Norway to 'completely ban petrol powered cars by 2025'

[Lightning]

Correct. So what we will achieve? we'll spend more to move the production of CO2 and the pollution somewhere else, but we'll feel "green" driving our electric car. Fair?

Myth No. 2 according to the national grid:

2. All you’re doing is moving harmful emissions from car tailpipes to power stations
From the start of the Industrial Revolution up until 2017, the ‘dirtiest’ thing we did as a country was make electricity. However, the way we generate power has evolved and our energy system is getting cleaner all the time. Last year, 2019, was a record breaking year and more electricity was generated by clean sources than fossil fuels. With the growth in onshore and offshore wind farms and the closure of a number of coal plants, transport is in fact now the most polluting thing we do as a nation.

The way we generate power has evolved and our energy system is getting cleaner all the time.

 

[Bellcrew]

You are correct. The "where is the electricity coming from" question is only the beginning. Add in the extensive environmental and human damage caused by extracting cobalt and neodymium and then start thinking about battery recycling etc etc.

Of course you are absolutely correct, they also want to ban gas heating, the favoured replacement is the very expensive earth source heat pump that will again fit happily in large middle class gardens, the plebs will have to rely on night storage lumps and immersion heaters.
Supplying all this power on a calm midwinter night will require storage on a scale that defies belief, poor people had better get used to being cold.
You will never hear a chartered supply engineer on a discussion programme explaining in great detail the absurdity of these delusions, just too challenging for the totally innumerate pillock's who populate government and the MSM.

 

[Lightning]

Of course you are absolutely correct, they also want to ban gas heating, the favoured replacement is the very expensive earth source heat pump that will again fit happily in large middle class gardens, the plebs will have to rely on night storage lumps and immersion heaters.
Supplying all this power on a calm midwinter night will require storage on a scale that defies belief, poor people had better get used to being cold.
You will never hear a chartered supply engineer on a discussion programme explaining in great detail the absurdity of these delusions, just too challenging for the totally innumerate pillock's who populate government and the MSM.

Plebs in England can now apply for large grants for Air source heat pumps, amongst other things.

Air Source Heat Pumps (Boiler Upgrade Scheme)

Air source heat pumps are a form of renewable energy technology which take the warmth from the air outside and use it to heat the home

www.government-grants.co.uk

 

[flying banana]

Plebs in England can now apply for large grants for Air source heat pumps, amongst other things.

Air Source Heat Pumps (Boiler Upgrade Scheme)

Air source heat pumps are a form of renewable energy technology which take the warmth from the air outside and use it to heat the home

www.government-grants.co.uk

As the guy said. Plebs dont always have gardens . Flats definitely dont have gardens.
wheres the heat pump going to go ?

 

[flying banana]

Of course you are absolutely correct, they also want to ban gas heating, the favoured replacement is the very expensive earth source heat pump that will again fit happily in large middle class gardens, the plebs will have to rely on night storage lumps and immersion heaters.
Supplying all this power on a calm midwinter night will require storage on a scale that defies belief, poor people had better get used to being cold.
You will never hear a chartered supply engineer on a discussion programme explaining in great detail the absurdity of these delusions, just too challenging for the totally innumerate pillock's who populate government and the MSM.

Well said sir

 

[Wildcamper]

Myth No. 2 according to the national grid:

2. All you’re doing is moving harmful emissions from car tailpipes to power stations
From the start of the Industrial Revolution up until 2017, the ‘dirtiest’ thing we did as a country was make electricity. However, the way we generate power has evolved and our energy system is getting cleaner all the time. Last year, 2019, was a record breaking year and more electricity was generated by clean sources than fossil fuels. With the growth in onshore and offshore wind farms and the closure of a number of coal plants, transport is in fact now the most polluting thing we do as a nation.

I think you forget that green electricity is anything but green. The environmental and human damage (mostly children and women) in mining cobalt (required for batteries) in Angola and the Congo is enormous. Add to this the vast wastelands in central China where most of the neodymium (required for efficient electric motors) comes from is to us in w Europe unimaginable. If only the UK were to go 100% electric the mining operations for neodymium would have to increase by a factor of 10, not sure about cobalt but I expect a similar amount. The neodymium extraction process results in vast acid lakes where nothing will grow or live for a very very long time - if ever! None of this is mentioned by the green movement.

 

[Lightning]

As the guy said. Plebs dont always have gardens . Flats definitely dont wheres the heat pump going to go? If they can afford it even with a grant you still pay

You only need an external wall.

Air source heat pumps

Air source heat pumps extract heat from the air to heat your home and hot water. They can extract heat from air temperatures as low as -15°C.

energysavingtrust.org.uk

 

[Wildcamper]

one thing you may be missing is that your 9.5kWh energy in a litre of petrol /diesel is that internal combustion engines typically are about 20% efficient - the rest wasted as heat - so the amount of pure electric power needed to replace them in transport is a significant amount less than the maths predicts

Not really. On the electricity side you need to take into account conversion losses, distribution losses and charging losses. Charging losses will increase as chargers get more powerful, as they must do to reduce charging times. A fast charge is inefficient as a lot of heat is produced.

 

[Lightning]

I think you forget that green electricity is anything but green. The environmental and human damage (mostly children and women) in mining cobalt (required for batteries) in Angola and the Congo is enormous. Add to this the vast wastelands in central China where most of the neodymium (required for efficient electric motors) comes from is to us in w Europe unimaginable. If only the UK were to go 100% electric the mining operations for neodymium would have to increase by a factor of 10, not sure about cobalt but I expect a similar amount. The neodymium extraction process results in vast acid lakes where nothing will grow or live for a very very long time - if ever! None of this is mentioned by the green movement.

Greenpeace are part of the green movement and seem to have looked into it.

‘While it’s impossible to burn oil ethically and sustainably, it is possible to produce electric vehicles in ways that minimise impact. But doing this will take time – which is why companies and governments need to make it a priority.’

Are electric cars greener than petrol cars? - Greenpeace UK

An electric car has about half the climate impact of a petrol or diesel car. But going electric is just the start - we need to think bigger.

www.greenpeace.org.uk

 

[Saesneg Shaun]

I think you forget that green electricity is anything but green. The environmental and human damage (mostly children and women) in mining cobalt (required for batteries) in Angola and the Congo is enormous. Add to this the vast wastelands in central China where most of the neodymium (required for efficient electric motors) comes from is to us in w Europe unimaginable. If only the UK were to go 100% electric the mining operations for neodymium would have to increase by a factor of 10, not sure about cobalt but I expect a similar amount. The neodymium extraction process results in vast acid lakes where nothing will grow or live for a very very long time - if ever! None of this is mentioned by the green movement.

Plus the eviromental effects of lithium mining for batteries.

 

[GrumpyGranddad]

You only need an external wall.

Air source heat pumps

Air source heat pumps extract heat from the air to heat your home and hot water. They can extract heat from air temperatures as low as -15°C.

energysavingtrust.org.uk

Oh please!!!
If you rent a flat in a tower block and earn minimum wage, do you really think your priority is an air source heat pump.
Get real.

 

[Lightning]

Oh please!!!
If you rent a flat in a tower block and earn minimum wage, do you really think your priority is an air source heat pump.
Get real.

No. But if you are on a means tested benefit you can get one for free.

 

[Lightning]

Plus the eviromental effects of lithium mining for batteries.

This is what Greenpeace have to say:

Mining
There are also huge problems with some of the materials that make up today’s electric vehicle batteries. As production ramps up, these urgently need to be fixed. Cobalt production is linked to child labour in the Democratic Republic of the Congo. Some Indigenous communities are resisting lithium mining on their land in South America.
We could pit these outrages against the horrors of fossil fuel extraction, but it doesn’t make them any less ugly. That’s why the transition away from fossil fuels can’t just be about swapping one set of machines for another. We need to avoid using more than we need, and clean up the industries that supply it to us.

 

[Lightning]

No. But if you are on a means tested benefit you can get one for free.

Green Homes Grant Was a 'Slam Dunk Fail', Report Says

The Green Homes Grant officially ended on 31 March, and underperformed badly according to a new report

www.homebuilding.co.uk

 

[clarinetbcn]

As the guy said. Plebs dont always have gardens . Flats definitely dont have gardens.
wheres the heat pump going to go ?

An air source heat pump is basically an air conditioning compressor with added controls to allow it to be run backward during winter, extracting heat from (even very cold) outside air and pumping it into the interior. My flat's system provides all heating and air conditioning, and is powered by solar panels. Excess electricity (for example when I was hiking in Austria for 5 weeks this summer) is fed into the grid and compensated monthly, additional electricity when needed is supplied by my power company, SomEnergia, which uses exclusively renewable sources. My flat was built in 1880, and I can only imagine what its first occupants would think if they saw it now.

The University of California at Davis built a net zero house using earth source heat pumps in collaboration with Honda several years ago, using currently available technology. The house supplies all its power needs plus charges its Honda EV. It was used as a reference for current California legislation, which requires all new housing to be net zero.

It's not hard to do using currently available technology, with a shout out to conservation through passive design and proper insulation. Why isn't it happening elsewhere? I think politics is the only answer. The conservative government in Spain made solar power illegal. Two years ago they were tossed out for corruption and the new government took away the "Tax on the Sun." My system has been up and running in my flat in the Old City of Barcelona since Feb. '19.

 

[GrumpyGranddad]

This is what Greenpeace have to say:

Mining
There are also huge problems with some of the materials that make up today’s electric vehicle batteries. As production ramps up, these urgently need to be fixed. Cobalt production is linked to child labour in the Democratic Republic of the Congo. Some Indigenous communities are resisting lithium mining on their land in South America.
We could pit these outrages against the horrors of fossil fuel extraction, but it doesn’t make them any less ugly. That’s why the transition away from fossil fuels can’t just be about swapping one set of machines for another. We need to avoid using more than we need, and clean up the industries that supply it to us.

Can’t argue with that, so going way back in this thread, you should agree that Norway needs to drastically cut its sales of oil by 2025, not just ban new ICE vehicles.

 

[Lightning]

Can’t argue with that, so going way back in this thread, you should agree that Norway needs to drastically cut its sales of oil by 2025, not just ban new ICE vehicles.

I think we should stop buying it, then they wouldn't be able to sell it to us.

 

[Saesneg Shaun]

An air source heat pump is basically an air conditioning compressor with added controls to allow it to be run backward during winter, extracting heat from (even very cold) outside air and pumping it into the interior. My flat's system provides all heating and air conditioning, and is powered by solar panels. Excess is fed into the grid and compensated monthly, additional electricity when needed is supplied by my power company, SomEnergia, which uses exclusively renewable sources.

The University of California at Davis built a net zero house using earth source heat pumps in collaboration with Honda several years ago, using currently available technology. The house supplies all its power needs plus charges its Honda EV. It was used as a reference for current California legislation, which requires all new housing to be net zero.

It's not hard to do using currently available technology, with a shout out to conservation through passive design and proper insulation. Why isn't it happening elsewhere? I think politics is the only answer. The conservative government in Spain made solar power illegal. Two years ago they were tossed out for corruption and the new government took away the "Tax on the Sun." My system has been up and running in my flat in the Old City of Barcelona since Feb. '19.

Not sure about spain but in the uk exclusively renewable sources don't exist , its an offset scheme, plant a tree and ignore the fact your power comes from the same ole gas fired power station as everybody else.
Solar doesn't really work on a large scale here either, too many clouds!

 

[GrumpyGranddad]

An air source heat pump is basically an air conditioning compressor with added controls to allow it to be run backward during winter, extracting heat from (even very cold) outside air and pumping it into the interior. My flat's system provides all heating and air conditioning, and is powered by solar panels. Excess electricity (for example when I was hiking in Austria for 5 weeks this summer) is fed into the grid and compensated monthly, additional electricity when needed is supplied by my power company, SomEnergia, which uses exclusively renewable sources.

The University of California at Davis built a net zero house using earth source heat pumps in collaboration with Honda several years ago, using currently available technology. The house supplies all its power needs plus charges its Honda EV. It was used as a reference for current California legislation, which requires all new housing to be net zero.

It's not hard to do using currently available technology, with a shout out to conservation through passive design and proper insulation. Why isn't it happening elsewhere? I think politics is the only answer. The conservative government in Spain made solar power illegal. Two years ago they were tossed out for corruption and the new government took away the "Tax on the Sun." My system has been up and running in my flat in the Old City of Barcelona since Feb. '19.

It’s complex and there is not a one size fits all solution. For example, I live in a house that was built in 1750. It is a listed building and I am therefore prohibited from installing double glazing, solar panels, etc, etc. At the same time if I ever sell I am required to provide an ‘energy report’ to a prospective buyer! So the one hand the government wants me to be more energy efficient and on the other stops me doing it.

 

[GrumpyGranddad]

I think we should stop buying it, then they wouldn't be able to sell it to us.

But then I won’t be able to drive my forthcoming Cali !! Too great a sacrifice.

 

[Lightning]

It’s complex and there is not a one size fits all solution. For example, I live in a house that was built in 1750. It is a listed building and I am therefore prohibited from installing double glazing, solar panels, etc, etc. At the same time if I ever sell I am required to provide an ‘energy report’ to a prospective buyer! So the one hand the government wants me to be more energy efficient and on the other stops me doing it.

You may be exempt from providing an EPC for a listed building. Although it can be more simple just to get one done. A flat I let out is listed with the same issues.

 

[Lightning]

But then I won’t be able to drive my forthcoming Cali !! Too great a sacrifice.

Plant some tomato’s instead then.

 

[GrumpyGranddad]

Plant some tomato’s instead then.

I have 3 allotments and have bought almost no vegetables at all this year. Zero food miles. Too many tomatoes though, not to mention winter squash

 

[clarinetbcn]

Not sure about spain but in the uk exclusively renewable sources don't exist , its an offset scheme, plant a tree and ignore the fact your power comes from the same ole gas fired power station as everybody else.
Solar doesn't really work on a large scale here either, too many clouds!

No, my power company generates exclusively with wind and solar, no offsets. Wind is currently the largest source for electric power in Spain.

 

[clarinetbcn]