Possible failing starter battery?

[JunglieD]

Hi All - I’m reaching out to the bank of wisdom on the forum regarding a suspected battery issue I’m having. Here’s the situation:

1. Collected my 2017 Ocean 6th Dec and drove a very enjoyable ~5 hours / 270 miles home without any issues whatsoever. It hadn’t been used much in the 2-3 months previously but had been to VW for major service, DSG oil change and MOT on 1st Dec.

2. I next attempted to drive the Cali on 10th Dec but it was was very sluggish to start – sounded like the starter-battery was low or flat as the starter motor was very lethargic to the extent that I abandoned the first-attempt. It did fire up the engine on the second attempt (but again, very sluggish although I didn’t abandon this attempt). Following start, when idling or driving, the ‘Engine Management Lamp’ continually flashed (I kept the engine running for ~45-minutes including a short local drive <2-miles). I was nervous to turn the engine off until safely back in my garage in-case it didn’t re-start. When clicking through to the MFD warning messages it displayed only one ‘Error: Start-stop’. The only other thing of note was that the Central Control panel showed a ~5A discharge when idling/driving (photo attached). This was with all lights/equipment turned-off. With the engine turned off the discharge reduced to 0A and shows Leisure batteries with 12.5V/90% charge

3. I consulted the archives in this forum and realised the starter battery takes a trickle charge from the mains when the leisure batteries are topped up. Accordingly I charged her overnight and by the morning the CCP had settled to 13.6V / 0.2A when plugged in and 13.2V / 0.0A when disconnected (I know this is leisure batteries but I expected this means that the starter battery took some charge after the leisure ones were topped up)

4. Great feeling on 11th Dec when my Cali started without hesitation - I assumed the overnight charge had worked wonders and patted myself on the back. Drove the Cali happily around ~15 miles with plenty of bluemotion stop/starting without skipping a beat

5. Fast forward to today - no usage at all for 2-days over the weekend, but garaged throughout, my Cali was once again incredibly sluggish to start as I set off for work this morning. I didn’t abandon the start and it did eventually fire up - but I’m left wondering what’s going on. CCP shows similar figures to at step 2 (ie discharge even though ‘G’ is indicated). No sign at all of engine warning lights this time though - but I notice the start-stop chose not to initiate at any traffic lights during my commute.

What do you reckon? Have I likely got a starter battery at the end of its life or something else? I’ve booked a battery health check tomorrow but interested in any other ideas. NB - I turned off the Cali footwell lights and haven’t turned them on again following my research during step 3. Prior owner is happy to provide a new starter battery btw - so no complaints there, just want to understand if that truly is the most likely cause.

Cheers
JunglieD

 

[kurienp]

The main is point #3 and 4, where after an overnight charge, all things worked well. Yes, if the vehicle has not been used much and/or battery not maintained well, then it is likely to fail and all points to a failing battery.

As you have already booked a battery test, go ahead with that and see what they say.

Is there anything else attached to any of the 12v ports that could be draining the battery?

 

[andyinluton]

As the van is new to you, I would be checking:
Light in boot under the bed turned off?
Any USB adapters left plugged in? Including in the kitchen
Do you have the in-cupboard lights? are they off
Is it the original stereo? if not wired correctly the CANBUS might not shut down correctly.
Rear view camera been added? not switching off
Dashcams added?
Alarm going off all the time?
van left unlocked in garage so can bus not shutting down
Boot or sliding door not 100% shut ditto

My starter battery is 6.5 years old & has had no maintenence ever & I wouldn't hesitate to leave it for a fortnight & expect the van to start first time so it does sound like something wrong.

Generally if the stop start works, the battery is topped up, as you saw before, it auto disables if the battery is in need of a charge. As stop start was working on the 11th it must have still been ok then.

 

[WelshGas]

Hi All - I’m reaching out to the bank of wisdom on the forum regarding a suspected battery issue I’m having. Here’s the situation:

1. Collected my 2017 Ocean 6th Dec and drove a very enjoyable ~5 hours / 270 miles home without any issues whatsoever. It hadn’t been used much in the 2-3 months previously but had been to VW for major service, DSG oil change and MOT on 1st Dec.

2. I next attempted to drive the Cali on 10th Dec but it was was very sluggish to start – sounded like the starter-battery was low or flat as the starter motor was very lethargic to the extent that I abandoned the first-attempt. It did fire up the engine on the second attempt (but again, very sluggish although I didn’t abandon this attempt). Following start, when idling or driving, the ‘Engine Management Lamp’ continually flashed (I kept the engine running for ~45-minutes including a short local drive <2-miles). I was nervous to turn the engine off until safely back in my garage in-case it didn’t re-start. When clicking through to the MFD warning messages it displayed only one ‘Error: Start-stop’. The only other thing of note was that the Central Control panel showed a ~5A discharge when idling/driving (photo attached). This was with all lights/equipment turned-off. With the engine turned off the discharge reduced to 0A and shows Leisure batteries with 12.5V/90% charge

3. I consulted the archives in this forum and realised the starter battery takes a trickle charge from the mains when the leisure batteries are topped up. Accordingly I charged her overnight and by the morning the CCP had settled to 13.6V / 0.2A when plugged in and 13.2V / 0.0A when disconnected (I know this is leisure batteries but I expected this means that the starter battery took some charge after the leisure ones were topped up)

4. Great feeling on 11th Dec when my Cali started without hesitation - I assumed the overnight charge had worked wonders and patted myself on the back. Drove the Cali happily around ~15 miles with plenty of bluemotion stop/starting without skipping a beat

5. Fast forward to today - no usage at all for 2-days over the weekend, but garaged throughout, my Cali was once again incredibly sluggish to start as I set off for work this morning. I didn’t abandon the start and it did eventually fire up - but I’m left wondering what’s going on. CCP shows similar figures to at step 2 (ie discharge even though ‘G’ is indicated). No sign at all of engine warning lights this time though - but I notice the start-stop chose not to initiate at any traffic lights during my commute.

What do you reckon? Have I likely got a starter battery at the end of its life or something else? I’ve booked a battery health check tomorrow but interested in any other ideas. NB - I turned off the Cali footwell lights and haven’t turned them on again following my research during step 3. Prior owner is happy to provide a new starter battery btw - so no complaints there, just want to understand if that truly is the most likely cause.

Cheers
JunglieD

View attachment 70696

What make is the Starter Battery. If it is made by Moll then VW have been changing these under warranty to Varta as the Moll batteries are prone to early failure.

https://www.t6forum.com/threads/moll-battery.12033/#post-310874

 

[JunglieD]

Thanks for the pointers - I checked all sockets and lights before charging last week but will go over the van again to be sure. It was sluggish again to start after work and I attach a photo of the starter battery - doesn’t look like anything non standard has been added to either terminal but tbh I don’t know what standard looks like... in terms of ICE and gizmos it’s very standard also. Just the basic radio/CD with no nav and no dashcam or auxiliary anything. Will charge overnight to ensure I get to the battery health check tomo!

 

[westfalia]

That battery doesn't look like an original one
and on a 2017 it should still have the original Vw one
unless it has had issues before.

I might be wrong though

 

[WelshGas]

Thanks for the pointers - I checked all sockets and lights before charging last week but will go over the van again to be sure. It was sluggish again to start after work and I attach a photo of the starter battery - doesn’t look like anything non standard has been added to either terminal but tbh I don’t know what standard looks like... in terms of ICE and gizmos it’s very standard also. Just the basic radio/CD with no nav and no dashcam or auxiliary anything. Will charge overnight to ensure I get to the battery health check tomo! View attachment 70702

Someone has swapped the battery. That is Not an original VW battery.

Definitely a Budget Battery.

 

[Alan Andrews]

That battery doesn't look like an original one
and on a 2017 it should still have the original Vw one
unless it has had issues before.

I might be wrong though

Looks like the battery has been swapped out. Perhaps at time of sale?

The Cali needs the new battery to be coded so that the correct charging regime is applied by the smart charging system - perhaps this was not done.

Is the Lion battery of the AGM type? It needs to be to support the Start/Stop system correctly.

You mention that you have a battery function test booked in with VW. This should identify any faults.

With the harshness of winter about to set in, I should prepare to buy a quality and properly rated AGM battery. You can get a suitable battery around 1/2 the price it will cost at VW. Loads of threads in this forum on what to buy.

 

[JunglieD]

Thanks @westfalia @WelshGas @Alan Andrews

Perhaps it started life with a Moll and was replaced with this after-market Lion AGM battery - I'll enquire with the previous owner as to when that was to determine if a charging regime was coded or not. The battery check is with Kwik Fit actually - not ideal I know but they had next-day appts unlike my main dealer. Might you be kind enough to share the OEM Varta battery model that seemingly replaced the Moll?

 

[WelshGas]

Thanks @westfalia @WelshGas @Alan Andrews

Perhaps it started life with a Moll and was replaced with this after-market Lion AGM battery - I'll enquire with the previous owner as to when that was to determine if a charging regime was coded or not. The battery check is with Kwik Fit actually - not ideal I know but they had next-day appts unlike my main dealer. Might you be kind enough to share the OEM Varta battery model that seemingly replaced the Moll?

F21 Varta Silver Dynamic Start-Stop Plus AGM Car Battery 12V 80Ah (580901080) (110 AGM)

F21 VARTA Silver Dynamic AGM Car Battery <i>Innovation with Purpose, Premium Experience, Powerful History</i> VARTA was founded in 1887 Germany, and was established fully in 1904 by delivering the first electric vehicle battery, famously driven by Thomas Edison. Soon after, VARTA delivers the...

www.tayna.co.uk

 

[JunglieD]

So - to close out the thread for those that helped me. I actually got the starter battery health check completed today and it confirms that one of the cells is bad so the battery is a dud and needs replacing. On a positive note the charging system was indicating as expected so that’s a good outcome.

The seller has agreed to supply and fit a replacement so I’ll get that done and request it is a Varta F21 AGM that’s fitted as linked by @WelshGas

I’ll also mention the coding that’s apparently required when installing the new battery.

Thanks again for all the support.

 

[JunglieD]

Rather frustrating I’m sat in VW Greenhous Wolverhampton and they can’t code the battery (Varta F21) I’ve supplied to them for fitting and coding.... apparently it’s uprated from the one that’s supposed to be fitted? 80Ah instead of 75Ah and 800A instead of 750A.....

I mentioned the advice from this forum and they agreed the history with the duff Mol batteries - but said because the specification of this new battery isn’t the same as standard - then they can only fit it but not code. They reckon the only disadvantage for not coding would be if I go to later add tow bar prep or other ancillary electrics - but no coding wouldn’t interfere with general use. Is this accurate?

 

[Perfectos]

Rather frustrating I’m sat in VW Greenhous Wolverhampton and they can’t code the battery (Varta F21) I’ve supplied to them for fitting and coding.... apparently it’s uprated from the one that’s supposed to be fitted? 80Ah instead of 75Ah and 800A instead of 750A.....

I mentioned the advice from this forum and they agreed the history with the duff Mol batteries - but said because the specification of this new battery isn’t the same as standard - then they can only fit it but not code. They reckon the only disadvantage for not coding would be if I go to later add tow bar prep or other ancillary electrics - but no coding wouldn’t interfere with general use. Is this accurate?

The coding tells the computer that the battery is a new full capacity battery and supposedly adjust the charging regime accordingly.

would VW not set the battery recoding at the same as factory spec ?

 

[JunglieD]

The coding tells the computer that the battery is a new full capacity battery and supposedly adjust the charging regime accordingly.

would VW not set the battery recoding at the same as factory spec ?

I’ll ask what they’ve set it to (haven’t left yet) but the update to me was that the selectable ranges don’t include my new Varta spec.

 

[JunglieD]

Apparently no coding can be done - so it has been left uncoded. So I’ve got a brand new Varta F21 fitted for free that will apparently cause no issues to bluemotion or stop-start unless voltage drops below normal levels. Slightly disappointed about the coding but reassured that the new battery quality will give me confidence to leave it several days without plugging it in like a Tesla!

 

[WelshGas]

Rather frustrating I’m sat in VW Greenhous Wolverhampton and they can’t code the battery (Varta F21) I’ve supplied to them for fitting and coding.... apparently it’s uprated from the one that’s supposed to be fitted? 80Ah instead of 75Ah and 800A instead of 750A.....

I mentioned the advice from this forum and they agreed the history with the duff Mol batteries - but said because the specification of this new battery isn’t the same as standard - then they can only fit it but not code. They reckon the only disadvantage for not coding would be if I go to later add tow bar prep or other ancillary electrics - but no coding wouldn’t interfere with general use. Is this accurate?

Well the F21 Varta was a direct Replacement for my Factory Fitted Varta and the new one Coded no problem.
You can either code the new battery with the supplied code, or you just change the serial number of the Old Battery by 1 to initiate a new Learning Mode, so I don't know what that Dealership is doing.

 

[JunglieD]

Well the F21 Varta was a direct Replacement for my Factory Fitted Varta and the new one Coded no problem.
You can either code the new battery with the supplied code, or you just change the serial number of the Old Battery by 1 to initiate a new Learning Mode, so I don't know what that Dealership is doing.

Yes - it’s surprising the dealership couldn’t come up with an alternate plan of action to get around this stumbling block, either one you propose sounds good to me - particularly the initiation of learning mode. Apparently the dead ‘Lion’ battery wasn’t coded so there was nothing to the change the serial number from....