Ocean Lifepo4 Victron 100ah X 2

[Shadrack]

In the diagram I can find (which is 2009 -) it looks like the black wire. See attached.View attachment 108550

Thanks, I agree with that, I found a diagram but could not be sure as I normally associate black with ground.
Where the other assumptions of mine correct, connection etc?

Thank you.

 

[California_Ocean]

My T6.1 has the following fitted ....


The vehicle side is from the VW wiring diagrams.

I wanted to fit lithium but realised that the VW Charger has a direct connection to the fuse block on the under-seat leisure battery. The VW charger has an AGM charging profile .... when on an electrical hook-up it will be using the wrong voltage to charge Lithium unless you move it to feed your DC-DC Charger. Check the VW wiring diagrams for your model year.

 

[yossarian]

Thanks, I agree with that, I found a diagram but could not be sure as I normally associate black with ground.
Where the other assumptions of mine correct, connection etc?

Thank you.

Yes, as far as I can see 100%. Note I had the two pin terminal inverted: the manual says:

Remote on-off A remote on/off switch or relay contact can be connected to a two-pole connector. Alternatively, the H terminal (right) of the two-pole connector can be switched to battery plus, or the L terminal (left) of the two pole connector can be switched to battery minus (or the chassis of a vehicle, for example).

@California_Ocean raises a good point wrt electrical hookup.

 

[yossarian]

The ehu appears to be fused at 30A so it *might* be a little more complicated that just switching the ehu output to the engine battery.

On the other hand, since it's available for both the one and two battery vehicles (I think?) it probably is current limiting at around 20A.

I'd imagine the Orion doesn't mind being behind a current limited source but it might be worth a test to see that the Orion doesn't cycle on and off or suck the starter battery dry initially while on ehu. Victron support is rated quite highly so it might be worth running this past them.

A TR 12-12 20 might also be a better option. Or perhaps there is some way to current limit the tr 12-12 30?

 

[Shadrack]

Yes, as far as I can see 100%. Note I had the two pin terminal inverted: the manual says:

Remote on-off A remote on/off switch or relay contact can be connected to a two-pole connector. Alternatively, the H terminal (right) of the two-pole connector can be switched to battery plus, or the L terminal (left) of the two pole connector can be switched to battery minus (or the chassis of a vehicle, for example).

@California_Ocean raises a good point wrt electrical hookup.

Think it could be time for a beer or two. Just to re-establish my left from my right.

thank you Yossarian for update after going back to review of manual I started to fry what’s little left of my brains.
I eventually found in the manual which I think does agree with your statement.

I am definitely connecting the control to the ‘L’ terminal ?

Does the link also stay between ‘L’ & ‘H’ ?

 

[yossarian]

Think it could be time for a beer or two. Just to re-establish my left from my right.

thank you Yossarian for update after going back to review of manual I started to fry what’s little left of my brains.
I eventually found in the manual which I think does agree with your statement.

I am definitely connecting the control to the ‘L’ terminal ?

Does the link also stay between ‘L’ & ‘H’ ?View attachment 108567

View attachment 108568

I think the simplest solution is option b but using the split charge relay to drive the Orion 'on'. So in simple terms connect the black wire to the H pin, leave the L pin disconnected.

Then you should be able to disable engine shutdown detection and the Orion should only run when the old split charge relay would have been engaged. We know that this does not kill the starter battery and probably plays nicely with the start stop system. It's certainly a reasonable starting point I think -- you can modify the logic from there.

 

[Shadrack]

I think the simplest solution is option b but using the split charge relay to drive the Orion 'on'. So in simple terms connect the black wire to the H pin, leave the L pin disconnected.

Then you should be able to disable engine shutdown detection and the Orion should only run when the old split charge relay would have been engaged. We know that this does not kill the starter battery and probably plays nicely with the start stop system. It's certainly a reasonable starting point I think -- you can modify the logic from there.

Thank you yet again Yossarian, that is a brilliant reply to what is me, overthinking things.

I have even been over on the Victron community and it seems to be a very confusing area to most there.

As I have it now with the link left in alone is an issue we’re the smart alternator stops or reduces voltage when suppling charge to the batteries when the starter battery is charged full, the alternator reduces this voltage lower than that set in the Victron shutdown parameter, thus shutting itself down and therefore no longer charges the leisure’s no matter what their state of charge is.
This was initially hidden from me as my roof solar was also banging the volts at the leisure’s.

so your initial post to me did raise this issue. So big thanks, I’m sure I’m not far from a solution.
I will have a play with that trigger wire.

On the very interesting and important point raised by California_Ocean re the hookup. For now I am still with the AGMs.
when I go LifePo4 it will need addressing somehow.
My main reason for going the LifePo4 is to avoid hookups especially in the UK.

my first thought on EHU if I had Lithium on board , it would be to just unplug the onboard charger as the solar would support the lithium.
the starter bat seems to be able to look after itself for most of the time.
Should (in my case) the starter ever needed a trickle, I did instal a break before make switch in phase 1 to allow the mppt to charge starter bat which I could use after changing the charge profile.
But I guess a more permanent solution will be sort.

Thanks again Yossarian and others for such great help. I will keep you posted on outcome and also update when I plan the Lithium’s.

 

[California_Ocean]

Thank you yet again Yossarian, that is a brilliant reply to what is me, overthinking things.

I have even been over on the Victron community and it seems to be a very confusing area to most there.

As I have it now with the link left in alone is an issue we’re the smart alternator stops or reduces voltage when suppling charge to the batteries when the starter battery is charged full, the alternator reduces this voltage lower than that set in the Victron shutdown parameter, thus shutting itself down and therefore no longer charges the leisure’s no matter what their state of charge is.
This was initially hidden from me as my roof solar was also banging the volts at the leisure’s.

so your initial post to me did raise this issue. So big thanks, I’m sure I’m not far from a solution.
I will have a play with that trigger wire.

On the very interesting and important point raised by California_Ocean re the hookup. For now I am still with the AGMs.
when I go LifePo4 it will need addressing somehow.
My main reason for going the LifePo4 is to avoid hookups especially in the UK.

my first thought on EHU if I had Lithium on board , it would be to just unplug the onboard charger as the solar would support the lithium.
the starter bat seems to be able to look after itself for most of the time.
Should (in my case) the starter ever needed a trickle, I did instal a break before make switch in phase 1 to allow the mppt to charge starter bat which I could use after changing the charge profile.
But I guess a more permanent solution will be sort.

Thanks again Yossarian and others for such great help. I will keep you posted on outcome and also update when I plan the Lithium’s.

The smart alternator system is designed to charge and draw current from the batteries, maintaining them at around 80-90% charge.

This is a strategy to reduce emissions. During acceleration, the smart alternator switches off and the vehicle electical systems are supplied from all 3 batteries, and the relay remains closed. The smart alternator switches off to reduce engine load and hence use less fuel to accelerate. Less fuel means less CO2.

When you brake or over-run, the smart alternator dumps charge into all the batteries, this puts extra load on the engine and increases engine braking, turning the kinetic energy of the vehicle into electrical energy stored in the batteries - and the relay remains closed.

When you stop, and the engine switches off automatically (start-stop function - another fuel saving system) the relay will be disconnected immediately before an engine start to prevent the starter loads from being drawn from the leisure batteries (if the starter battery is defective, it might fry the fuses by drawing large currents from the leisure batteries). Once the engine starts, the relay is closed and all the batteries are again joined to the smart alternator.

When you replace the relay with a DC-DC converter to charge Li batteries, then the relay is no longer operable, which isn't a problem as its main job is to protect the leisure batteries from starter loads - the DC-DC will do this too.

Where the behaviour will be erratic, is when the smart alternator switches off when accelerating. This will run the entire vehicle electrical system from the starter battery - and your DC-DC will be adding a 30A load in a worst-case scenario - I have no idea how the Victron DC-DC will cope if this load results in an erratic supply voltage to the DC-DC.

This is currently preventing me from also switching my leisure batteries to Li, along with the VW charger which has an AGM charge profile and would need to be replaced or re-wired if fitting Li leisure batteries.

 

[Shadrack]

The smart alternator system is designed to charge and draw current from the batteries, maintaining them at around 80-90% charge.

This is a strategy to reduce emissions. During acceleration, the smart alternator switches off and the vehicle electical systems are supplied from all 3 batteries, and the relay remains closed. The smart alternator switches off to reduce engine load and hence use less fuel to accelerate. Less fuel means less CO2.

When you brake or over-run, the smart alternator dumps charge into all the batteries, this puts extra load on the engine and increases engine braking, turning the kinetic energy of the vehicle into electrical energy stored in the batteries - and the relay remains closed.

When you stop, and the engine switches off automatically (start-stop function - another fuel saving system) the relay will be disconnected immediately before an engine start to prevent the starter loads from being drawn from the leisure batteries (if the starter battery is defective, it might fry the fuses by drawing large currents from the leisure batteries). Once the engine starts, the relay is closed and all the batteries are again joined to the smart alternator.

When you replace the relay with a DC-DC converter to charge Li batteries, then the relay is no longer operable, which isn't a problem as its main job is to protect the leisure batteries from starter loads - the DC-DC will do this too.

Where the behaviour will be erratic, is when the smart alternator switches off when accelerating. This will run the entire vehicle electrical system from the starter battery - and your DC-DC will be adding a 30A load in a worst-case scenario - I have no idea how the Victron DC-DC will cope if this load results in an erratic supply voltage to the DC-DC.

This is currently preventing me from also switching my leisure batteries to Li, along with the VW charger which has an AGM charge profile and would need to be replaced or re-wired if fitting Li leisure batteries.

Thank you California, that’s a brilliant write up and explanation for me. Really helpful.
I think I am understanding, such a lot going on.
When you say it’s unknown or erratic this would be because the relay would still be closed if a dc dc is installed the trigger wire is still holding the Victron in charge mode With the leisures being low on charge.
If my understanding is correct would not the Victron dc dc shut down as it sees a reverse current from the alternator?

 

[California_Ocean]

Thank you California, that’s a brilliant write up and explanation for me. Really helpful.
I think I am understanding, such a lot going on.
When you say it’s unknown or erratic this would be because the relay would still be closed if a dc dc is installed the trigger wire is still holding the Victron in charge mode With the leisures being low on charge.
If my understanding is correct would not the Victron dc dc shut down as it sees a reverse current from the alternator?

There isn't a reverse current from the alternator, it just stops generating electricity ... the power for the DC-DC will then come solely from the starter battery - energy will be transfered from the starter battery to the Li batteries.

I don't know if the voltage will dip below the threshold the DC-DC needs to keep going if it is drawing the full 30 amps and there are also many other electrical loads switched on.

It is a starter battery however, so should be capable of delivering short bursts of high amps, but the voltage will likely dip .... the devil lies in the detail.

For example if you are climbing a big hill then you may spend some time with your foot to the floor and the alternator may spend a fair amount of time switched off. VW will have taken this into account I would expect, but perhaps not reckoned with an additional 30A parasitic load?

IMO the only way is to try it and monitor how the DC-DC reacts. It may be intelligent enough to cope with all this as the Victron developers do seem pretty switched on.

 

[Shadrack]

There isn't a reverse current from the alternator, it just stops generating electricity ... the power for the DC-DC will then come solely from the starter battery - energy will be transfered from the starter battery to the Li batteries.

I don't know if the voltage will dip below the threshold the DC-DC needs to keep going if it is drawing the full 30 amps and there are also many other electrical loads switched on.

It is a starter battery however, so should be capable of delivering short bursts of high amps, but the voltage will likely dip .... the devil lies in the detail.

For example if you are climbing a big hill then you may spend some time with your foot to the floor and the alternator may spend a fair amount of time switched off. VW will have taken this into account I would expect, but perhaps not reckoned with an additional 30A parasitic load?

IMO the only way is to try it and monitor how the DC-DC reacts. It may be intelligent enough to cope with all this as the Victron developers do seem pretty switched on.

Thank you again California, my mistake. You did say earlier there is always a connection to the starter bat when alternator stops generating.
Victron may have this scenario covered as there is the option of ’smart alternator’ in settings.
Until I discover more I will be staying with my AGM’s for now.
first I need to get this remote connection sorted.
Thanks again for info.

 

[yossarian]

I have a few observations:

The bulk of T6s in the wild have a single starter battery and no leisure batteries. A T6 will work fine from a driving point of view with one battery.

On the T6 the hacky (but accepted) way of preventing the smart alternator from going to sleep is to switch on a significant load like a seat heater.

This is what I'd expect, based on the above:

• Leisure batteries will charge at 30A whenever they are below 80%
• Smart alternator stay operational when Orion is drawing significant current.
• There might be a few thing to try and optimize, like for example when start - stop is active but your vehicle should behave in a very similar manner to one with a seat heater on or rear demister on.

EHU is a problem for another day.

 

[Shadrack]

I have a few observations:

The bulk of T6s in the wild have a single starter battery and no leisure batteries. A T6 will work fine from a driving point of view with one battery.

On the T6 the hacky (but accepted) way of preventing the smart alternator from going to sleep is to switch on a significant load like a seat heater.

This is what I'd expect, based on the above:

• Leisure batteries will charge at 30A whenever they are below 80%
• Smart alternator stay operational when Orion is drawing significant current.
• There might be a few thing to try and optimize, like for example when start - stop is active but your vehicle should behave in a very similar manner to one with a seat heater on or rear demister on.

EHU is a problem for another day.

Hi Yossarian,
I have been running a few days now with the default agm settings on the Victron smart dc dc. It does pretty much run as you have stated.
On initial start there is the few minutes or so delay to allow engine battery to recover from the initial start load.
Then it goes into bulk charge of leisures until the absorption state kicks in. It stays charging even when the stop start activates. I think this is because there is always a delay in the Victron shutting down when the engine is switched off. I must add that any real traffic q’s in my home area are a bit of a novelty.
Whenever I use or park the camper I always have front and rear cameras recording. This will use about 400ma.
Not forgetting I have 200w of solar on the roof to keep leisures topped up.

I will have a play as mentioned earlier with the remote for engine running trigger wire.(the next time I remove the seat)
For now I am pleased with how all is working. When it comes to replacing the leisure agm’s with Lithium,(my phase 3) I think I have pretty much everything in place.
I am not particularly too bothered about the onboard charger as I will unplug or pull the fuse in case on rear occasion I ever need EHU.(when I go lithium’s).
An addition possibly will be a small lithium, mains charger with an Anderson plug fitted to take with me on longer trips.

Thanks again for your help, Yossarian, California_Ocean and to all that have helped my understanding along the way.

 

[Shadrack]

Hi All,
I have come across these batteries from Renogy, thinking of my final bit now to get the LifePo4’s in the camper. The sizes seem to show that they will fit easily where the AGM currently live.

12V 100Ah Smart Lithium Iron Phosphate Battery w/ Self-Heating Function

The Renogy Smart Lithium Iron Phosphate Battery enables auto-balancing between parallel connections and provides more flexibility for the battery bank configuration. The integrated battery management system (BMS) not only protects the battery from various abnormal conditions but monitors and...

uk.renogy.com

Has anyone experience with these from Renogy? Also the terminal connections are different, is there a bracket or Otherwise to connect to the terminals to make the swap out simple. I have seen the posts that can be bought and was thinking of going this route.

Any observations would be appreciated. Ta.

 

[Shadrack]

Hi All,
quick update, the Victron 12-12 30 Orion is running a dream with just the link in the remote connection. So using the Victron auto sense. It seems to work fine.
I am moving on to my Phase three now and have placed an order for the Fogstar under seat 230 lithium. Looks a great unit with heating included.
This will be mounted under the drivers seat with two heavy cables going back to the passenger seat to original battery terminals after removing the old AGM. (This place will be used by a 1kw inverter).
I believe I have to run the neutral back to original neutral to maintain the shunt functions on the CP. An alternative is to use the drivers seat stud for earth.

A question here if someone could possibly help me. If I used the later ie the stud; is it just the current display that is lost or is there other functions on the camper that may be affected?

I intend to ditch completely the inbuilt agm EHU charger. It would only be useful for the engine agm Battery.
Firstly, the alternator would keep that charged. Also in addition, when I installed the solar Victron 75 15 mppt I added a make before break switch to allow me to switch controller output to top up the engine from the solar. So will I have this after changing the charge profile to suit the battery.(all done via Bluetooth)

Again if someone could help me, Is it possible to set the battery type to LifePo4 in the solar mppt controller for new leisure bat and have the load output terminal set to agm profile for engine bat.
I hope my explanation makes sense.

Thanks once again to everyone.

 

[yossarian]

I see on caliboard some punters have had success simply leaving the charger hooked up to the new lithium batteries.

 

[Shadrack]

I see on caliboard some punters have had success simply leaving the charger hooked up to the new lithium batteries.

Do you mean the inbuilt vw agm battery charger or a plugin lithium capable charger?

 

[yossarian]

Do you mean the inbuilt vw agm battery charger or a plugin lithium capable charger?

The VW AGM charger. Go have a look.

 

[Shadrack]

The VW AGM charger. Go have a look.

Hi Yossarian,
I tried to look, (hope I am looking in the right place) but it seems to be all in the German language.

 

[yossarian]

Hi Yossarian,
I tried to look, (hope I am looking in the right place) but it seems to be all in the German language.

Yes it's slow going but Google translate is your friend.