Is there increasing resistance against EV’s?

[Gary&Heather]

Is there an increasing backlash against EV's ?
No, just the usual boomers fearing change.

I would have to agree on one thing about what you are saying, and that is about the backlash against EV's at the moment there is no backlash, but as stated in previous posts that will come if we are pushed in to a corner as such and as for the fearing change attitude, I think you are wrong we have considered purchasing an EV but it is just not viable so fearing change does not come into it.

 

[Wildcamper]

The backlash is not so much against EVs as against the one solution fits all attitude of Government and many environmentalists. EVs are great in some aspects. They are great to drive and having no tail pipe emissions make them ideal for use in high population density environments, those tail pipe emissions are still there but moved off shore. However, they are not ideal in all situations. I have considered purchasing an EV on several occasions but in my countryside location the business case just does not work. We have no charging infrastructure anywhere close and I am not allowed to install solar panels. In my opinion hydrogen, with all its issues, is a better "one solution fits all" solution. If hydrogen was available along with fuel cell technology I would be in there.

 

[Velma's Dad]

In my opinion hydrogen, with all its issues, is a better "one solution fits all" solution. If hydrogen was available along with fuel cell technology I would be in there.

The problem there, as you're probably aware, is that supplying sufficient quantities of green hydrogen (ie not just produced from fossil fuel feedstocks) for large scale car use would consume enormous amounts of sustainably-generated electricity. It would also of course require the creation of a whole network of hydrogen refuelling stations.

I don't doubt that hydrogen will be important for some use-cases, perhaps including long distance haulage, but unlikely for cars and most car manufacturers seem to have abandoned plans to introduce them.

 

[Trojax]

I have always considered EV to be an intermediate step to a final transport solution for us, the next step for cars is Bio fuel vehicles, and the hydrogen fuel cells for all others, it’s a bit like solar panels a heat source pumps are not the future for most houses they are also a intermediate step to something else

 

[Lambeth Cali]

The problem there, as you're probably aware, is that supplying sufficient quantities of green hydrogen (ie not just produced from fossil fuel feedstocks) for large scale car use would consume enormous amounts of sustainably-generated electricity. It would also of course require the creation of a whole network of hydrogen refuelling stations.

I don't doubt that hydrogen will be important for some use-cases, perhaps including long distance haulage, but unlikely for cars and most car manufacturers seem to have abandoned plans to introduce them.

He hasn’t really thought about it. It’s just the weekly drone. He doesn’t like being told what to do by people 20 years younger who have thought about it. There is a big boomer/right wing media eco problem and it’s going to be worse than Brexit and Covid combined.

 

[Wildcamper]

He hasn’t really thought about it. It’s just the weekly drone. He doesn’t like being told what to do by people 20 years younger who have thought about it. There is a big boomer/right wing media eco problem and it’s going to be worse than Brexit and Covid combined.

You are of course entitled to your opinion. I started working on alternative transport energy sources in 1990!

 

[Wildcamper]

The problem there, as you're probably aware, is that supplying sufficient quantities of green hydrogen (ie not just produced from fossil fuel feedstocks) for large scale car use would consume enormous amounts of sustainably-generated electricity. It would also of course require the creation of a whole network of hydrogen refuelling stations.

I don't doubt that hydrogen will be important for some use-cases, perhaps including long distance haulage, but unlikely for cars and most car manufacturers seem to have abandoned plans to introduce them.

You are absolutely correct. Using electricity to produce hydrogen is not very efficient, much better to use the electricity directly. But one does not have to use electricity to produce green hydrogen. Demonstrators using Titanium dioxide photocatalysts are out there as are alge ponds that give off hydrogen. Then there is the thermochemical splitting of water directly into oxygen and hydrogen. In this case one needs lots of heat, up to 2000C. Temperatures of this sort are well within the capability of fusion reactors and at long last progress is being made in controlling fusion physics - still some way to go however.

 

[RockinNRollin]

To me there's a fundamental elephant in the room (which may have been mentioned in earlier pages of this thread and I've missed); currently EVs are only viable on more than an isolated basis for two reasons; the first is the advent of tax-free and NI benefit salary sacrifice car lease schemes reducing the outlay by at least 30%, the second is the "fuel" source is currently also almost tax free with just 5% VAT.

Bit of fag-packet maths here;

- 10k miles per annum driving
- 40mpg average fuel consumption
- petrol at £1.40 a litre
- £400 gross lease cost per month on an electric vehicle
- Assume a fairly humdrum EV; a 39kWh Nissan Leaf with a typical range of 145 miles

1,135 litres of fuel would have been used to fuel a normal car
This costs the end user £1,589, but of that £862 is duty/VAT
Assume 34p kWH for electricity, to it'll need 2,690 kWH, £915 cost to the end user
Assume a lower-rate tax payer, that's a further £1,464 of tax and NI savings

So the government is effectively losing £2,326 of duty per annum.

This is something that if EVs become widespread, the government is going to have to recoup (somehow). Let's be a bit cynical and say the government accepts a small dent in finances to support the transition to greener transport, so let's say they only seek to recoup 75% of that cost. That's still £1,745 extra per year. In another thread we're talking about interest rates and mortgage repayments; those numbers are dwarfed by the tax benefits enjoyed by EV car owners at the moment.

My concern is, until such time we've got a near limitless and super cheap energy supply, we're in a bit of a bubble with massive tax benefits bringing EV car ownership close to that of a "normal" car; at some point, something has to give to make up the shortfall. It's possible of course it'll be a double edged sword and the govt will apply ever higher taxation to fossil fuels but slightly less high tax to EVs, making EVs still the cheaper, or rather least very expensive, option.

A crystal ball right now would be fascinating . . .

 

[Amarillo]

To me there's a fundamental elephant in the room (which may have been mentioned in earlier pages of this thread and I've missed); currently EVs are only viable on more than an isolated basis for two reasons; the first is the advent of tax-free and NI benefit salary sacrifice car lease schemes reducing the outlay by at least 30%, the second is the "fuel" source is currently also almost tax free with just 5% VAT.

Bit of fag-packet maths here;

- 10k miles per annum driving
- 40mpg average fuel consumption
- petrol at £1.40 a litre
- £400 gross lease cost per month on an electric vehicle
- Assume a fairly humdrum EV; a 39kWh Nissan Leaf with a typical range of 145 miles

1,135 litres of fuel would have been used to fuel a normal car
This costs the end user £1,589, but of that £862 is duty/VAT
Assume 34p kWH for electricity, to it'll need 2,690 kWH, £915 cost to the end user
Assume a lower-rate tax payer, that's a further £1,464 of tax and NI savings

So the government is effectively losing £2,326 of duty per annum.

This is something that if EVs become widespread, the government is going to have to recoup (somehow). Let's be a bit cynical and say the government accepts a small dent in finances to support the transition to greener transport, so let's say they only seek to recoup 75% of that cost. That's still £1,745 extra per year. In another thread we're talking about interest rates and mortgage repayments; those numbers are dwarfed by the tax benefits enjoyed by EV car owners at the moment.

My concern is, until such time we've got a near limitless and super cheap energy supply, we're in a bit of a bubble with massive tax benefits bringing EV car ownership close to that of a "normal" car; at some point, something has to give to make up the shortfall. It's possible of course it'll be a double edged sword and the govt will apply ever higher taxation to fossil fuels but slightly less high tax to EVs, making EVs still the cheaper, or rather least very expensive, option.

A crystal ball right now would be fascinating . . .

Road pricing.

If you try to tax electricity too highly the rich will evade by installing banks of solar panels and/or rooftop turbines.

It is already happening in some of our cities. London’s ULEZ won’t stop once pre Euro6 vehicles have more or less been eliminated.

 

[RockinNRollin]

Road pricing.

If you try to tax electricity too highly the rich will evade by installing banks of solar panels and/or rooftop turbines.

It is already happening in some of our cities. London’s ULEZ won’t stop once pre Euro6 vehicles have more or less been eliminated.

Road pricing.

If you try to tax electricity too highly the rich will evade by installing banks of solar panels and/or rooftop turbines.

It is already happening in some of our cities. London’s ULEZ won’t stop once pre Euro6 vehicles have more or less been eliminated.

I suppose it depends really on how; a flat unit rate would be argued to disproportionately favour the rich if their massive SUVs powered by electricity/hydrogen or fossil fuels are charged the same unit rate as a Zoe. If you then try and normalise it, it’s how that’s done. Emissions were an easy one as all vehicles were consuming, but that’s no longer a workable benchmark with such diversity of energy sources. Tricky.

 

[flying banana]

Suits this thread perfectly ,an autocar article

 

[subthree]

Suits this thread perfectly ,an autocar article

View attachment 110567

 

[flying banana]

View attachment 110568View attachment 110569

That's better than my screen shot efforts ha

 

[subthree]

In contrast to VW....

 

[Kayleigh]

In contrast to VW....

Is the difference that Tesla has a decent motorway charging network?

 

[Wannabecamperman]

I think that if you do a shortish daily commute, an EV or PHEV is a great idea. Even more so if you can get a home charger for sub 40p per kWh of charge. This will save money over ICE in the long run plus the lower tax and BiK taxes for commercial use make it attractive option. The 8 year battery guarantee is much, much longer than almost any new ICE car guarantee too.

I think the fact that 4 year old E-Golfs are now available at under £13k is an example of how the EV trend has cooled of late, especially with diesel prices down to around £1.40 per litre now. So it's a balance and dependent entirely on personal circumstances.

 

[soulstyledevon]

Is the difference that Tesla has a decent motorway charging network?

Yes, and the price drop.
A model Y which is comparable to the ID Buzz is between £15k-£20k cheaper.

I was talking to one of the dads at my lads school on Friday. His 12 month Taycan just cost him £28k in depreciation…
Chopped in for a Cayenne GTS.

 

[Calimili]

Could you guys in the UK park EVs in car parks under buildings whether at ground level or underground ?Just been at a presentation of a new 3 floors residential building with underground carpark. The 6 EV charging parking spots have been all put outside , in front of the building. The architect explained this is now regulation, at least over here, a requirement coming from the Fire Fighter Department, as they would have a hard time, to put it mildly, to extinguish an EV on fire, and it could compromise the structure of the building. So EVs must stay outside..

 

[Kayleigh]

Could you guys in the UK park EVs in car parks under buildings whether at ground level or underground ?Just been at a presentation of a new 3 floors residential building with underground carpark. The 6 EV charging parking spots have been all put outside , in front of the building. The architect explained this is now regulation, at least over here, a requirement coming from the Fire Fighter Department, as they would have a hard time, to put it mildly, to extinguish an EV on fire, and it could compromise the structure of the building. So EVs must stay outside..

Hmmm.. but an underground car park with thousands of litres of petrol is fine..
Can EVs spontaneously combust when charged?
If we fast forward 10 years and the majority are driving EVs, those six chargers are going to be very busy

 

[Wildcamper]

Hmmm.. but an underground car park with thousands of litres of petrol is fine..
Can EVs spontaneously combust when charged?

Yes they can under some circumstances, such as poor maintenance, cheap and cheerful manufacture. Recall the battery fires of e-scooters - cheap and cheerful manufacture. Then there were the Li battery fires in the Boeing 787 and that would not be cheap and cheerful manufacture. A battery fire is much hotter than a petrol/diesel fire and more difficult to extinguish.

 

[Kayleigh]

Yes they can under some circumstances, such as poor maintenance, cheap and cheerful manufacture. Recall the battery fires of e-scooters - cheap and cheerful manufacture. Then there were the Li battery fires in the Boeing 787 and that would not be cheap and cheerful manufacture. A battery fire is much hotter than a petrol/diesel fire and more difficult to extinguish.

Wow, I didn’t know that!

 

[Calimili]

Hmmm.. but an underground car park with thousands of litres of petrol is fine..
Can EVs spontaneously combust when charged?
If we fast forward 10 years and the majority are driving EVs, those six chargers are going to be very busy

And plenty of room in the carpark for old gusguzzler..

 

[flying banana]

Apparently multistorey car parks arent strong enough to hold all evs rather than real cars as evs are alot heavier.imagine a charging point in every car parking space? That's alot of power needed. The cable would need to be a foot thick

 

[soulstyledevon]

Could you guys in the UK park EVs in car parks under buildings whether at ground level or underground ?Just been at a presentation of a new 3 floors residential building with underground carpark. The 6 EV charging parking spots have been all put outside , in front of the building. The architect explained this is now regulation, at least over here, a requirement coming from the Fire Fighter Department, as they would have a hard time, to put it mildly, to extinguish an EV on fire, and it could compromise the structure of the building. So EVs must stay outside..

Industry bodies are looking at this now.
London Fire Brigade have between 6-8 escooter/bike fires per month and it’s really becoming a problem.
Very difficult to ban them from inner city tower blocks. But it’s raising a lot of issues within the industry and for housing associations.

 

[Christine Kirk]

had a test drive / loan EV for a day in Feb this year it was OK to drive but the heater took ages to effectively heat the car and seemed to drain the battery quickly. We did about 80 miles in the day and the range would have been far less than the quoted 240miles!