I can see why we will never have Aires in the UK

[Borris]

Our local council car park has recently been taken over by the local traveling fraternity or can I can I say Gypsies? This is not unusual, as this area has been used by them most years and they leave kindly a £1,000+ clean up bill for my local council which includes building rubble, toilet waste etc. However my main worry is each year they seem to be ditching the caravans and using motorhomes and this time I would say 75% were luxury big whites ( all on Irish plates of course) If this continues I can see more and more councils clamping down on overnight parking in this country and more height restrictions going up at beauty spots and car parks.

Our local council car park has recently been taken over by the local traveling fraternity or can I can I say Gypsies? This is not unusual, as this area has been used by them most years and they leave kindly a £1,000+ clean up bill for my local council which includes building rubble, toilet waste etc. However my main worry is each year they seem to be ditching the caravans and using motorhomes and this time I would say 75% were luxury big whites ( all on Irish plates of course) If this continues I can see more and more councils clamping down on overnight parking in this country and more height restrictions going up at beauty spots and car parks.

So are travelers ever prosecuted for what amounts to open fly tipping? I doubt if it happens that much, if at all. As far as I am aware, the authorities often seem to be reluctant to take them on and sadly that often seems to include the police as well. Very often the mess builds up whilst they are on site then once they've trashed the area they move on. This pattern is well known so unlike the those anonymous anti social types who fly tip at the dead of night in country lanes and beauty spots, it shouldn't be that difficult to gather the necessary evidence for prosecution whilst they are on site and they shouldn't be that dificult to trace if they've moved on either. It's time this issue was dealt with using less tolerance and understanding and more enforcement and seizure of assets of those responsible.

 

[Amarillo]

So are travelers ever prosecuted for what amounts to open fly tipping? I doubt if it happens that much, if at all. As far as I am aware, the authorities often seem to be reluctant to take them on and sadly that often seems to include the police as well. Very often the mess builds up whilst they are on site then once they've trashed the area they move on. This pattern is well known so unlike the those anonymous anti social types who fly tip at the dead of night in country lanes and beauty spots, it shouldn't be that difficult to gather the necessary evidence for prosecution whilst they are on site and they shouldn't be that dificult to trace if they've moved on either. It's time this issue was dealt with using less tolerance and understanding and more enforcement and seizure of assets of those responsible.

I think the issue may well be proving which individual(s) are responsible for the mess. It may well be possible to prove the mess is caused by a particular group, but I don't suppose it is possible to hold an entire group responsible for the actions of part of that group "joint enterprise". The crime of murder is, I think, the only exception.
https://www.theguardian.com/news/20...uk-how-do-11-people-go-to-jail-for-one-murder


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[MattBW]

I think much of our legal system relies on people being of fixed abode too, so its hard to prosecute when you don't know where they are or who did it.

We had a local case of a traveller chap caught after a long spate of stealing from cars and he was given his day in court but after being found guilty of course he never turned up for sentencing and apparently vanished into the community never to be seen again.

 

[motacyclist]

So are travelers ever prosecuted for what amounts to open fly tipping? I doubt if it happens that much, if at all. As far as I am aware, the authorities often seem to be reluctant to take them on and sadly that often seems to include the police as well. Very often the mess builds up whilst they are on site then once they've trashed the area they move on. This pattern is well known so unlike the those anonymous anti social types who fly tip at the dead of night in country lanes and beauty spots, it shouldn't be that difficult to gather the necessary evidence for prosecution whilst they are on site and they shouldn't be that dificult to trace if they've moved on either. It's time this issue was dealt with using less tolerance and understanding and more enforcement and seizure of assets of those responsible.

It’s not just travellers. It’s just a certain type of people.

We had a fracking protest group set up at the motorway exit near our works for about 6 weeks. Tables, chairs, sofas, tents, signs (honk if you support us) etc on the verge. They helped themselves to our private works car park too, gave abuse when asked to move; and blocked the roads causing disruption to businesses. When they left, most of the stuff was still there, the place was a right mess, and the council had to clear it up.

Not once did they call in to explain what was going on. In contrast, the company who were carrying out the exploratory drilling came to our works and explained everything, left literature and contact details in case of any problems; and tidied up when they left.

I’m not giving my own views on fracking, but the protesters did nothing to help their cause.

 

[MattBW]

Yes I think you are right and I am sure the majority of travellers despair at the problem minority.

Interesting isn't it that they would claim to be so environmentally minded but effectively fly tipped whilst making their point... hyprocritical really.

 

[Amarillo]

Yes I think you are right and I am sure the majority of travellers despair at the problem minority.

Interesting isn't it that they would claim to be so environmentally minded but effectively fly tipped whilst making their point... hyprocritical really.

Climate Camp on Blackheath in 2009, did a superb job of clearing away their mess. The product of their composting toilet was donated to a commercial rose growing enterprise.
http://www.newsshopper.co.uk/news/4577371.BLACKHEATH__Climate_Camp_leaves_as_shops_count_profits/
It can be done with the support of the local community.

My parents' now ancient border terrier features in the final paragraph of this report.
https://amp.theguardian.com/environment/2009/aug/27/climate-camp-environment-activists-police



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[MattBW]

My favourite quote from that article:

"Zahoor Ashraf from Best-One Xpress said protestors had been buying huge amounts of rolling tobacco and houmous from his shop."

 

[Amarillo]

My favourite quote from that article:

"Zahoor Ashraf from Best-One Xpress said protestors had been buying huge amounts of rolling tobacco and houmous from his shop."

Vegan smokers. It feels like it should be an oxymoron.


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[Stoneybroke]

Be safer to walk the streets of Lebanon, than London...
Voted Cons last time, but Theresa Mays performance in government has been appalling.
She’s needs to go.

But there's no correlation to a cut of 20,000 police officers and as many support staff, PCSO's etc... Can't be, they keep saying it's unconnected.

That said, London is still a relatively safe city, better than Paris, for instance.

 

[Borris]

I think the issue may well be proving which individual(s) are responsible for the mess. It may well be possible to prove the mess is caused by a particular group, but I don't suppose it is possible to hold an entire group responsible for the actions of part of that group "joint enterprise". The crime of murder is, I think, the only exception.
https://www.theguardian.com/news/20...uk-how-do-11-people-go-to-jail-for-one-murder


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For many years during a previous life, I represented my organisation as a member of several local authority Crime and Disorder Groups so I understand all that only too well. However, for authorities to do virtually nothing and then just pass the cost of the clear up onto those in society that actually pay local taxes is not only grossly unfair but IMO also a dereliction of duty. They must be proactive in dealing with these issues.

My comments are not solely aimed at certain elements of the traveling community, but anyone else who thinks that fly tipping, littering, graffiti, vandalism etc are acceptable practices. They all degrade our environment and effect the quality of life of us all.

Yes, If the resourses were available more could be done but lack of staff and funding shouldn't be used as a coverall excuse for not taking action on this sort of issue. There are always measures, often simple, quick and inexpensive that can make a difference. Any antisocial activity can show our local communities and our country in a bad light especially to tourists from abroad. Unfortunately, as far as I can see peoples atitudes to issues such as grafitti and littering appear to be changing. For example, some misguided people now view graffiti as a form of street art. However, when some little swine has just spray painted his tag on your hitherto unblemished brick wall, landing you with many hours of work and a permenantly marked wall, then that's simply criminal damage, not art. When people think it acceptable to regularly throw the contents of their cars including the wrappings of their recent Happy Meals, newspapers, used nappies, beer cans, cigarette packets etc etc down our country lanes then who has taught them that this is OK? Just take a look at the verges along side our motorways to see just how bad this issue has become. On a recent trip to Italy via several other countries I saw very little evidence of this sort of thing anywhere, so why here? I'm sure they have similar problems but is it on the same scale?

Local Authorities must be proactive in dealing with these sort of issues despite the pressures currently placed on them otherwise what will our children and grandchildren inherit?

Getting back to Aires, we do have one of the few in Britain, located at Canterbury next to a park and ride. It's a sort of half hearted attempt at providing an aire. I never used it myself and I stand to be corrected but it appears to be purely a parking area for motorhomes with few facilities.

 

[GrannyJen]

Getting back to Aires, we do have one of the few in Britain, located at Canterbury next to a park and ride. It's a sort of half hearted attempt at providing an aire. I never used it myself and I stand to be corrected but it appears to be purely a parking area for motorhomes with few facilities.

24 hour toilets in the bus station, secure environment, waste disposal, parking fee pays for park and ride transport and when I was there every bit as good as half the Aires I have stayed on in the Mainland continent.

Equally the one I stayed on in Norfolk a couple of weeks back was superb, as are the car park spaces provided by Torridge. At the end of the day an Aire is nothing more than a car park in most instances and nothing more than that expected, if you like permissive as opposed to wild camping.

 

[Borris]

24 hour toilets in the bus station, secure environment, waste disposal, parking fee pays for park and ride transport and when I was there every bit as good as half the Aires I have stayed on in the Mainland continent.

Equally the one I stayed on in Norfolk a couple of weeks back was superb, as are the car park spaces provided by Torridge. At the end of the day an Aire is nothing more than a car park in most instances and nothing more than that expected, if you like permissive as opposed to wild camping.

Having been corrected I'll now sit down.
It does sound OK if it has all those facilities. Canterbury seems to have spent the last decade closing down public toilets so if these are open 24 hours a day it's a good step forward.

 

[GrannyJen]

Having been corrected I'll now sit down.
It does sound OK if it has all those facilities. Canterbury seems to have spent the last decade closing down public toilets so if these are open 24 hours a day it's a good step forward.

24 hour toilets at any Aire is a cut above the norm. The whole point of an Aire is to be limited in services, or you get what I had in Belgium posing as an Aire, an electric bollard, a water tap, 8 bays where at best six cali's or 4 great whites would fit with inches between them, in part of the leisure centre car park and a 12 euro fee, when for another 8 euro's I could have gone to a full facility campsite

Sacre Bleu! Le rip-off

 

[Amarillo]

On a recent trip to Italy via several other countries I saw very little evidence of this sort of thing anywhere, so why here? I'm sure they have similar problems but is it on the same scale?

Clearly your trip didn't take you as far south as Naples or Palermo. If it had, you would have seen fly tipping on an industrial scale.

But I accept most of what you say: local councils will clear up fly tipped mess before trying to catch the culprits. I had to ask a question in a full council meeting about fly tipping in Horn Park before the council pursued two householders for tipping their rubbish over their rear fence. All it took was for a council officer to knock on their doors and the rubbish, including the spoils from digging a swimming pool, were removed.


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[Borris]

Clearly your trip didn't take you as far south as Naples or Palermo. If it had, you would have seen fly tipping on an industrial scale.

But I accept most of what you say: local councils will clear up fly tipped mess before trying to catch the culprits. I had to ask a question in a full council meeting about fly tipping in Horn Park before the council pursued two householders for tipping their rubbish over their rear fence. All it took was for a council officer to knock on their doors and the rubbish, including the spoils from digging a swimming pool, were removed.


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You are right, we didn't go that far south but I did acknowledge that other countries must have similar problems. By coincidence our daughter and son in law are in Palermo at the moment on their European grand tour in Helga, their ancient Merc camper van. They have also mentioned how they were shocked by the amount of fly tipping there.

 

[Amarillo]

You are right, we didn't go that far south but I did acknowledge that other countries must have similar problems. By coincidence our daughter and son in law are in Palermo at the moment on their European grand tour in Helga, their ancient Merc camper van. They have also mentioned how they were shocked by the amount of fly tipping there.

Apparently, such is the Mafia grip on local government in Palermo, that they have complete control over refuse collection contracts. They collect the rubbish, dump it elsewhere, then are paid to clear up the rubbish they had just dumped.

In Naples the bin men went on a prolonged strike over having to dump rubbish in landfill sites where they had previously dumped toxic waste.
https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=naples waste crisis&tbm=isch


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[Velma's Dad]

One of the less palatable aspects (apart from the rubbish, which in Naples is almost part of the charm!) of travelling in Sicily and other parts of southern Italy is the knowledge that every time you use a shop, a hotel or a restaurant - and presumably campsites - you're very likely contributing to the payments of 'pizzo' (extorted protection money levied on businesses) into the pockets of the Mafia or Camorra.

That's kind of the point I was trying to make earlier - if we only 'care' about the highly visible crimes like rubbish tipping (and yes that does wind me up) we can be oblivious to crimes that cause much more harm.

End of sermon.

 

[Jonathan Duke]

For an excellent spectacle of rubbish/waste in abundance..... Over a vast landscape, I can recommend Morocco.

We did a cycle-tour across Morocco, and were truly shocked. Didn't see much litter in Norway, when cycle touring there..... So, I expect distribution of wealth plays a part in this.

 

[Velma's Dad]

For an excellent spectacle of rubbish/waste in abundance..... Over a vast landscape, I can recommend Morocco.

We did a cycle-tour across Morocco, and were truly shocked. Didn't see much litter in Norway, when cycle touring there..... So, I expect distribution of wealth plays a part in this.

Ten or fifteen years ago, if you walked through a marketplace in the poorer countries of sub-Saharan Africa you'd see big mounds of garbage left in the street at the end of each day's trading. But within a day or two most of that had disappeared, taken by kites or other scavengers and what was left would rot away quickly as it was mostly vegetable matter and some paper/cardboard. Any glass bottles got scavenged by kids to be used for things like filling with petrol to sell at the side of the road to moped riders. Today, the pile will build up and get blown all over town, simply because a lot of it is plastic.

In developing countries, this shift to plastics has happened really quickly and to some extent represents the early stages of wealth. But there hasn't been the time to change attitudes and behaviour, or the money to put in public solid waste disposal systems.

We don't have those excuses in UK/Europe though, or in Morocco really for that matter.

 

[Amarillo]

One of the less palatable aspects (apart from the rubbish, which in Naples is almost part of the charm!) of travelling in Sicily and other parts of southern Italy is the knowledge that every time you use a shop, a hotel or a restaurant - and presumably campsites - you're very likely contributing to the payments of 'pizzo' (extorted protection money levied on businesses) into the pockets of the Mafia or Camorra.

The Mafia provided a useful and welcome service after the annexation of Sicily and the collapse of feudal society.

Protection money can be equated to paying council tax which is then spent on policing and lavish dinners for councillors.


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[Velma's Dad]

The Mafia provided a useful and welcome service after the annexation of Sicily and the collapse of feudal society.

And Mussolini got the trains running on time.

 

[Borris]

I feel strongly that some Councils do actually indirectly encourage fly tipping. Councils often charge a lot for trade waste to be dumped and place many restrictions on what can and cannot be taken to domestic waste sites by whom and in what vehicle. In these cash strapped times the hard up, the lazy, the unscrupulous and the just plain criminal elements in society often don't bother with this inconvienience so dump their and others waste in country lanes and beauty spots. Therefore in my area at least there has been a marked increase in this activity in recent years. This dumping is almost always carried out on private property which then becomes the responsibility of the landowner to have removed. He/she then has to pay the Council to either dump this waste or to have it collected. Either way the council gets paid. Councils can't be expected to provide these services for free however in my experience, in my area, they don't seem to be that bothered that their policies may be contributing to the increase in fly tipping and the effects that it's having on our countryside.

 

[Velma's Dad]

I feel strongly that some Councils do actually indirectly encourage fly tipping. Councils often charge a lot for trade waste to be dumped and place many restrictions on what can and cannot be taken to domestic waste sites by whom and in what vehicle. In these cash strapped times the hard up, the lazy, the unscrupulous and the just plain criminal elements in society often don't bother with this inconvienience so dump their and others waste in country lanes and beauty spots. Therefore in my area at least there has been a marked increase in this activity in recent years. This dumping is almost always carried out on private property which then becomes the responsibility of the landowner to have removed. He/she then has to pay the Council to either dump this waste or to have it collected. Either way the council gets paid. Councils can't be expected to provide these services for free however in my experience, in my area, they don't seem to be that bothered that their policies may be contributing to the increase in fly tipping and the effects that it's having on our countryside.

Absolutely there are perverse incentives. But more generally... the biggest cost levied on someone taking waste to a landfill site is Landfill Tax - about £90/tonne so a big temptation to dump it in a layby instead. LT goes to central government, not to councils. In fact, the councils have themselves to pay LT on the municipal and business waste they they collect and send to landfill.

I'm not arguing against LT per se as it's been an important way to incentivise recycling. But if illegal dumping is an unintended consequence of that policy, then lets recognise that it's central government's policy not LAs'.

Sorry if that borders on a political point, it's not meant to be.

 

[Amarillo]

I'm not arguing against LT per se as it's been an important way to incentivise recycling. But if illegal dumping is an unintended consequence of that policy, then lets recognise that it's central government's policy not LAs'.

Solution:
Hire the Sicilian Mafia to clear our waste and turn a blind eye when they chop the balls off miscreant fly tippers who refuse to pay for landfill.



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[EddieEagle]

Solution:
when they chop the balls off miscreant fly tippers who refuse to pay


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Assuming all miscreants are male?
Come on, this is the 21 st century, we are all binary now!