were 75Ah).
Throughout 2018 I didn't test their capacity because on the road trips we did we drove the van almost every day, so they charged up.

This past winter the van almost didn't come out of the garage, and I did forget to hook it up like VW advises.
Mind you, winters in Portugal aren't vicious, temperatures rarely fall below 0ºC, and the van sits cozy in the garage, so probably the coldest temperature it endured was like 7 to 8ºC.
In February or March, I measured them and they read 8V! Charged them up, and been keeping them topped up like every week or every other week since then, but I'm afraid they've been damaged or perhaps one of them was already faulty when purchased and I never noticed?

Seems like a very short time period for them to get so low/damaged, considering the previous ones were much more neglected and were still usable when we got the van.

I turned on the refrigerator yesterday at noon, controller read 12.7V and 100% (topped it up last week), this morning it's at 12.5V 70%.
(The controller is from a 2015 Cali, but I don't think that makes a difference)

My question is, is there a definitive test I can do to assess their condition? The percentage on the controller, is it important, should I mind it? Or just look at voltage?
I've read somewhere that AGM batteries shouldn't be discharged past 12.5V, but if that's the case, how come it reads 70%? Shouldn't it cut the fridge off?

I have the invoice for the batteries, I can open a claim with the seller, but they are family friends and I don't want to do it unless I know this shouldn't have happened.

 

[WelshGas]

The batteries shouldn't be allowed to drop below 11.5v. Fridge will cut off at this level.
Check the voltage on each battery with a voltmeter. Also check the 50amp fuse on the red +tve pole on the rear leisure battery. This can often blow meaning you are only running on 1 battery.

 

[soundsk]

The batteries shouldn't be allowed to drop below 11.5v. Fridge will cut off at this level.
Check the voltage on each battery with a voltmeter. Also check the 50amp fuse on the red +tve pole on the rear leisure battery. This can often blow meaning you are only running on 1 battery.

Thank you!

Yes, as I read all the posts about the leisure batteries, I tested as far as I had time yesterday, I measured the rear battery twice, and it was reading same as the controller, so the fuse is OK.

I did not however actually disconnect any from the van, hoping to do that later today, so I can actually measure each battery separately and see how they compare.

 

[MattBW]

Although it seems a short time, it is more about the voltage that has caused the damage perhaps? Unfortunately if a battery goes below around 10.5v for a long period of time (more than a few days) the battery may struggle to recover and may have became damaged. 8v is not a good sign unfortunately.

You can sometimes recover them with a smart charger that is designed to desulphate the batteries (remove build up on the plates). I have managed to recover a battery with an optimate charger on one occasion that had been completely depleted but it never quite had the same capacity again.

 

[MattBW]

From another site:

To prevent sulfation when a battery is stored, even if it’s stored at a full charge, a battery must be charged enough to prevent it from dropping below 12.4 volts. Applying this maintenance charge will prevent sulfates from building up. It’s also important to note that while we mentioned a battery shouldn’t be stored in temperatures above 75 degrees, for every 10 degrees above room temperature, the rate of self-discharge doubles.

 

[soundsk]

From another site:

To prevent sulfation when a battery is stored, even if it’s stored at a full charge, a battery must be charged enough to prevent it from dropping below 12.4 volts. Applying this maintenance charge will prevent sulfates from building up. It’s also important to note that while we mentioned a battery shouldn’t be stored in temperatures above 75 degrees, for every 10 degrees above room temperature, the rate of self-discharge doubles.

Thanks!
Can't quite understand how they went so low, I didn't disconnect them in the winter, but there shouldn't be anything in the van drawing power from them. So unless measuring them separately reveals any issues, looks like I'll have to spring 400eur again for another couple of batteries!

 

[Andy]

You really need to test them under load with a battery tester. Much more accurate than voltage test.

Sent from my SM-G950F using Tapatalk

 

[soundsk]

You really need to test them under load with a battery tester. Much more accurate than voltage test.

Sent from my SM-G950F using Tapatalk

Thanks Andy, what kind of battery tester are you referring to? I can try and get one.
Right now they are under load, I have the fridge on since yesterday to see how long they last.

 

[MattBW]

The control panel can draw 0.2a if not fully shut down but I don't know how much charge it uses when off probably still a little probably. Over a long period that will slowly run it down.

Fingers crossed they can be recovered.

 

[katyjw]

I don't know the ins and outs of batteries so can't get too technical, but I had a problem some years ago on our 2006 model, after having the leisure battery replaced it was still depleting. I took it to a camper specialist and after a good search he found that a fault with the heater was causing it to drain (even when it was not in use). So we had it disconnected (not an ideal solution obviously) and we haven't had any problems since.

 

[soundsk]

Got home for lunch and controller was down to 60% 12.3V, that's in 24h with only fridge on.

Took the rear battery out, measured that one and the disconnected terminals (giving me the voltage for the one under the seat, I assume). Both were reading 12.41V. Meanwhile since they were off for a bit, when I connected them again, controller read 12.5V.

Turned off the fridge and hooked up the van to mains, to prevent any further damage.
I think I'll get in touch with the supplier, hopefully warranty may be able to cover one, or both batteries...

 

[soundsk]

Well, got in touch with the supplier and I'll take the batteries out next Monday, and drop them off there. Hopefully I get warranty coverage on both, or at least one (pray to the gods).

With all the reading, including excellent info by WelshGas, I decided to order a few parts and add to the installation, to hopefully have greater control over the batteries health.

Seeing as the rear earth shunt is what closes the circuit for the whole leisure system, I'm going to add a cut-off switch in between the shunt and the rear battery. Also in between will be the amp meter, one on each of the battery's negative pole.

I ordered big red cut-off switch, 2 AWG (35mm2) cable, two amp meters and a fuse box.
I will mount the cut-off next to the water drain valve, where I already routed the cables for the inverter, that way I can switch the whole system off when not in use, assuring there are nothing drawing power.

The amp-meters will allow me to know how much each battery is outputting.
The small fuse box will allow me a tidy connection point for any future upgrades.

Anyone ever do anything similar?

 

[soundsk]

Well, managed to install all of this before the weekend trip.
It works well but I'm going to rewire the power meters so that I have one for each battery and one fot the total.






We were wild camping, so of course no hookup, only charged when engine running, but even so, yesterday battery voltage was already dropping to 12.2V under load. That's only with fridge running on level 3.

So, yesterday first thing after arriving at home was taking the batteries out to drop off today at the supplier, hopefully warranty coverage.

And later last night I bit the bullet and ordered a 100W flexible solar panel, Victron charge controller and cables.
They should arrive Wednesday and it's going to be a busy weekend...

 

[soundsk]

The batteries in question are VARTA AGM Silver Dynamic 80Ah ref. 580 901 080, they were recommended to me by the seller after I gave them the information I had on the original batteries (VW reference and Varta references). They replaced the original 75Ah batteries that came with the van. Are they OK for this purpose?

Does anyone use this particular model of battery? What are the usual voltage levels? How long should they last just using fridge? Right now, after two days of using only fridge, they start going to 12.2V under load. After charging they drop to 12.7V very quickly. Shouldn't they hold 13-12.9V for a while?

I'm writing an e-mail to Varta, as my seller asked me to, but at this point I'm thinking this is going to take a while, might as well get two new ones and if they eventually give new ones I'll sell them or something...

 

[tweeky]

The batteries in question are VARTA AGM Silver Dynamic 80Ah ref. 580 901 080, they were recommended to me by the seller after I gave them the information I had on the original batteries (VW reference and Varta references). They replaced the original 75Ah batteries that came with the van. Are they OK for this purpose?

Does anyone use this particular model of battery? What are the usual voltage levels? How long should they last just using fridge? Right now, after two days of using only fridge, they start going to 12.2V under load. After charging they drop to 12.7V very quickly. Shouldn't they hold 13-12.9V for a while?

I'm writing an e-mail to Varta, as my seller asked me to, but at this point I'm thinking this is going to take a while, might as well get two new ones and if they eventually give new ones I'll sell them or something...

I have also a problem with the Leisure batteries discharging rapidly with everything turned off (apart from residual current being drawn for the control panel etc). My Cali is 2008 model, just been in for its MOT, whilst in at Autotechnica (Hull) I asked them to investigate the unusaul current drain of the leisure batteries, they discover that a brown cable attached to the negatiove side of the leisure battery (located under the wardrobe) when disconnected cured the problem. This cable disappears under the Fridge/Cooker units so looks like it could be a major strip down job. Anyone got any ideas as to what this cable is connected to, could raelly do with a wiring diagram if anyone has one.

Regards

Tweeky

 

[AlanC]

The charger -ve cable? The charger on your van is under the fridge. It could have developed a fault.

Alan

 

[WelshGas]

I have also a problem with the Leisure batteries discharging rapidly with everything turned off (apart from residual current being drawn for the control panel etc). My Cali is 2008 model, just been in for its MOT, whilst in at Autotechnica (Hull) I asked them to investigate the unusaul current drain of the leisure batteries, they discover that a brown cable attached to the negatiove side of the leisure battery (located under the wardrobe) when disconnected cured the problem. This cable disappears under the Fridge/Cooker units so looks like it could be a major strip down job. Anyone got any ideas as to what this cable is connected to, could raelly do with a wiring diagram if anyone has one.

Regards

Tweeky

Could it be the Inverter at the base of the Passenger B Pillar. Anything plugged into it?
If the wire is reattached lift the Flap on the Inverter Socket. It it is functioning then there should be a Green LED top Left corner. The Inverter is switched on by a small microswitch. If this has jammed on then the Inverter will be drawing current even if nothing is plugged in.

 

[soundsk]

they discover that a brown cable attached to the negatiove side of the leisure battery (located under the wardrobe) when disconnected cured the problem

Isn't that the earth shunt cable? If you disconnect it you disconnect all the camping loads right, so that could be why it fixes the problem if something is drawing power from the batteries.

Could it be the Inverter at the base of the Passenger B Pillar. Anything plugged into it?

My van doesn't have a built in inverter for the inner 220V socket, it only works if hooked up. The fridge runs on 12V doesn't it? or is there an inverter for the fridge anywhere?

The charger -ve cable? The charger on your van is under the fridge. It could have developed a fault.

Any way to troubleshoot this and find out if there is anything wrong with it?

One thing though, the level you select on the fridge, the original camping controller you selected actual degrees celsius, on this one (I upgraded to a 2015 model controller) you select temperature by levels, it is always default at level 3. The higher the number the colder the fridge, or the other way around?

Cheers!

 

[WelshGas]

Isn't that the earth shunt cable? If you disconnect it you disconnect all the camping loads right, so that could be why it fixes the problem if something is drawing power from the batteries.



My van doesn't have a built in inverter for the inner 220V socket, it only works if hooked up. The fridge runs on 12V doesn't it? or is there an inverter for the fridge anywhere?


Any way to troubleshoot this and find out if there is anything wrong with it?

One thing though, the level you select on the fridge, the original camping controller you selected actual degrees celsius, on this one (I upgraded to a 2015 model controller) you select temperature by levels, it is always default at level 3. The higher the number the colder the fridge, or the other way around?

Cheers!

Oh, you don’t have the Inverter Socket at the base of the B Pillar next to the Kitchen unit?, as well as a Mains Socket on the end of the kitchen unit.

 

[soundsk]

Oh, you don’t have the Inverter Socket at the base of the B Pillar next to the Kitchen unit?, as well as a Mains Socket on the end of the kitchen unit.

No WelshGas, I believe the built-in 150W inverter was added on the following years models (ours is 2007). I only have a 12V and 220V socket at the end of the kitchen unit, and the 220V is, I believe, directly connected to the 220V external hookup, it does not work unless the van is hooked up to 220V externally. I do have an inverter I fitted myself in one of the cabinets, but that is almost always switched off, I rarely use it.

 

[WelshGas]

Isn't that the earth shunt cable? If you disconnect it you disconnect all the camping loads right, so that could be why it fixes the problem if something is drawing power from the batteries.



My van doesn't have a built in inverter for the inner 220V socket, it only works if hooked up. The fridge runs on 12V doesn't it? or is there an inverter for the fridge anywhere?


Any way to troubleshoot this and find out if there is anything wrong with it?

One thing though, the level you select on the fridge, the original camping controller you selected actual degrees celsius, on this one (I upgraded to a 2015 model controller) you select temperature by levels, it is always default at level 3. The higher the number the colder the fridge, or the other way around?

Cheers!

The higher the fridge level then the colder the fridge.

 

[AlanC]

Any way to troubleshoot this and find out if there is anything wrong with it?

One thing though, the level you select on the fridge, the original camping controller you selected actual degrees celsius, on this one (I upgraded to a 2015 model controller) you select temperature by levels, it is always default at level 3. The higher the number the colder the fridge, or the other way around?

Cheers!

I think your charger will be under the fridge if it is the same as mine. A pain to get to because the fridge has to be lifted out. If you can get it out, testing should be easy as it only needs an IEC mains plug and a multimeter to check the o/p.

Or you could just disconnect the cable and insulate it with some electrical tape. Then see what isn't working. At least the drain will have been stopped.

Alan

 

[tweeky]

Could it be the Inverter at the base of the Passenger B Pillar. Anything plugged into it?
If the wire is reattached lift the Flap on the Inverter Socket. It it is functioning then there should be a Green LED top Left corner. The Inverter is switched on by a small microswitch. If this has jammed on then the Inverter will be drawing current even if nothing is plugged in.

Hi thanks for your input. Have fully checked out the 220 v skt on the B pillar and it is working as it should be.

 

[soundsk]

Well, I have been in an e-mail exchange with the supplier of my Varta batteries, they keep asking technical questions and I keep answering. I doubt they will give any warranty coverage on the batteries, and even if they do it might take a while, so I already bought two new ones.

The new ones hold 12.9V to 13V for a while after charging, instead of immediately dropping to 12.7V like the previous ones. If I don't get coverage on the other ones, do you think it might be worthwhile to invest in a desulphating charger like this one?

Optimate Milenco Charger from Amazon

If it could bring the previous batteries back to a usable state I could sell them on or keep them as spares.

 

[MattBW]

I have recovered batteries in the past with a very old optimate, they can certainly improve the performance but it will never be like new.