Kids on bikes

[Docmark]

We are in an era when evidence and experts are rejected by politicians and others! Myth and legend run riot.

I was in A&E before and after the seatbelt legislation came in. Before the law change I would have to spend ages trying to repair "windscreen faces" - multiple wounds contaminated with glass caused by people hitting the windscreen in even low-speed impacts. In the months after the law changed I saw only 2 cases - a dramatic turn-off of those injuries - which has continued to date.
I also dealt with tragedies where people had been killed or injured by being thrown into the steering wheel or out of cars because of no restraints.That was only a small part of the changes I witnessed - but hey - I was only one observer in this, and single person observation is not convincing scientific evidence.
The evidence gathered in the quoted study came from hospitals around the country and examined injury in the year before the legislation and then afterwards!

 

[Docmark]

Enough said (by me) - all in the past now - lets go camping!

 

[westfalia]

Pah. Evidence is so over-rated. When seatbelt law was coming in my dad hated it. He said belts would "prevent you from being thrown clear in an accident".

I think people get a bit carried away with safety these days, in the days
before the internet when it was okay to mix radial and cross ply tyres
i remember hurtling down a wet road and losing control, the car split in
two and luckily for me i wasn't wearing a seat belt.
I was thrown out and landed on a nice grass bank where i watched
the front end hit a tree.

I often look back and think about that Morris Marina, the hidden safety
features that BL fitted, i think they were way ahead of their game, the
likes of Volvo could have learnt a thing or two from those boffins at BL.
it saved my life did that car.

 

[ArunAlec]

I think people get a bit carried away with safety these days, in the days
before the internet when it was okay to mix radial and cross ply tyres
i remember hurtling down a wet road and losing control, the car split in
two and luckily for me i wasn't wearing a seat belt.
I was thrown out and landed on a nice grass bank where i watched
the front end hit a tree.

I often look back and think about that Morris Marina, the hidden safety
features that BL fitted, i think they were way ahead of their game, the
likes of Volvo could have learnt a thing or two from those boffins at BL.
it saved my life did that car.

There was me thinking my front wheel falling off my Morry Minor was a design fault, it was to stop me corning too fast!

 

[westfalia]

There was me thinking my front wheel falling off my Morry Minor was a design fault, it was to stop me corning too fast!

Thats what I'm talking about, those kind of safety features were way
ahead of time.

 

[Velma's Dad]

There was me thinking my front wheel falling off my Morry Minor was a design fault, it was to stop me corning too fast!

Moggy wheels only used to come off when cornering. If you just went straight on they were fine. (King pins, if I remember right?).

 

[Amarillo]

Thats what I'm talking about, those kind of safety features were way
ahead of time.

In these days of dash cam footage, we can see how runaway wheels can bring traffic to an abrupt standstill.

#2 is my favourite. Just imagine having that happen during your interview for a new job.

 

[Borris]

Moggy wheels only used to come off when cornering. If you just went straight on they were fine. (King pins, if I remember right?).

A good sized bump whilst going in a straight line would also do it. I was that soldier. It was the trunnions that used to wear badly if they didn't receive a regular lube.

ReplyThey don't know they're born today. If you didn't grease your nipples back then the wheels on your car would fall off.

 

[Alain]

I'm not convinced about the effectiveness of cycle helmets for utility cycling (racing, BMX and mountain biking is different). I fear that protective equipment gives cyclists a false sense of security and encourages risk taking that would not otherwise be taken.

This might be true for older kids or adults but not for younger kids as their cognitive abilities are not fully developed yet.

I told my 4 year old she absolutely needs to stop at a crossroads and look before crossing, otherwise she could be hit by a car and die. Her answer: ‘ Why worry dad, you’d still have my little sister’.

 

[Amarillo]

This might be true for older kids or adults but not for younger kids as their cognitive abilities are not fully developed yet.

I told my 4 year old she absolutely needs to stop at a crossroads and look before crossing, otherwise she could be hit by a car and die. Her answer: ‘ Why worry dad, you’d still have my little sister’.

On our way to nursery, my four year old stays on the footway (even though I know this is illegal) and I ride on the road.

On the way home, on the footway, with both boys, I have just started (within the last ten days) to allow my five year old to go ahead and make his own decision about when it is safe to cross two particularly quiet side roads (actually, the same road twice, as it is a short crescent). Prior to that he’d have wait until I’d caught up and told him it was safe to cross.

 

[Chris Hyde]

It’s s no brainer I have 2 sons no sense now one a firefighter and the other ex Marine for God’s sake the suck is very fragile.

 

[ArunAlec]

It’s helmets for me. If I hadn’t been wearing one some years back I wouldn’t have got away with “just” a broken collarbone. Messing about at a very low speed on flat gravel in the New Forest.

 

[Borris]

It’s s no brainer I have 2 sons no sense now one a firefighter and the other ex Marine for God’s sake the suck is very fragile.

?

 

[MartG]

?

I was too frightened to question it...

 

[Amarillo]

From all the responses in this thread, I take it that the general consensus is the Dutch cycling strategy is faulty. Rather than promote cycling as a safe and normal everyday activity, risks should be highlighted, unhelmeted cyclists lambasted as irresponsible and probably normal everyday clothing replaced with pimple-revealing Lycra.

 

[tuono001]

Not that the Dutch strategy is wrong it's more to do with the culture around cycling there. Here it's all about ones self and not those around you.

 

[Borris]

From all the responses in this thread, I take it that the general consensus is the Dutch cycling strategy is faulty. Rather than promote cycling as a safe and normal everyday activity, risks should be highlighted, unhelmeted cyclists lambasted as irresponsible and probably normal everyday clothing replaced with pimple-revealing Lycra.

Why mention the Dutch cycling strategy?

I suspect that riding a bicycle in the UK is an entirely different proposition to doing the same in Holland especially in towns and cities. Their traffic levels, road surfaces, and general altitude towards cycling will be different from those here in the UK. As a result it's likely that their accident stats will be different too. I don't see how using the Dutch model is particularly relevant.

I stand to be corrected but as far as I am aware no one on this forum has said cycle helmets should be made compulsory here in the UK. The choice is yours to decide whether you and your children should wear them as well as the clothes you chose to wear. But please not lycra!

However, wherever you are cycling, whether it be in the UK, Holland or elsewhere, the wearing of cycle helmets and appropriate reflective clothing can only be a good thing. In the event of a crash I'm sure the roads are just as hard to hit with your head in Holland as they are here.

 

[ArunAlec]

I was too frightened to question it...

Tried re reading a few times but still no luck!

 

[Amarillo]

Why mention the Dutch cycling strategy?

I suspect that riding a bicycle in the UK is an entirely different proposition to doing the same in Holland especially in towns and cities. Their traffic levels, road surfaces, and general altitude towards cycling will be different from those here in the UK. As a result it's likely that their accident stats will be different too. I don't see how using the Dutch model is particularly relevant.

The photo which kicked off this debate was of a child cycling in a park, closed to most motor traffic. I don’t suppose that motor traffic levels in similar Dutch parks differs much: an occasional tractor cutting the grass, or pickup emptying bins.

I have also been very clear about the type of cycling where I feel helmets are of limited benefit: utility cycling. The sort of cycling which makes the Netherlands such a great cycling nation, but also prevalent in many towns in the UK, including Cambridge, Edinburgh and parts of London.

 

[Aubisque]

Why mention the Dutch cycling strategy?

I suspect that riding a bicycle in the UK is an entirely different proposition to doing the same in Holland especially in towns and cities. Their traffic levels, road surfaces, and general altitude towards cycling will be different from those here in the UK. As a result it's likely that their accident stats will be different too. I don't see how using the Dutch model is particularly relevant.

I stand to be corrected but as far as I am aware no one on this forum has said cycle helmets should be made compulsory here in the UK. The choice is yours to decide whether you and your children should wear them as well as the clothes you chose to wear. But please not lycra!

However, wherever you are cycling, whether it be in the UK, Holland or elsewhere, the wearing of cycle helmets and appropriate reflective clothing can only be a good thing. In the event of a crash I'm sure the roads are just as hard to hit with your head in Holland as they are here.

Well it's relevant because it shows an example of an entire country (which cycles way more than the UK and is much healthier as a result) that according to you should be one giant hospital packed out with cyclists with head traumas. And the photo that initially triggered the accusationary 'why aren't they wearing helmets !' response on this thread is in an environment very similar or even safer than most Dutch scenarios.

It's fundamentally the same activity, that if sensibly assessed for dangers can be done safely without a helmet and some of the arguments presented as to why it's simply always way too dangerous in the UK don't follow any consistent logic.

I suspect you haven't spent any time in Holland or Denmark, nor read any of the material posted on the macro public health picture, because if you had you wouldn't conclude that "However, wherever you are cycling, whether it be in the UK, Holland or elsewhere, the wearing of cycle helmets and appropriate reflective clothing can only be a good thing." That's statement doesn't survive any scrutiny whatsoever.

 

[Borris]

Amarillo said
The photo which kicked off this debate was of a child cycling in a park, closed to most motor traffic. I don’t suppose that motor traffic levels in similar Dutch parks differs much: an occasional tractor cutting the grass, or pickup emptying bins.

I have also been very clear about the type of cycling where I feel helmets are of limited benefit: utility cycling. The sort of cycling which makes the Netherlands such a great cycling nation, but also prevalent in many towns in the UK, including Cambridge, Edinburgh and parts of London.


Does it really matter where a child is riding his or her bike? Accidents can and do happen in all sorts of unlikely places, inlcluding parks.

Whilst I concede that you have much greater experience of cycling than I have, I for my part, probably have a considerably greater awareness of the effects of accidents of various kinds, including those involving cyclists. Unfortunately, one of the pitfalls of being in the Emergency Services for many years is that I can now see the potential dangers in almost everything.

We are just going to have to agree to disagree on the use of cycle helmets. They may only be of "limited benefit" but I'd take that over no protection at all especially if they were my Grandchildren.

 

[Borris]

"However, wherever you are cycling, whether it be in the UK, Holland or elsewhere, the wearing of cycle helmets and appropriate reflective clothing can only be a good thing." That's statement doesn't survive any scrutiny whatsoever.

Instead of making wildly exaggerated statements as to my stance, just remember that I am on your side. This started out as a thread about Kids on bikes. Since then it's been conflated into a general discussion about the merits of wearing helmets by all riders. Fine.

If you fall off your bicycle you will probably be OK but only probably! By saying that because you have read a report and completed a risk assessment you'll be fine without one is a ridiculous notion. Unless you have a crystal ball to help you make your risk assessment then you haven't a clue about what's going to happen on your next ride. To argue against the use of something that has been designed specifically to mitigate the risk of serious injury or worse, is stupid. To ride a bicycle without a helmet is your choice however those responsible for young children on bikes should take their inexperience and lack awareness into account. Helmets exist to help reduce the risk of injury or death. They might only be of limited use but can you afford to take that chance?

 

[Amarillo]

Instead of making wildly exaggerated statements as to my stance, just remember that I am on your side. This started out as a thread about Kids on bikes. Since then it's been conflated into a general discussion about the merits of helmets by all riders. Fine.

If you fall off your bicycle you will probably be OK but only probably! By saying that because you have read a report and have done a risk assessment you'll be fine without one is a ridiculous notion. Unless you have a crystal ball to help you fill out your risk assessment then you haven't a clue about what's going to happen on your next ride. To argue against the use of something that has been designed specifically to mitigate the risk of serious injury or worse, is stupid. To ride a bicycle without a helmet is your choice however those responsible for young children on bikes should take their inexperience and lack awareness into account. Helmets exist to help reduce the risk of injury or death. They might only be of limited use but can you afford to take that chance?

Exactly that same argument can be extended to nurserys providing their charges with helmets for indoor or outdoor play. And such helmets, specifically designed for play do exist.

http://www.thudguard.com/

 

[Borris]

Exactly that same argument can be extended to nurserys providing their charges with helmets for indoor or outdoor play. And such helmets, specifically designed for play do exist.

http://www.thudguard.com/

Yes, that's true. But I'm pretty sure they are usually only used on children who have a particular need to wear them. That need may be a medical requirement or a behavioural one. There use is clearly to manage risk.

However, as far as I'm aware, they are not universally used by any nurserys, I suspect because the risk of children getting significant head injuries in fully supervised nurserys is percieved as being very low indeed. The risk to a child falling off of a bicycle at speed in an uncontrolled environment is a different matter.

 

[Pips Dad]

I'm not convinced about the effectiveness of cycle helmets for utility cycling (racing, BMX and mountain biking is different). I fear that protective equipment gives cyclists a false sense of security and encourages risk taking that would not otherwise be taken. The best way to make sure that children are safe on their bikes is to reduce the likelihood of them falling off or being hit in the first place, and a cycle helmet is unlikely to help with that.

To reduce the risk of falling off I encourage my boys to cycle sensibly and well within their skill level.

To reduce the risk of being hit I teach my boys to communicate effectively with other road users, which includes gaining eye contact.

When cycling on the road I mitigate the risk of my boys being hit by cycling behind them and making sure that I am very clear to traffic around what our intentions are. If turning right into a side road I cycle slightly ahead, stop and wait while the boys turn safely. If turning left onto a main road, again I go slightly ahead and wait while they turn. Similar if turning right onto a main road.

I encourage the boys to slow down and use their bells on the road outside school where pedestrians might cross without looking.

At very quiet road junctions I encourage my older boy to wait, look and make his own decisions about whether it is safe to proceed and tell me that decision before proceeding ahead of me.

What I will not do is place a helmet on their heads then disregard my responsibility to ensure they cycle in a safe manner.

Accidents still happen even with all the common sense training in the world.
Wear a helmet at all times. Stupid not to.
It saved my elder son’ s life when he had a cycling accident and ended up in intensive care for three days.