Vehicle class

[andyinluton]

T4WFA stated

"Vehicles classified by the Dvla as motor caravans get perks in terms of lower vehicle duty, reflecting the fact they tend to be used for leisure and only cover low mileages, particularly compared to the passenger carrying versions of the panel vans on which many are based, which are taxed on co2 and now (?) list price"

That used to be the case, but since about 2009 the California SE has been taxed based on emissions even when registered as a Motor Caravan rather than the "flat rate" - this when the bluemotion stuff first came in.
When the beach was first introduced it was taxed as a car at something like £425 a year yet the SE at the same time was only £235

When the first T5 SEs were registered in 2007? there was a huge amount of confusion with some being registered as Cars and paying the £400+ tax and some as Motor caravans at £235 I remember a lot of owners getting reclassified and getting tax refunds.

There are a number of reasons that a beach would be better off registered as a car rather than Motor caravan - including being able to park in Swanage whilst sticking to fingers up to the parking attendants & also cheaper crossings on the channel tunnel.

 

[2into1]

That used to be the case, but since about 2009 the California SE has been taxed based on emissions even when registered as a Motor Caravan rather than the "flat rate" - this when the bluemotion stuff first came in.

Thanks for the info. This implies that face-lift SEs, registered as motor caravans, will pay different rates of tax depending on their engine size / gearbox /2 or 4 wheel drive, when I thought lots would be paying the flat PLG rates of £235.
Can some of those owners confirm by adding their 12 month tax rate (only face-lift SEs please who know they are registered as motor caravans at this stage please)?

 

[andyinluton]

my 2015 SE is £270 based on CO2 registered as Motor Caravan - what you have to watch for is a pre-bluemotion 4 wheel drive automatic which can be £465

 

[soulstyledevon]

Thanks for the info. This implies that face-lift SEs, registered as motor caravans, will pay different rates of tax depending on their engine size / gearbox /2 or 4 wheel drive, when I thought lots would be paying the flat PLG rates of £235.
Can some of those owners confirm by adding their 12 month tax rate (only face-lift SEs please who know they are registered as motor caravans at this stage please)?

I can see the point here as a Cali shouldn't be registered as N1, which is PLG.
It obviously shouldn't be in that category

 

[andyinluton]

No N1 doesnt mean PLG, PLG is a sweep up of any vehicle that doesnt fit into other catagories,

If for example you convert a caravelle into a camper after it has previously been registered as a car, it would then be reregistered as a "motor Caravan" tax would be the flat rate as the original emission testing would no longer be relevent.
When the californias were first sold the emissions testing was not part of the type approval hence early ones were PLG

The N1 and M1 catagorisation is only important with regard to speed limits not the way its road taxed.

My previous motorhome was M1 and PLG but still 8m long 3m high but subject to car speed limits - seemed silly as there was a ford transit chassis cab underneath and weighed in at 3.5 tonnes.

There is currently similar debate about the Kombi should it be registered as a car M1 or Van N1 I had looked at running one as a company vehicle but it appears you get the N1 speed restriction but for company car tax its treated as a car not a van





From the Gov website:

1 The Private/Light Goods Class (PLG) This class mainly covers private cars and light goods vehicles (not over 3,500kg revenue weight) that do not fall under the Graduated VED Schemes. However, any vehicle which does not fall within the other classes, described in this booklet falls within the “PLG” class for duty purposes. Within the PLG tax class, there are 2 vehicle tax bands: Vehicles with an engine size up to and including 1549cc pay a reduced rate, whilst vehicles with an engine size of 1550cc and over pay a standard rate of duty.

 

[soulstyledevon]

No N1 doesnt mean PLG, PLG is a sweep up of any vehicle that doesnt fit into other catagories,

If for example you convert a caravelle into a camper after it has previously been registered as a car, it would then be reregistered as a "motor Caravan" tax would be the flat rate as the original emission testing would no longer be relevent.
When the californias were first sold the emissions testing was not part of the type approval hence early ones were PLG

The N1 and M1 catagorisation is only important with regard to speed limits not the way its road taxed.

My previous motorhome was M1 and PLG but still 8m long 3m high but subject to car speed limits - seemed silly as there was a ford transit chassis cab underneath and weighed in at 3.5 tonnes.

There is currently similar debate about the Kombi should it be registered as a car M1 or Van N1 I had looked at running one as a company vehicle but it appears you get the N1 speed restriction but for company car tax its treated as a car not a van





From the Gov website:

1 The Private/Light Goods Class (PLG) This class mainly covers private cars and light goods vehicles (not over 3,500kg revenue weight) that do not fall under the Graduated VED Schemes. However, any vehicle which does not fall within the other classes, described in this booklet falls within the “PLG” class for duty purposes. Within the PLG tax class, there are 2 vehicle tax bands: Vehicles with an engine size up to and including 1549cc pay a reduced rate, whilst vehicles with an engine size of 1550cc and over pay a standard rate of duty.

It does all become very confusing. Reading through the DVLA website, surely a vehicle should fall into either Diesel Car, Petrol Car or PLG for taxation purposes regardless weather it is a campervan or not. The body type becomes irrelevant to taxation class. As it would be Motorcaravan, Saloon or estates etc etc..?

So should a camper be taxed as the following:

Body Type: Motor Caravan
Taxation Class: Diesel Car

or

Body Type: Motor Caravan
Taxation Class: PLG

Am i missing something here, as I really am now confused...???

 

[andyinluton]

If its built as a motor caravan & goes through type approval with emisions testing prior to first registration its taxed as a Diesel car.
If its built as a car or van, registered and then converted it would be PLG.
If its built as a motor caravan put through IVA (as a small converter may do with a new van) with no emmisions testing then its PLG

Simple really?

 

[Monkeytree]

My t6 beach is classed as a diesel car, with 7 seats. Road tax is about £215 or so a year and insurance about the same. I don't think the insurance would be much less if it was a motorhome so i don't really care!

 

[Richard Teale]

Really can't see why this matters, when you use a decent insurance company the vehicles are pre populated and they know what they can and cant insure. Honestly I don't give two hoots what it says I'm fully legal and covered! All we were doing was answering a Q that had been asked and as usual it turns into a debate over the validity of other people vehicles. Whilst this forum has its upsides some of these debates are getting old and tired!

Just came upon this thread when searching for "West Yorkshire" (seeking views on VW Van Centre as it happens), but was drawn into reading it. What does it matter? Perhaps less material from an insurance perspective, but if your California is not classed as a MOTOR CARAVAN on your V5 then you will likely be restricted by law to the same limits as a PANEL VAN (i.e. max 50mph on an single carriageway road and 60mph on a dual carriageway).

 

[andyinluton]

Deleted - I was wrong!

 

[WelshGas]

Richard
Its the M1 or N1 classification that dictates speed limits not the body type. M1 = car speed limits, N1 = van

I'm not sure that is totally correct.
I know that you cannot change the M1 or N1 classification, BUT why do people who convert their own N1 panel vans into Campervans jump through all the hoops put up by DVLA to get their Body Classification changed to Motor Caravan. I was lead to believe it was for both Insurance reasons and the higher speed limits allowed.

https://www.gov.uk/speed-limits

 

[Richard Teale]

Richard
Its the M1 or N1 classification that dictates speed limits not the body type. M1 = car speed limits, N1 = van

Happy to be corrected @andyinluton. Where is this information on the V5? Can't see anything that look like either M1 or N1.

 

[andyinluton]

Sorry you are correct see below blatantly copied and pasted from Jerba Campervans site

T5 & T6 Speed Limits

By cath on December 4, 2015

A question we’ve been asked a number of times over the years is what are the T5 & T6 speed limits? The answer is not as clear as you might first think! We spent quite a few hours with phone calls back and forth with the DVLA and the Dept for Transport before we finally tracked down someone who could give us a full and clear understanding!

On the V5 (DVLA ownership certificate) for every vehicle there is one key heading that will provide the answer. Under Section 4 refer to heading D5 titled Body Type – if the van is classified as either a Motorcaravan or a Van/Side Windows then the vehicle is considered to be the same as a regular car and hence 70mph on a motorway /dual carriageway or 60mph on a single carriage road is allowed.

If you don’t have a T5 or T6 but a Motorcaravan based upon a different shell then for the above speed limits to apply the vehicle must be less than 12m in length and the unladen weight must be less than 3050kg. For length the VW T5 & T6 all clearly fine with the SWB being 4.9m and the LWB 5.3m. T5 & T6 unladen weights also start at just over 1900kg and rise to around 2200kg depending on wheel base, transmission, 4 motion option etc.

For those VW T5 & T6 owners out on the road who have the term Panel Van under D5 on their V5, then the lower speed limits do apply, as the DVLA and DFT consider the van to be commercial. So you can be fined. There is a possible solution though , as if your T5 or T6 has been converted to a Motorcaravan you can apply to the DVLA for the Body Type to be changed to Motorcaravan.

The DVLA have a standard procedure for such applications, which involves sending photos to demonstrate that the conversion meets their criteria – this includes a seat that folds into a bed, fixed furniture, fixed cooking facilities, removable table etc. The criteria has been refined over time so it’s best ask the DVLA for the latest information. If your conversion doesn’t meet what they’re looking for then they’ll probably say that your van is a “day van” and refuse to alter the Body Type.

The Taxation Class on the V5 is often a category that people assume will dictate the speed limits for their vehicle, but this is not the case. The well known and high quality VW converters in the UK will generally all be converting T5’s & T6’s that are classed by manufacturers at production as Diesel Cars and not as Private Light Goods vehicles. The classification of any vehicle is decided by the manufacturer and normally is not changed by the converter. For a Diesel Car the manufacturer must declare a CO2 emissions figure at production and if that vehicle is converted to a Motorcaravan before first registration then the converter must transfer that emissions figure across onto their registration documentation and the category of Diesel Car is maintained. However, if the converter can prove that the conversion has altered the manufacturer’s original emissions figures but cannot prove what the new figure is, then the vehicle would be registered in the Private Light Goods category! The fact remains though, that where a manufacturer declares a vehicle as Private Light Goods at manufacture they intend for the vehicle to be used in the commercial and not passenger and motorcaravan market.

If your van has a Taxation Class of Diesel Car then by default it should either have Motorcaravan or Van/Side Windows for Body Type, so feel free to drive at 70mph on the motorway. It’s worth double checking your V5 though as the DVLA and indeed manufacturers have been known to get such information wrong!

One key difference that the Diesel Car/Private Light Goods classification makes to the owner is the annual road tax. Diesel Car classification means that CO2 emissions are taken into account so road tax varies according to engine efficiency, whilst for Private Light Goods it is an annual flat rate of £230. The new T6 Euro 06 engines however are now so efficient that for VW T6’s classified as Diesel Cars the annual road tax even on a LWB 150bhp four wheel drive is still only £180!

Hope that all makes sense!!

 

[Stoneybroke]

Just came upon this thread when searching for "West Yorkshire" (seeking views on VW Van Centre as it happens), but was drawn into reading it. What does it matter? Perhaps less material from an insurance perspective, but if your California is not classed as a MOTOR CARAVAN on your V5 then you will likely be restricted by law to the same limits as a PANEL VAN (i.e. max 50mph on an single carriageway road and 60mph on a dual carriageway).

Shouldn't be a problem as California is not a conversion, it's never been a van, it has been made with windows and seats in the back and therefore does not meet the criteria for a van, so it has the same speed limits as a car (and a Caravelle or Shuttle)

 

[Richard Teale]

Shouldn't be a problem as California is not a conversion, it's never been a van, it has been made with windows and seats in the back and therefore does not meet the criteria for a van, so it has the same speed limits as a car (and a Caravelle or Shuttle)

Agree it shouldn't be a problem for the California but further back in this thread some folks were saying that their vehicles had been incorrectly classified in their V5. Unless your V5 says Motor Caravan then in theory at least you risk being treated as a Panel Van since the California is not a car-derived van. I say in theory as in practice I'd be surprised if many people have fallen foul of this misclassification?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Stoneybroke]

Agree it shouldn't be a problem for the California but further back in this thread some folks were saying that their vehicles had been incorrectly classified in their V5. Unless your V5 says Motor Caravan then in theory at least you risk being treated as a Panel Van since the California is not a car-derived van. I say in theory as in practice I'd be surprised if many people have fallen foul of this misclassification?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

OK, all a bit theoretical as Gatsos can't differentiate the vehicle traveling through it!

 

[Loz]

We had an Amazon depot near us for a year and the police regularly set up a manually operated speed trap and regularly booked the Transit white vans for exceeding 50mph.
After 2 months of this they changed to Transporters, I asked one of the drivers why they had changed vans and he said to stop the speeding tickets as the new vans were under 2.2 tonnes and not restricted.

 

[Keith Smith]

We had an Amazon depot near us for a year and the police regularly set up a manually operated speed trap and regularly booked the Transit white vans for exceeding 50mph.
After 2 months of this they changed to Transporters, I asked one of the drivers why they had changed vans and he said to stop the speeding tickets as the new vans were under 2.2 tonnes and not restricted.

I have a 1.9tonne Vivaro and that is restricted and, as far as I know, all non car derived vans are restricted independent of weight. I can't imagine they would class a Transporter as car derived but perhaps the police though they were all Cali's or Caravelles

 

[Loz]

I'm surprised it's not open season on all the van drivers in that case.

 

[Digger]

Spoke to friendly traffic policeman and he said motorhomes less than 3 tonnes (permanent cooking facility required) or car derived vans have same speed limit as cars HOWEVER
Car-derived vans are the only goods vehicles which are subject to the same speed limit as a car.
Car-derived vans are designed to weigh no more than 2 tonnes when loaded and are based on car designs (eg Ford Fiesta, Vauxhall Corsa), or the vehicle is built from a platform which has been designed to be built as a car or a van. Not Transporter or Transit size but small vans -car sized only
These vehicles will look like the size of a car, but on the inside the vehicle will look like and function as a van. They cannot have rear seats, rear seat belts or mountings.no side windows in the rear of the vehicle or if present, side windows will be opaque and fixed (with no means of opening or closing).
I know the VW Kombi is subject to the lower speed limits (fines to prove) so would err on safe side.
He also said the system checks registration numbers with DVLA automatically so don't suppose there is easy way out if caught especially as they want as much money from the motorist as possible

 

[andyinluton]

OK, all a bit theoretical as Gatsos can't differentiate the vehicle traveling through it!

The gatso can't but the office that sends the ticket can.

When we had a 3.5tnne motorhome we used to set all the cameras off round our way in a 60 limit. I presume there is either a weight or height sensor somewhere that assumes if you are say 3+ tnnes or over 2.5m or something like that, the chances are you are a van or lorry therefore 40 or 50 limit rather than 60. The camera flashes & the office that sends the fines checks & finds you are actually ok at 60 so the fine doesn't get sent.

 

[Stoneybroke]

The gatso can't but the office that sends the ticket can.

When we had a 3.5tnne motorhome we used to set all the cameras off round our way in a 60 limit. I presume there is either a weight or height sensor somewhere that assumes if you are say 3+ tnnes or over 2.5m or something like that, the chances are you are a van or lorry therefore 40 or 50 limit rather than 60. The camera flashes & the office that sends the fines checks & finds you are actually ok at 60 so the fine doesn't get sent.

The original fixed cameras were not that intelligent, they are set at a particular limit, and go off at any speed above that limit.
Some newer ones do have the ability to differentiate vehicle length and adjust the activation speed according to the length, on the assumption that longer = slower speed limits, so it really depends where you live and what cameras are fitted locally, however, since a Transporter or Transit are similar lengths to larger cars, e.g. shorter than an Audi A6, they are unlikely to be detected as longer, slower HGV's.

 

[Stoneybroke]

Spoke to friendly traffic policeman and he said motorhomes less than 3 tonnes (permanent cooking facility required) or car derived vans have same speed limit as cars HOWEVER
Car-derived vans are the only goods vehicles which are subject to the same speed limit as a car.
Car-derived vans are designed to weigh no more than 2 tonnes when loaded and are based on car designs (eg Ford Fiesta, Vauxhall Corsa), or the vehicle is built from a platform which has been designed to be built as a car or a van. Not Transporter or Transit size but small vans -car sized only
These vehicles will look like the size of a car, but on the inside the vehicle will look like and function as a van. They cannot have rear seats, rear seat belts or mountings.no side windows in the rear of the vehicle or if present, side windows will be opaque and fixed (with no means of opening or closing).
I know the VW Kombi is subject to the lower speed limits (fines to prove) so would err on safe side.
He also said the system checks registration numbers with DVLA automatically so don't suppose there is easy way out if caught especially as they want as much money from the motorist as possible

VW Kombi may be Dual Purpose vehicle and would be subject to same limits as car. I say maybe, because some are over the weight limit to DPV and some don't have the necessary glass in the rear doors to fit the classification.
Frankly, the legislation is very messy, the V5 tax class and body type classifications, vehicle class (M1,N1, etc.) and HMRC rules may be different for the same vehicle, or may differ between versions of the same model! Bonkers

 

[Keith Smith]

It's all a bit mad, I'm restricted in my 1.9tonne Vivaro but not in my 3tonne Cali, but I think the biggest problem is on single carriageway roads like the A49 near me. Law abiding HGV and van drivers are travelling 10 mph slower than cars can travel which I am sure contributes to the reckless overtaking and the fatal accidents the road is notorious for.

 

[Stoneybroke]

It's all a bit mad, I'm restricted in my 1.9tonne Vivaro but not in my 3tonne Cali, but I think the biggest problem is on single carriageway roads like the A49 near me. Law abiding HGV and van drivers are travelling 10 mph slower than cars can travel which I am sure contributes to the reckless overtaking and the fatal accidents the road is notorious for.

Until recently (April 2015) the HGV'S over 7.5 tonnes should have been traveling at 40mph on any unrestricted road - when did that ever happen? They still have to in Scotland...
But I agree, why the difference between a VW T5/6 van vs T5/6 shuttle/Caravelle/Cali - same vehicle, potentially more lives at stake in a Shuttle...