Roof issue on2006 Cali

[simplybikes]

Hi folks....to start with I'm not sure where to post this so apologies if it's in the wrong place.
I recently agreed to purchase a 2006 California in tip top condition from a guy that I know. I know this Cali well and so was trilled when he agreed to sell it to me. To say it was a dream come true would be an under statement. Having made the deal I then discovered this site and the thread on Roof Corrosion. Needless to say I was absolutely horrified and immediately asked to inspect the roof. You know where this is going - there was corrosion visible. Having thought about it for 24 hours I decided to go ahead and take my chances however at this stage I'm having second thoughts as I really don't know what I'm taking on, the extent of the issue and the likely cost. The problem I have is that here in Ireland the VW dealers are less than useless as there are so few Californias sold here. They just don't want to know. My question to the good people who own Calis is should I proceed or walk away. Am I taking on a world of hurt and stress.

 

[Meoncoast]

Re: Roof issue

do not know the cost but this is going to effect people who what to sale and those who want to buy a Cali over 6 years old It has to have a knock on effect to prices. We love ousr but I would think about buying another because of the roof issues. Owning a camper is the best thing we have done but if in the market today am not sure what I would do.

If you go for it you will love it but the roof issue is the thing that make or break Cali ownership for you

 

[simplybikes]

Thanks Andy, appreciate the reply.
From what you see would you walk away?

 

[Meoncoast]

I would want to know cost to repair and a good % of that off the price. or go for a younger model ie under 6 years old so covered by VW. Ours is 2012 and rust free at this time I would 100% buy a campervan again but which one I am not sure :hello

 

[simplybikes]

My thinking is that I should not go ahead with this until I have it properly inspected by a VW dealer (if I can find one that gives a damn) and know exactly what I am letting myself in for.

 

[WelshGas]

Just be aware that this problem is NOT the normal "rust" corrosion that one sees with steel components that will lead to a hole in the metal similar to a rust hole in a body panel.

Corrosion is the chemical reaction of a metal, in this case aluminum, with its environment, which leads to the deterioration of the properties of metals, aluminum in this case. Aluminum is a very reactive metal, but it is also a passive metal. This contradictory nature is explainable because nascent aluminum reacts with oxygen or water and forms a coherent surface oxide which impedes further reaction of aluminum with the environment.

The usual form is galvanic corrosion between the aluminium of the roof and the steel reinforcement in the rubber roof seal or the front panel and steel surround. Although the paint bubbles, because the aluminium oxide formed lifts the paint, the structural integrity is maintained.
A strip back to bare metal, a good quality zinc primer and the re-spray will return the roof to new. A lot of the cost is the respray, especially matching the color, but you could go for a contrasting colour, no matching. Also you could just remove the rubber seal, rub back the edge 2" , zinc primer and top coat with contrasting colour, even Hammerite or equivalent.

Remember it is an 8 year old vehicle. Very very few vehicles of that age are in showroom condition.

Having owned a Land Rover Defender for many years I am well use to dealing with this Aluminium Galvanic Corrosion. If the rest of the California is in tip top condition and has been well maintained then go for it. NOTHING lasts for ever despite what the doomsayers say. Use it, abuse it and enjoy it! :hello

 

[yanathem]

The price quoted is roughly £4500.00 + today's prices this is likely to change if your place in the queue is a couple of years away and this is for to change the complete roof and respray. And then you will have to figure in costs getting to and from the mainland to one of the approved repairers and then join a very long queue to get the work done.
Or find a local body repair specialist local to you and ask them to quote to rub down and respray the lower part of the front panel. I would think this shouldn't be any more than a few hundred pounds and done correctly it should last the same amount of time it has taken for the roof corrosion to show it's self in the first instance.
One thing I have noticed through posting and other posts on here it seems the older Cali's roof's corrosion is not as evident as the more modern one's and I'm wondering if the paint on the newer vehicles is either not as good or placed on thinner. Some 2014 vans have this corrosion so it's only taking those months to show through rather than years for our vans.
All California's are going to be prone to this corrosion so any second hand van regardless of age will need this repair work, of course those registered after August 2008 and soon to be September 2008 are covered by this new repair procedure but even that's to early to see if that has even fixed the corrosion.
I bought mine second hand knowing about the corrosion but not at the extent it is now known about but this is thanks to certain members and the forum committee chasing down vw. I think this roof issue will go on for a very long time yet and vw to honour the 12 year corrosion warrenty that everyone expected in the first place especially when more and more owners realise this problem exsists and are not getting the warrenty they thought they were.

 

[Stu]

I think whatever happens it's not going to happen quickly as there are only 4 people trained, 1 at each of the 4 selected body shops, coupled with a massive shortage of spare parts.

The cost to repair is likely to be up to £5k before you factor in any transportation costs.

It's a tough one for the seller but unfortunately you have to protect yourself so if you are going to buy the price should reflect the cost to repair.

 

[simplybikes]

Folks....many thanks for your replies, there is a lot of food for thought in there. If it was a case of just stripping it back, priming and repainting as Welshgas said I would most defintitely go for it because it is immaculate. I suppose my fear not knowing what is going on is that there is some bigger issue at play which ultimately leaves me lying in bed at night thinking about my roof being eaten away. I need to take it to a paint shop and talk to somebody. I'll leave you know how I get on. Thanks again.

 

[Stu]

I think you need to first understand what is required for the repair, it's not just paint work and far from it. Parts bill is over £2k alone.

My advice would be to seek the wisdom/advice of one of the 4 trained bodyshops. A repair is likely to involve getting the van to the main land,

 

[WelshGas]

I agree the parts are expensive, that is because VW are replacing the front roof panel in total for a new part that is just as strong but with proper separation of the dissimilar metals to prevent the galvanic corrosion from occurring again. You could just rubdown, prime and reprint, BUT, most body shops I have dealt with warrant their repairs for 3 years or so. VW know that if they went down this route then as the root cause for the galvanic corrosion has not been addressed then they could be liable to repeat that repair ad infinitum at what total cost per vehicle? I don't know the answer but I bet the repair they are carrying out on the front panel is more cost effective in the long term.
However, for those with older vehicles outside the VW imposed 6 year limit carrying out the VW REPAIR would probably not be cost effective compared with the possible lifespan of the vehicle and that periodic body repair/paint would be more cost effective.
Just my own personal opinion.

 

[reserves]

Is this issue purely cosmetic or is there any risk to parts not working, or a physical hole appearing in the roof for example?

 

[2into1]

How long before some enterprising person manages to make a front pod in fiberglass?

 

[WelshGas]

I believe this is mainly cosmetic. Other parts of the vehicle will have rusted away or failed before these areas of corrosion perforate and weaken the panels or roof. I asked on the other topic http://vwcaliforniaclub.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=71&t=7136&start=960 if anyone has pictures of one of these corroded areas that had perforated. No answers or photos yet.
A fibreglass/reinforced elevating roof panel would be a useful alternative. The front panel is a different matter as I believe it is part of the structural integrity of the vehicle.
Which means VW would have to do something for ALL affected vehicles, no matter how old, if this "corrosion" , due to a design fault, was to affect the structural strength of the vehicle.
So to answer "reserves" question. Yes!

 

[reserves]

Sorry, are you concluding it's cosmetic, or you think structural?

 

[Stu]

I agree the parts are expensive, that is because VW are replacing the front roof panel in total for a new part that is just as strong but with proper separation of the dissimilar metals to prevent the galvanic corrosion from occurring again. You could just rubdown, prime and reprint, BUT, most body shops I have dealt with warrant their repairs for 3 years or so. VW know that if they went down this route then as the root cause for the galvanic corrosion has not been addressed then they could be liable to repeat that repair ad infinitum at what total cost per vehicle? I don't know the answer but I bet the repair they are carrying out on the front panel is more cost effective in the long term.
However, for those with older vehicles outside the VW imposed 6 year limit carrying out the VW REPAIR would probably not be cost effective compared with the possible lifespan of the vehicle and that periodic body repair/paint would be more cost effective.
Just my own personal opinion.

The replacement is a modified part which I am told has a different alloys composition.

It's also quite a large part which appears to require the roof to be removed to replace it. Removing the roof then requires a new bellows and the list goes on.

I saw the huge pile of parts when I visited my van being repaired at AB Crush and I also had the opportunity to see the old and new parts of the front section which are made of aluminium casting.

So in some respects it is cosmetic, and yes I am sure the van would live on, but as a purchaser it is only fair to take this cost into consideration. It would affect any future resale.

It's not some quick blow over with some fresh paint, we know this doesn't work as others who had their vans repaired in such a way previously have seen corrosion reappear quite quickly.

 

[simplybikes]

I'm wondering the same Welshgas, cosmetic or strutural?

 

[Stu]

I think essentially it is a structural part, it is actually called roof reinforcement in the parts catalogue. However the damage at the early stages is, as I said above, largely cosmetic but if allowed to progress indefinitely it is going to weaken.

You can see this revision of the part was introduced 15 - 07 - 2013 and it comes in at a hefty £575. The repair set to use with it to fit it is £250.

 

[simplybikes]

Stu....as a well informed man on this issue would you buy an 8 year old Cali in pristine condition with corrosion as can be seen on the photos at the start of thisthread?

 

[Stu]

Stu....as a well informed man on this issue would you buy an 8 year old Cali in pristine condition with corrosion as can be seen on the photos at the start of thisthread?

Yes of course - If as I said above it was reflected in the price.

In my opinion what you need to do is factor in what it is likely to cost you to have it corrected. Probably the best way to do that it to get a written quotation from one of the select 4 bodyshops.

It's a sh1t sandwich for the seller, I don't envy them at all, but as a buyer there is buyers choice and as such you can choose whether to buy or not. In reality you aren't going to find a van that doesn't need a repair (unless it's one of the very very few that has already been done)

Actually so long as the seller is willing to accept an offer that reflects the cost to repair you could both do well out of it. The seller will get to move on a van which to be honest could be hard to sell under the circumstances and you can get to own a van for potentially £4-5k less than retail money. If you then choose to repair it or live with it is your choice and whatever happens I think you are going to live with it for the foreseeable future due to the parts situation.

Talk to the seller and see what their view is on the situation and if necessary put an offer on the table with a time limit to give you a decision.

When negotiating have in the back of your mind that you may be looking to sell the van in the near future (even though you might not, who knows what will be around the corner) so you will have the same kick in the nuts as this seller will have.

 

[simplybikes]

I feel sorry for the seller ( a good friend of mine) as he knew absolutely nothing about the entire corrosion issue and this has come as a bombshell to him. He bought a 3 year old Cali 3 months ago in the UK and is now clambering around the roof looking for corrosion. If I could be sure that it was not a structural issue and simply needed to be looked after every 1 or 2 years by way of stripping back / painting etc. I would good for it. Definitely not going to spend approx. €7,000 getting the panel etc. replaced on an 8 year old van,, I think that would be madness.

 

[spanner]

I would want to have the proper work done and I am sure I am not alone . Rather than just a patch up, like Stu says you may end up selling again and any buyer will want to see the corrosion has been sorted correctly. Only one option I think and that is knock £4,500 off the asking price and then get the work done in your own time.

 

[reserves]

At 4.5k off asking there would be circa £20k Cali's.

 

[yanathem]

Amazing the last of the T4 westfalia California's are now potentially more expensive than the T5 I wonder now who is having the last laugh.

 

[WelshGas]

So 2014 California's only have the elevating roof to worry about! We'll see!
I still think asking a seller to take a £5000 hit on an 8 yr old + camper for what in the life of a campervan is predominately a cosmetic repair, is pushing your luck. I would be more concerned about the mechanics of the vehicle and it's overall safety. No 8 yr old vehicle is in showroom condition. It will be interesting to see what dealers will be doing in the second hand market.
This problem with Land Rover Defenders who also suffer with the well known chassis rot as well has had very little if any effect on the second hand market.
Also, just look at some of the horror stories from the conversion sector.