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Long term outlook for old vans...

bxl_lad

bxl_lad

Its not easy being green...
Messages
670
Location
Brussels, Belgium
Vehicle
T4 PopTop
Hi,
I'm going to throw this one up for discussion... LEZ (Low emission zones) are springing up all over Europe, although it seems each country has its own definitions of these, but generally older engines are being excluded from major cities. Of course we can all appreciate why this will become the case, but we also have a vested interest in keeping our vans on the road...

Here in Belgium its possible to apply for exemption for certain vehicle types and motorhome is one of those (the vehicles papers have to show it is defined as such - so a self-build conversion will likely not be recognised...). Time will tell if the exemption process will be easy to achieve (here you have to apply for it and it will be reviewed every 3 years - mine, a 2001, will be exempt from Brussels from 2019 if I don't get an exemption). In Germany you can obtain a 'green' badge for a vehicle with a DPF (mine has, so we're good to go, for now, but in Belgium DPF or not it doesn't matter, it goes simply on the age and Euro class). I'm not sure of the rules for London for comparison... Other countries?

So... there are ways to work around some of these exclusions, but in the bigger picture, what will the LEZ effect be on the worth of our vehicles? For sure at some point the T4 will acquire 'old-timer' status (and then i think there are other rules for the LEZ's), but until then the very fact we're running clunky old diesels (and petrol) is bound to have an effect on where we can/can't go, value and marketability...

Whereas in the past classic cars/old-timers have had a rising value over time, do we expect this trend to continue given the 'demise' (ultimately) and vilification of the internal combustion engine...?

Long term, is there a future for owning vans like ours or will we be forced off the road and end up with worthless lumps that will only have scrap value?? :(

Discuss...
 
LEZs May well affect resale over time because they will potentially limit the use of our vehicles. However, the majority of us seem to use the van to “get away from it all” and while many owners have this intent, the vehicles will be valued. The ICE needs to die, but it will be a long, drawn out affair I think.

Easy for me to say with a T6 but I’m just going to get out there and enjoy my Cali.


https://caliventures364847572.wordpress.com/
 
Not too gloomy today then :confused:

As far as I’m concerned, traveling into a city is probably one of the last things I will do in my van.
When it comes to resale I couldn’t give a flying f*** what it’s worth. To me, now, it’s worth it’s weight in gold.

I appreciate if you live in an urban area then it could be an issue.

If this is all about diesel then ultimately all vans are in trouble.

Head back in the sand. I spend my days working on road vehicles that will be lucky to achieve double figures in fuel consumption, and that’s petrol.

Keep burning those hydro carbons. :cheers
 
Indeed, for the most part the places we would visit with the vans will not become LEZ's for the long term, but of course if you live within an LEZ (as vast amounts of people do, or will eventually) then simply owning one will either become difficult or expensive...

And yes, for sure it will be a while before a T6 is affected by any of this, but it will make some question investing their hard earned cash even in those. Until now the appeal/nostalgia/'love' of these vans has generally kept resale values high, you can find good original Westfalia T4's easily going for 20-30k € and I appreciate that for the most part folks aren't buying these vans as an investment but indeed to be used and enjoyed...

But then, going back to the thread title, will we be 'allowed' to use/enjoy these vehicles in the long term, or will we be ultimately legislated off the road? Will they be allowed to reach 'old-timer' age (and hopefully 'redemption') or will they hit a legal brick wall before then?

For my part, I've invested for the long term, have no plans to sell and hope to be pitching up on campsites in this van for many, many years to come - I just wonder if that will be possible?

...The reason for my 'gloom': We live about 1km just inside the LEZ perimeter. Next year we will have to apply for exemption just so we can bring the van home to park it - of course we rarely use it as a run-about within the zone, so for the most part it sits happily being the least polluting diesel vehicle in town - but depending on how the exemption process works, some pen pusher could be the fate dealer of our future van camping lifestyle... I think that will become an issue for many in the future, be they T4 Westfalia owners or even new T6 California's, but also (and maybe more so), the folks who've spent 1000's converting a van or restoring an old classic...
 
You make some good points. If my home came into a LEZ it would give me pause for thought...
There are so many commercials on the road, I can’t imagine this will be a quick process. An electric Cali with anything like the capability of the current models is some way off I think, so I for one will join slidepod and keep enjoying the countryside


https://caliventures364847572.wordpress.com/
 
Like others above I try and steer well clear of big cities - if you do then any preferable camp sites are normally on the outskirts and you just use public transport.

But until there is ever a total ban on using internal combustion engines on the general roads - who knows when that may be but probably not in our driving lifetimes (that's for the fellow members in the 50+ bracket - the 30's and under on here can probably ignore that ;) ).

Lez etc has no effect really on classic cars, Splits, Bays etc - as for the T5/6 Calis - as we all know money there is as safe as it can be in any current vehicles - Cali residuals are really unaffected by anything it seems and most T4's will be killed by rust before anything else.

As for the real future - purely electric it ain't, certainly not with current (sorry) 'carry your own battery supply with you' tech - current offerings are merely a stopgap to something else that solves the pathetic range issue.
 
Some of the online T4 forums are getting busier with the LEZ / diesel to petrol conversion discussions. Our neighbours son has a diesel T4 Westy and occasionally commutes into the London LEZ. He's been showing a lot of interest in our 2.5 petrol on his last few visits up to see his folks. Seems to have got some people genuinely spooked anyway.
 
Some of the online T4 forums are getting busier with the LEZ / diesel to petrol conversion discussions. Our neighbours son has [...] been showing a lot of interest in our 2.5 petrol on his last few visits up to see his folks.
On holidays we steer far away from larger cities and LEZ's, that's not our worry. But our diesel Cali is our only vehicle, and we live just 200 m outside our city's LEZ... Today with Euro4 we are still allowed in, but in the future that may well change or the LEZ may expand to include our home. Then we are in trouble.

Liking our off-road adventures, we may have to change to this:

uaz_bukhanka_mods_4.jpg




The russian Bukhanka is now available in NL as a campervan, new at € 25,000. A classic 4x4 van, with high and low gear (2H, 4H and 4L), diff lock, etc... And a 2.7 litre 135 bhp petrol engine.. :thumb

Bubhanka.jpg


UAZ-452-2206-Bukhanka-Offroad-Camper-2.jpg
 
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As stated previously, come the day I’ll be sourcing a nice RS3 drive train. :Stig
5 pots, transverse mount. Practically plug-n-play :pinkbanana
 
The russian Bukhanka is now available in NL as a campervan, new at € 25,000. A classic 4x4 van, with high and low gear (2H, 4H and 4L), diff lock, etc... And a 2.7 litre 135 bhp petrol engine.
Bart, that is immense - love it! And 25k euros - a steal... I want one. It will be an instant classic.

Do they do RHD?

And what's the warranty like - I'm assuming it's a bit like the old Ladas etc. if it doesn't end up in a heap of rust on the drive the warranty will be fine...

Mind there might be one issue, is there a Beach version?

Mods, can you create a new section just for the Bukhana?
 
Loving that 'Buke'... and who cares if it rusts from the bottom up, rather than roof down on a Cali?
 
Bart, I think we need a new thread on this - it will run and run.

Maybe not like the van but.... :)
 
You could always start looking for a decent donor petrol vehicle ?
This one is a bit rich but it’s the V6 so you get all the necessary parts.

https://suchen.mobile.de/fahrzeuge/...searchId=fe98d796-677a-52cf-8fd3-4dab1c350528

Aha, but those pesky Belgians have already thought of scuppering that idea:

"Your vehicle's Euro standard cannot be altered by any change to its motorisation."
(taken from: https://www.lez.brussels/en/content/exemptions)

So even if I retrofitted Tesla battery and motors this it would seem still not give access to the LEZ...:talktothehand
 
Aha, but those pesky Belgians have already thought of scuppering that idea:

"Your vehicle's Euro standard cannot be altered by any change to its motorisation."
(taken from: https://www.lez.brussels/en/content/exemptions)

So even if I retrofitted Tesla battery and motors this it would seem still not give access to the LEZ...:talktothehand
That seems ridiculous!!
 
False number plates it is then :cheers
 
I had the exact same sense of despair with my T25, but the way things are progressing I dont think it will remain an issue for ever. I fully believe that electric tech will improve massively and by the time these older vehicles are fully banned there will be alternatives and ways to convert them.

Don't get me wrong I know not everyone will want to do that but I don't think they will become heaps of scrap unless we let them. :)
 
Blimey Matt! I wish I shared your faith there.

I can see our vans going the Mad Max route. Lawless and outcasts.
 
I've already seen a T25 and split screens converted to electric, now don't get me wrong at the moment its expensive and the range is probably terrible at around 150 miles but I have faith it will improve by the time 2040 comes around (although looking at the news today that could become 2032).
 
As stated previously, come the day I’ll be sourcing a nice RS3 drive train. :Stig
5 pots, transverse mount. Practically plug-n-play :pinkbanana
Is that a realistic swap? What kind if power one one of them units have? Would need a separate fuel tank for the night heater.
 
Is that a realistic swap? What kind if power one one of them units have? Would need a separate fuel tank for the night heater.
Well if the VR6 lump fits then the RS will.
400bhp. :Stig
 
The LEZ zones really don't bother me, If I wanted too, then I could fit a DPF and qualify for Euro 4. However as Hamburg demonstrated recently, the new thinking is to ban anything under Euro 6, so effectively all T4's and T5's. The ban in Hamburg only effect's a couple of streets and is only a stones throw from the port, where all manner of diesel powered ships are belching fumes into the sky with impunity, you really couldn't make this stuff up. So going to the great expense of fitting a DPF will be for nought.

Along with others, I've no need or desire to take my van into cities, so I doubt it will have too much impact. It just depends if city bans extend out to the motorways surrounding them, then life could get a little trickier.

My real concern is if governments decided that all old Diesels need removing from the roads and by far the easiest and effective method is to make the emissions tests on MOT's more stringent. (Bear in mind I live in Germany, where they do have emissions test with the Diesels) I could be really worried and paranoid about this, but have decided instead to take the gamble and spend a chunk of money on getting my rust sorted this winter. I'm confident of getting at least another 10 years of joy and pleasure out of it and would love more. I just hope that the government allows me that.
 
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