EGR - Insufficient Flow - £1700

[Irishladdie]

Hi Folks looking for some advise,

I have a 2014 180 biturbo Cali (47,000 mile) and the engine warning light illuminated. Engine code CFC
Took to the my local commercial VW garage in Edinburgh (where I bought it) and was told the diagnosis was "Insufficient Flow" in the EGR.
Have been quoted £1700 to replace the unit .
Parts was £945 and 5 hours at £110 (what??) per hour plus VAT.

Have read some of the forum articles and realise that it appears to be a regular failure. But costs seem to be a lot lower.

Is this normal? I have been told by a friend that for my engine it should be two separate parts (EGR + cooler). Is there any option to flush or clean out the EGR?

Have contacted VW customer service as shocked and waiting a call back. (Particularly as the ECU also failed a few months ago and set me back another £1700 )

My friend also mentioned contacting Darkside Development in Leeds (I have time to drive as no work due to cover ), who may be able to solve at cheaper price. Any experience?

 

[Perfectos]

Are you a member of the AA or VW assist ?

 

[Alan Andrews]

I would look to try to run some good cleaner stuff through the system.

I have an old mini that is highly tuned and always has issues at MOT time because of emissions.

I run Cataclean through the system, taking care to follow the instructions to the letter, and have always had a MOT pass.

Cataclean comes in 2 versions....petrol and diesel so make sure you use the correct one.

Ideally you'll need access to a diagnostic tool to compare before and after.

 

[Perfectos]

Hi Irishladdie
Your in luck

I have just had the EGR tube and a flush of the system carried out at by the AA
My van in 2018, with 12,000 miles on the clock.

After a 350 mile drive and some local one hour drives the Engine management light came on, call VW Assist who sent out an AA patrol.
AA man reset the engine management light, bu5 said it would come back on (which the engine management light did come back on

However the first AA man said that the AA have been supplied with machines to flush the build up of exhaust sludge from the system! He asked is I wanted to get it fixed whilst I was at the campsite.
Obviously I accepted his offer, several days later ( after Bank holiday) another AA patrol attended my vehicle, he had a machine with him, long story short, the existing EGR pipe was removed the EGR valve was fitted with a device to hold it open, the machine was connected to the engine and a valve was connected to my vans exhaust, the AA man added a chemical to two 10L water drums, which were attached to the machine. My van was started, the machine was started and the flush process commenced.
The AA man went to his van, got a band new “modified “ EGR pipe
The modified (brand new) pipe has a slot in the top of the tube, the old pipe has two holes in the end.
He also pulled out several old type design, used but cleaned up, which presumably they fit at the road side when the machine is not available and VW do not authorise the modified EGR pipe to be fitted.
On inspection, the old EGR pipe has quite a lot of soft black tar in the end where the holes were, the holes were partially blocked by the black gunk that was residing in the tube, which causes the sensor to register low flow rate and throw up the engine management light.
Whilst the machine carried out its job, flushing the EGR system, I spoke the AA man.
Who told me that the EGR low flow is a very common issue particularly on T6 vans, VW had recognised the “design fault” and had re-engineered the EGR pipe to change the design and prevent the issue.
VW have provided the AA with these machines and the modified VW EGR tube, so they can carry out the mod at the road side, saving on breakdown and recovery costs.
The AA man told me that he as carrying out the work on behalf of VW ( and VW assist) the work is authorised by VW and is fully warranted by VW,
VW have widley acknowledged the issue and therefore provide the parts and equipment to the AA so they can carry ou5 the remedial works. The work will be registered by VW assist, presumably updating my vehicle records to show the updated EGR pipe has been supplied and fitted.

The whole process, including me chatting to the AA man (so slowing him up) took about an hour ! The part, IMO would be £20, the 2 litres of chemical would be pence!

IMO, the dealer is having your pants down

VW are aware of the issue with the EGR pipe on the T6

My van is still in warranty, however, May I suggest you either contact VW assist if you are a member, if you are not a member, suggest you join, call vw assist and have a discussion regarding the above and having the remedial work carried out, (you may need to drive a few miles from your home to ensure the costs of recovery etc warrant the cost of VW assist authorising the work)
I have photos of the original EGR tube, the new modified design and the machine , chemical etc that was used by the AA
I will post them in this thread for all to see.

 

[Perfectos]

Old EGR pipe with holes in the end ( which block up )

 

[Perfectos]

New EGR pipe vs old EGR pipe

 

[Perfectos]

Machine and equipment used at site

 

[Perfectos]

Other photos showing the EGR works carried out

 

[Irishladdie]

Hi Perfectos,
Thanks for that excellent reply and advice. Amazing. I'm a member of RAC through my bank account, but will look at the AA option.
Interesting, when the light came on I was on the west coast and the service guy at VW mentioned that they may 1) sensor issue 2) requirement to flush or 3) change the part. Now that its in the garage there has been no mention of flushing it. I'll follow up with them about that.
Otherwise, time to join AA, have an excuse to hit a campsite, and then ring AA .

 

[Perfectos]

The chemical when mixed with the water Is delivered into the EGR part of the Exhaust, via the white tube, this is where the EGR valve is held open via a threaded screw jack, the red tube is where the dirty fluid is returning to the machine, along with exhaust gases before be the Gunk is emptied into a plastic tank for disposal as waste.

 

[Irishladdie]

Hi Perfecto,

Can I just check what engine you have. I just rang VW Edinburgh Service and the guystated you can't flush a bi-turbo?

 

[Perfectos]

I have a 150 T6 ( so single turbo)

I would speak to the RAC and a few other VW garages and independent VW specialist.
The cost they are quoting you is mental the EGR tube looks to be the problem causing “low flow” fault to be registered.

 

[Perfectos]

Try for some “ good will “ as this is a very common problem on the Transporter and is a known issue that VW are aware of.

No way are parts that expensive.

I can’t see how the bi turbo would be that different from a single turbo as far as the EGR side of thing goes.
Obviously there will be differences but the principle is the same, a flap to redirect exhaust gases and a tube to carry them. It’s the tube that blocks due to poor design ( known poor design)

If in were a cynical type I would even suggest this should be a recall issue, as it’s very wide spread, the fact that the part has been changed and the AA have been provided with machine to carry out the work remotely furthers this point.
A more cynical person may even suggest this is a cash cow for dealers !

Pursue VW and let them know you know what you do and how common the problem is.

Still sound like the dealer is trying to look up your kilt !

 

[TripleBee]

I am still happy I only have the lousy 140hp.
Had to change my EGR at 45000 km, but now, 100000 km later, it's still good. And only one hour of labour, and the part of € 350.

But I feel your pain.
My van went in limp mode on the third day of a holiday, 1000 km from home, in France...

 

[Perfectos]

IMO
You could remove the EGR tube clean it out, the gunk is very soft and would come out easily, refit, clear the code and I bet the problem would disappear for a considerable time.

Leaving you your cash to buy a VCDS and have a holiday with the £1700 you did not spend with the dealer!
The VCDS would be circa £300 allowing you to clear the code when you have to repeat the tube clearance in future, which I have no doubt you will.

 

[Irishladdie]

Try for some “ good will “ as this is a very common problem on the Transporter and is a known issue that VW are aware of.

No way are parts that expensive.

I can’t see how the bi turbo would be that different from a single turbo as far as the EGR side of thing goes.
Obviously there will be differences but the principle is the same, a flap to redirect exhaust gases and a tube to carry them. It’s the tube that blocks due to poor design ( known poor design)

If in were a cynical type I would even suggest this should be a recall issue, as it’s very wide spread, the fact that the part has been changed and the AA have been provided with machine to carry out the work remotely furthers this point.
A more cynical person may even suggest this is a cash cow for dealers !

Pursue VW and let them know you know what you do and how common the problem is.

Still sound like the dealer is trying to look up your kilt !

Thanks for that, I do feel like I'm being pillaged on this. And since when has service tech labour been £110 per hour + vat????

Have contacted VW customer service and asking for some good will. Awaiting their call back. And above will be interesting ammo; known problem, should be a recall issue, part of the exhaust system so should be covered legally, why design a system that can't be flushed, etc...

Will let you know how I get on .

 

[TripleBee]

Thanks for that, I do feel like I'm being pillaged on this. And since when has service tech labour been £110 per hour + vat????

Have contacted VW customer service and asking for some good will. Awaiting their call back. And above will be interesting ammo; known problem, should be a recall issue, part of the exhaust system so should be covered legally, why design a system that can't be flushed, etc...

Will let you know how I get on .

Don't think of any recall.
This is all due to driving style. Some will never have this problem (high mileage, highway), some will have it more frequently (short distances, cold engine, small roads).

Don't forget, this all is for environmental reasons!

 

[Irishladdie]

I would look to try to run some good cleaner stuff through the system.

I have an old mini that is highly tuned and always has issues at MOT time because of emissions.

I run Cataclean through the system, taking care to follow the instructions to the letter, and have always had a MOT pass.

Cataclean comes in 2 versions....petrol and diesel so make sure you use the correct one.

Ideally you'll need access to a diagnostic tool to compare before and after.

Thanks for tip

 

[WelshGas]

Hi Irishladdie
Your in luck

I have just had the EGR tube and a flush of the system carried out at by the AA
My van in 2018, with 12,000 miles on the clock.

After a 350 mile drive and some local one hour drives the Engine management light came on, call VW Assist who sent out an AA patrol.
AA man reset the engine management light, bu5 said it would come back on (which the engine management light did come back on

However the first AA man said that the AA have been supplied with machines to flush the build up of exhaust sludge from the system! He asked is I wanted to get it fixed whilst I was at the campsite.
Obviously I accepted his offer, several days later ( after Bank holiday) another AA patrol attended my vehicle, he had a machine with him, long story short, the existing EGR pipe was removed the EGR valve was fitted with a device to hold it open, the machine was connected to the engine and a valve was connected to my vans exhaust, the AA man added a chemical to two 10L water drums, which were attached to the machine. My van was started, the machine was started and the flush process commenced.
The AA man went to his van, got a band new “modified “ EGR pipe
The modified (brand new) pipe has a slot in the top of the tube, the old pipe has two holes in the end.
He also pulled out several old type design, used but cleaned up, which presumably they fit at the road side when the machine is not available and VW do not authorise the modified EGR pipe to be fitted.
On inspection, the old EGR pipe has quite a lot of soft black tar in the end where the holes were, the holes were partially blocked by the black gunk that was residing in the tube, which causes the sensor to register low flow rate and throw up the engine management light.
Whilst the machine carried out its job, flushing the EGR system, I spoke the AA man.
Who told me that the EGR low flow is a very common issue particularly on T6 vans, VW had recognised the “design fault” and had re-engineered the EGR pipe to change the design and prevent the issue.
VW have provided the AA with these machines and the modified VW EGR tube, so they can carry out the mod at the road side, saving on breakdown and recovery costs.
The AA man told me that he as carrying out the work on behalf of VW ( and VW assist) the work is authorised by VW and is fully warranted by VW,
VW have widley acknowledged the issue and therefore provide the parts and equipment to the AA so they can carry ou5 the remedial works. The work will be registered by VW assist, presumably updating my vehicle records to show the updated EGR pipe has been supplied and fitted.

The whole process, including me chatting to the AA man (so slowing him up) took about an hour ! The part, IMO would be £20, the 2 litres of chemical would be pence!

IMO, the dealer is having your pants down

VW are aware of the issue with the EGR pipe on the T6

My van is still in warranty, however, May I suggest you either contact VW assist if you are a member, if you are not a member, suggest you join, call vw assist and have a discussion regarding the above and having the remedial work carried out, (you may need to drive a few miles from your home to ensure the costs of recovery etc warrant the cost of VW assist authorising the work)
I have photos of the original EGR tube, the new modified design and the machine , chemical etc that was used by the AA
I will post them in this thread for all to see.

Different EGR on the 180 BiTurbo.

 

[Perfectos]

Don't think of any recall.
This is all due to driving style. Some will never have this problem (high mileage, highway), some will have it more frequently (short distances, cold engine, small roads).

Don't forget, this all is for environmental reasons!

Hi TripleBee
The accepted Train of thought is that driving styles affect this issue, it was a conversation I had with the AAGuy, however I pointed out that I have a DSG gearbox, which In the most part decides on engine revs vs Gear change etc.

The fact VW have modified the design of the EGR pipe due to large numbers of problems is key. I.e VW know it’s a poor design, a design which cares nothing for engine efficiency but only cares for the measurements at the exhaust pipe exist!

I like your tongue in check comment regarding the environmental issues these engines are supposed to over come and agree whole heartedly, chemical flush, new manufacturer parts, chemical disposal, old parts in the bin, recovery vehicle miles, fuel etc, VW have done a sterling job for the environment.
I had a similar convo with the AA guy, who agreed!
The design is based around the cleanliness of the exhaust gasses so manufacturers can claim they have reached or exceeded a particular set of requirements, not efficiency of the fuel usage vs power vs life time of the vehicle and it’s combo, which should be the more important factors when considering environmental impacts !

 

[WelshGas]

Thanks for tip

The EGR is difficult to replace on 180 as the whole front has to come off. Bumper, radiator grill, intercooler and radiator and aircon heat exchanger moved/removed. The 140 engine is a lot easier.
The T6 does have a problem with the EGR, not so the T5. 1 180 BiTurbo so the AA / VW Assistance are unlikely to offer that procedure, mentioned above.

 

[Perfectos]

Different EGR on the 180 BiTurbo.

Hi WG,

Is the principal not the same ?

 

[WelshGas]

Hi WG,

Is the principal not the same ?

Yes, but compared to the T6 where it is not uncommon it is not common on the 180. Also the EGR is, I believe, a different design and positioned differently.

 

[TripleBee]

Yes, the principal is the same, but the design is not.
And that is where sometimes problems can occur.

 

[Perfectos]

Post from T6 forum regarding cost of parts and replacement of EGR and cooler

[Guide] Replacing EGR Cooler On A 180PS Engine

Ok not aiming for a how to but just replaced the egr valve and cooler on my van. Van is a 2015 T6 kombi, dsg and 4 motion with the 180bhp CFCA engine Was throwing egr related fault codes and putting it in limp mode. Had never noticed it using any oil or water so wasn't too worried about...

www.t6forum.com