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Disappearing engine coolant

B

Bill

Guest User
My Cali went into the main dealers for a belt and water pump change in March of this year. It is a 2012 T5.1 2L 180 DSG bi-turbo, 52,000 miles on the clock, and always driven with a gentle right foot. Shortly afterwards I found in my weekly checks that I was having to add coolant which I had never had to do previously. The situation got progressively worse until I the level in the expansion tank was dropping from the MAX mark to the MIN mark in just 120 miles of careful driving. There was no sign of a leak in the engine bay or on the ground beneath the vehicle. I was curious to know if there was any connection between fitting of the water pump and need to top-up the coolant. Time to let the experts have a look, so I booked back into the main dealer. They found no problem with the water pump but informed me that there was white smoke coming from the exhaust (although I had never seen any) and carried out pressure tests. The EGR valve (oil cooler) was considered a suspect (damp patch) so it was blanked off and pressure tested again. The engine side showed no drop in pressure whilst the EGR showed a slight drop in pressure. From this they concluded that there was no problem with the engine and that the EGR valve needed to be replaced despite this being a fairly rare occurrence on the 180 engine. I winced at the quoted 8.9 hours labour + £100 / hour! + cost of part + VAT (it’s more expensive on the bi-turbo as it’s in a different position to the single turbo). A contribution towards parts and labour was requested and agreed much to my relief, although it still left a huge bill. Maybe you have guessed the next part. When the vehicle was road tested prior to being returned to me the coolant level was still dropping! They advised that the engine then needed to be stripped to check the cylinder head gasket, the cylinder head for distortion and possibly even damage to the block (unlikely). This confused me as the result of blanking the EGR valve showed no pressure drop on the engine side which convinced them that the EGR valve was at fault. When I queried this I was informed that it was possible for two major failures to occur simultaneously (EGR valve and perhaps a head gasket) and presumably only by rectifying and eliminating one can the other be identified. It seems like a massive, and convenient, coincidence to me. I am now facing a bill for an additional 9 hrs labour (strip and rebuild) + any parts etc, which will perhaps double or more the original bill.

I have tried to report events as accurately as possible but I am not a vehicle technician so my understanding is limited to what I have been told. I accept that at 52k I will have repair bills and have to deal with normal wear and tear issues, but this seems excessive for a supposedly reliable brand especially considering that the vehicle has been main dealer maintained throughout its life and always driven carefully. I am left with lots of unanswered questions and would greatly appreciate any advice (apart from robbing a bank to pay for this disaster!). Have I been unbelievably unlucky or has perhaps the wrong diagnosis been made in the first place? Should I have to pay for repair work that has not solved the problem? Could the cause be anything else? What steps can I take to seek redress from VW and from the dealership if you think that is appropriate? Many thanks.
 
As soon as I began reading I assumed it to be a head gasket.

There is no way this should occur at such low mileage unless something has gone wrong.

Has it overheated at any point?

They should be able to easily diagnose a failing head gasket by using a chemical tester that can detect carburants in the water.

I'd be seriously upset if I was told one thing and it turned out to be incorrect.

Forums are for happy amateurs, the pros should know better!

I don't suppose you have much option really.
 
Thanks sidepod. I'll make a note of your advice about the chemical tester and query it with them.
 
Sounds very much to me they miss diagnosed it and are trying to wriggle out of it. I know it doesn't help much but most competent garages would be able to rule out a head gasket if it's not leaking coolant it's using it somewhere
Good luck getting it sorted
 
The problem is the EGR valve also has a cooler/mini-radiator as part of the assembly so engine coolant can be lost there if there is a perforation into the exhaust flow. I had the same problem on a Land Rover Puma Defender.

Diagnosing where the coolant is lost can be very difficult. Testing the coolant for exhaust or diesel contamination doesn't always give a + tve result. You did state there was a " suspect damp patch " around the EGR valve. Did they find a problem with the valve/cooler?
Having now ruled the EGR valve out then the Head Gasket is probably a prime suspect.
 
The EGR valve itself had no connection to the coolant system so I don't see why they have replaced it. However the exhaust gas is cooled before entering the EGR valve and it must be this they referred to. This cooler does use the coolant (not oil) so could well have cracked allowing water to mix with the exhaust which would account for the white smoke. Perhaps they replaced the valve as a precaution in case it was damaged.
Seems somewhat coincidental that it all started after the water pump change though. Could they have damaged the cooler during that work.

Just seen cross posted with WG who had pointed out the same
 
Was the "white smoke" actually steam coming out of the exhaust due to water entering a cylinder and being heated?

That's what I reckon.

So head gasket from the start.
 
Was the "white smoke" actually steam coming out of the exhaust due to water entering a cylinder and being heated?

That's what I reckon.

So head gasket from the start.
Water doesn't compress. Water in cylinder = bang
 
My Cali went into the main dealers for a belt and water pump change in March of this year. It is a 2012 T5.1 2L 180 DSG bi-turbo, 52,000 miles on the clock, and always driven with a gentle right foot. Shortly afterwards I found in my weekly checks that I was having to add coolant which I had never had to do previously. The situation got progressively worse until I the level in the expansion tank was dropping from the MAX mark to the MIN mark in just 120 miles of careful driving. There was no sign of a leak in the engine bay or on the ground beneath the vehicle. I was curious to know if there was any connection between fitting of the water pump and need to top-up the coolant. Time to let the experts have a look, so I booked back into the main dealer. They found no problem with the water pump but informed me that there was white smoke coming from the exhaust (although I had never seen any) and carried out pressure tests. The EGR valve (oil cooler) was considered a suspect (damp patch) so it was blanked off and pressure tested again. The engine side showed no drop in pressure whilst the EGR showed a slight drop in pressure. From this they concluded that there was no problem with the engine and that the EGR valve needed to be replaced despite this being a fairly rare occurrence on the 180 engine. I winced at the quoted 8.9 hours labour + £100 / hour! + cost of part + VAT (it’s more expensive on the bi-turbo as it’s in a different position to the single turbo). A contribution towards parts and labour was requested and agreed much to my relief, although it still left a huge bill. Maybe you have guessed the next part. When the vehicle was road tested prior to being returned to me the coolant level was still dropping! They advised that the engine then needed to be stripped to check the cylinder head gasket, the cylinder head for distortion and possibly even damage to the block (unlikely). This confused me as the result of blanking the EGR valve showed no pressure drop on the engine side which convinced them that the EGR valve was at fault. When I queried this I was informed that it was possible for two major failures to occur simultaneously (EGR valve and perhaps a head gasket) and presumably only by rectifying and eliminating one can the other be identified. It seems like a massive, and convenient, coincidence to me. I am now facing a bill for an additional 9 hrs labour (strip and rebuild) + any parts etc, which will perhaps double or more the original bill.

I have tried to report events as accurately as possible but I am not a vehicle technician so my understanding is limited to what I have been told. I accept that at 52k I will have repair bills and have to deal with normal wear and tear issues, but this seems excessive for a supposedly reliable brand especially considering that the vehicle has been main dealer maintained throughout its life and always driven carefully. I am left with lots of unanswered questions and would greatly appreciate any advice (apart from robbing a bank to pay for this disaster!). Have I been unbelievably unlucky or has perhaps the wrong diagnosis been made in the first place? Should I have to pay for repair work that has not solved the problem? Could the cause be anything else? What steps can I take to seek redress from VW and from the dealership if you think that is appropriate? Many thanks.
I would have thought the logical place to start after a visual inspection is with a pressure test of the coolant system to locate a low level leak from a hose or joint in the coolant system. Do you know if VW performed this test? I think the charge is approx £85.

I had a similar problem with a 2011 Passat which had a similar rate of coolant loss (possibly a moderately higher rate than yours) and this proved to be leak from the water pump which is a common fault with VWs. I was expecting the leak to get worse and the source of the problem to become more obvious however this didn't happen even after several months. In fact the leak rate lowered rather than got worse.

The VW diagnosis of a leaking water pump seems to rely on evidence (a trace of pink coloration) left behind from the leaking coolant near the pump. This is how mine was diagnosed and the pressure test that I requested was judged to be not required by VW. Perhaps your leak had not been going on long enough or hadn't leaked enough coolant to leave this evidence behind.

Obviously if the problem is your water pump it would be a faulty unit or an incorrectly fitted unit rather than the early life failure that is the common fault and this is less likely to occur.

Unfortunately there are multiple causes of coolant loss and possibly the best way to hold VW to account is to make sure they followed protocol during the diagnosis prior to recommending very expensive repairs.
 
Thanks very much for your informed comments folks. I really appreciate the help it gives me. I believe they did carry out more than one pressure test but also accept the point about a possible leak from the pump not having time to show itself as JohnnyP stated and I have no way of knowing if the cooler was damaged during fitting of the pump briwy. They did talk about the possibility of a hair-line crack in the valve/cooler prior to removing it but I have not been given a definite answer about the condition of the EGR valve when it was removed as WelshGas has asked but. I have however asked for it to be kept for possible inspection by an independent engineer if required. I wouldn't know what to look for myself! I know that a head gasket is a possibility especially as three of your replies mention it. What is the likelihood of it being a gasket failure as opposed to the more serious problem of a warped head and what are the implications if warping is found?
 
The head can be skimmed to take out any warping.
 
The EGR valve itself had no connection to the coolant system so I don't see why they have replaced it. However the exhaust gas is cooled before entering the EGR valve and it must be this they referred to. This cooler does use the coolant (not oil) so could well have cracked allowing water to mix with the exhaust which would account for the white smoke. Perhaps they replaced the valve as a precaution in case it was damaged.
Seems somewhat coincidental that it all started after the water pump change though. Could they have damaged the cooler during that work.

Just seen cross posted with WG who had pointed out the same

EGR valve has been modified & now is one complete part valve & cooler. Had mine replaced last year & is quite a sizeable lump.
 
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