VW California T6.1 Sagging Wonky Deflating Bellows / Roof / Poptop TPI

[CaliforniaCylus]

I've see many posts both here and on Facebook and I wanted to try to pull a single thread together. I've labelled this as a T6.1 issue which it strictly isn't but it is T6.1 owners in particular who will be looking at this in terms of a warranty fix.

And that is where it appears to get extremely difficult.

VW are aware of this and yesterday, Breeze showed me a detailed, yet unclear, TPI document which they as a dealer have to follow. They won't print it for me but I was allowed to read it and I wasn't asked not to disclose. So the next post will be as much detail as I can remember.

 

[CaliforniaCylus]

The Technical Bulletin on Sagging bellows is essentially this:

Customer reports the problem.

VW dealership investigates to see if this is within tolerance.

The dealer is instucted to raise the pop-top and look to see if the drop is in tolerance.

VW State that if the bellows sag between 10cm and 20cm over a 72 hour period, then further investigation is required otherwise they inform the customer it is within an acceptable tolerance.

If the drop is 10cms - 20cms, then there are a detailed set of instructions about how to bleed the roof hydraulics. So far as I could tell, this is a decision the dealer makes without reference to VW, assuming the roof is "out of tolerance".

These instructions are not simply raise and drop the roof 6 times but involve taking the control panel etc off, locating the bleed screw and bleeding the system. I wasn't able to remember any more detail about how the bleeding actually occurs.

If the bellows remain out of tolerance, then the dealer itself cannot choose to start changing rams or the hydraulic pump but must refer a report to VW Technical.

 

[CaliforniaCylus]

My problem with the TPI

Dealers appear to have some flexibility about whether or not they wait the full 72 hours. In my case, it look's like they left it up for 24 hours with no appreciable sagging and concluded it was within tolerance.

I expected that because the pop-top was inside a dealer premises and there would have been no direct sunlight heating up the system and no significant temperature change which exaggerates the issue.

There is also nothing about re-inflation in the TPI. When left to its own devices, mine reinflates at 10 hours and every subsequent 5 hours and if no-one messes with the ignition or does manual re-inflation it NEVER misses a beat.

So I dropped off the vehicle during the day. It could have sagged overnight to be out of tolerance yet if they started the test at 3pm it would have re-inflated at 01:00 and 06:00. By the time the dealers opened, the bellows would be nice and tight regardless.

So why does the TPI state a drop of 10 to 20cms over 72 hours. Sureley the re-inflation needs to be disabled in order to measure the true tolerance. Taken literally, the TPI could allow a roof dropping 9 cm every 5 hours, assuming the 18cm initial drop at 10 hours occurred overnight.

The TPI "measurements" are a mess. There's nothing rigorous or transparent about them so I'll write to VW when I have a moment and see if it can be clarified.

Meanwhile, please share your experiences here.

 

[CaliforniaCylus]

Our Experience of the sagging

On a hot summers day at a festival in Germany, with temperatures in the mid 30s, we returned mid-day to find the van in full sun with sagging bellows which we re-inflated. We then put the aircon on for an hour and the sun which had been hitting the drivers side abated. The picture is what happened after an hour.

In September, on a tour or Spain, we had a week when we weren't using the van so did two x 72 hour tests.

We aborted the first one because unusually for us, the bellows re-inflated regularly.

The second test we wrote down all the expected re-inflation points and monitored when we could. It was still auto-re-inflating at 3 days. Typically sag at just before re-inflation was between 2 and 6cms. Enough to stop the roof lights working and cumulatively over 72 hours more than 20cms

 

[CaliforniaCylus]

Breeze did some warranty work for us this week.

They did a great job on all of the items but their hands were tied on further dealing with the sagging bellows.

They showed me the TPI and I asked them for a quote for the bleeding work, which is the only work it seems they can do without a technical report to VW.

The problem is frustrating on a new expensive vehicle so I asked them to bleed the system as a chargeable item. It was 1 hour of labour and without some warmer days, I'm not clear when I will know if the problem is fixed or not.

I also saw another frustrated owner on Facebook yesterday:

"Has anyone had the Poptop hydrauliques/pumps etc. replaced on a 6.1? If so, what was the cost? My patience has run out with the continued dropping and malfunction of the dxxn thing. It is unfit for purpose. Ps. other opinions may differ!"

 

[DanKavanagh]

We’ve had our 2023 Ocean for about six weeks. It had done 2,000 miles as an ex-Breeze rental when we got it. We’ve had two one-night trips away in it, once before the O3S bellows was replaced with an O6S, and one since then.

We are loving it, and would like to use it more but work is currently very busy - so we’re looking forward to next year and lots of planned trips.

Having done a lot of research, much of it here, before buying - I was aware of the sagging roof issue, but we haven’t been away long enough yet to identify if we have any issues.

Reading this thread, I’m still not sure if it does apply as our ‘wonky roof’ issue happened very quickly while putting the roof down. It is really interesting to read however about the lights in the top not working, as that is now ringing alarm bells.

A relative came to visit from Sheffield on Monday. He has a T2 that they have taken to France every year for the last two decades, and he was keen to see our T6.1 Cali.

It is parked on the drive so we went and gave him a stationary tour; cupboards, tables, chairs, hobs, heater etc. You know the drill.

We put the roof up to show the top bed etc (which we haven’t used yet). I used the control panel to put the pop-top lights on. The passenger side light came on, then flickered and went off, the driver side wouldn’t turn on. I tried the physical switches for both, but neither worked. I made a mental note to check the fuse, and took photos of the lights and control panel thinking I might post for advice here.

After sitting in the van and chatting for half an hour I went to put the roof down, and all appeared to be going smoothly as I started to gather the canvas. At roughly half-way down I paused and asked my wife and relative to do a visual check outside to make sure no canvas was snagged etc.

They went out and shouted that the roof looked seriously uneven. They were right, it didn’t look good. I hadn’t noticed from inside as I was sort of covered in canvas.

Having considered for a couple of minutes, we put the roof back up, and then brought it down - with the others outside checking things. This time it came down evenly.

I sent this photo to Breeze, and it’s going in for a couple of days in a fortnight’s time. I’m not to use the roof before then. I really hope the roof itself, and the scissors/hydraulics aren’t damaged, but the lights not coming on is perhaps an indication that there was an issue?

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

[CaliforniaCylus]

I think you have an hydraulic pump failure on yours and I'd be surprised if any sagging testing is required.

I'm fairly certain it will get a new pump.

This happened to ours a year ago and we had the roof fully elevated on one side and fully down on the other. No permanent damage to any roof components.

I'll find a picture later.

 

[DanKavanagh]

I think you have an hydraulic pump failure on yours and I'd be surprised if any sagging testing is required.

I'm fairly certain it will get a new pump.

This happened to ours a year ago and we had the roof fully elevated on one side and fully down on the other. No permanent damage to any roof components.

I'll find a picture later.

That’s reassuring to hear - thanks very much!


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

[Mansfieldman750]

Here’s ours from 2022 and we also ended up having the pump unit replaced.

 

[dspuk]

We’ve had our 2023 Ocean for about six weeks. It had done 2,000 miles as an ex-Breeze rental when we got it. We’ve had two one-night trips away in it, once before the O3S bellows was replaced with an O6S, and one since then.

We are loving it, and would like to use it more but work is currently very busy - so we’re looking forward to next year and lots of planned trips.

Having done a lot of research, much of it here, before buying - I was aware of the sagging roof issue, but we haven’t been away long enough yet to identify if we have any issues.

Reading this thread, I’m still not sure if it does apply as our ‘wonky roof’ issue happened very quickly while putting the roof down. It is really interesting to read however about the lights in the top not working, as that is now ringing alarm bells.

A relative came to visit from Sheffield on Monday. He has a T2 that they have taken to France every year for the last two decades, and he was keen to see our T6.1 Cali.

It is parked on the drive so we went and gave him a stationary tour; cupboards, tables, chairs, hobs, heater etc. You know the drill.

We put the roof up to show the top bed etc (which we haven’t used yet). I used the control panel to put the pop-top lights on. The passenger side light came on, then flickered and went off, the driver side wouldn’t turn on. I tried the physical switches for both, but neither worked. I made a mental note to check the fuse, and took photos of the lights and control panel thinking I might post for advice here.

After sitting in the van and chatting for half an hour I went to put the roof down, and all appeared to be going smoothly as I started to gather the canvas. At roughly half-way down I paused and asked my wife and relative to do a visual check outside to make sure no canvas was snagged etc.

They went out and shouted that the roof looked seriously uneven. They were right, it didn’t look good. I hadn’t noticed from inside as I was sort of covered in canvas.

Having considered for a couple of minutes, we put the roof back up, and then brought it down - with the others outside checking things. This time it came down evenly.

I sent this photo to Breeze, and it’s going in for a couple of days in a fortnight’s time. I’m not to use the roof before then. I really hope the roof itself, and the scissors/hydraulics aren’t damaged, but the lights not coming on is perhaps an indication that there was an issue?

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Lights not coming on is generally a sag issue. The lights only activate when the roof is fully up. If the roof sags the microswitch that enables the lights becomes open so the roof lights do not work. One assumes they don't need to come down far for this to happen. If your roof was fully up with no sag and the lights did not work it is likely another issue.

 

[Emil]

Mine looked very much like the picture provided by Mansfieldman750, but even worse. All hydraulics were changed without any questions asked.

 

[Begize]

Just to add my two pence worth, you need to make a clear distinction between sagging on one side and sagging uniformly across both.

I had the issue with sag on one side (passenger) on my Sept 2022 RHD Ocean. Initially went up fine, but would drop to the point the roof lights wouldn't come on within 5-10 minutes, sometimes sooner. First time dealer had it in early Jan 2023 for a couple of days and claimed they could find nothing but changed the hydraulic fluid. It happened again as soon as I got it back, so got pictures and was booked in again. Dealer had it a week, did see the problem and swapped the rams claiming it was fixed.

It wasn't - booked in again. This time they had it nearly 3 weeks, swapped the pump, problem still occurred, swapped the pump again. Dealer hadn't seen the issue before and said they had been backwards and forwards to VW tech support, but as I picked up my van, they showed me another with an identical issue and proudly said they knew what to do now. Would appear to be a batch of faulty pumps with a leaking valve, I've read elsewhere that the leak might be caused by bits of metal swarf in the seals.

My issues seems to be fixed. Since then, on one occasion, in very strong prevailing winds from one side, I got a bit of slight sag on that side over the space of two or three days. I've also had an issue where after a few days in 30c + heat, the roof dropped a little on both sides and had to be re-raised but hasn't happened in more "normal" temperatures.

Clearly in my case, the sag on one side and lights not working within a short space of time is not within tolerance and I had no issues with the dealer accepting it once they saw the problem themselves. The VW documents would sound like they are written for customers with a uniform droop over a number of days.

Incidentally, I've never known my roof auto adjust, obviously might have done without me hearing it though.

 

[Dodge1311]

Breeze did some warranty work for us this week.

They did a great job on all of the items but their hands were tied on further dealing with the sagging bellows.

They showed me the TPI and I asked them for a quote for the bleeding work, which is the only work it seems they can do without a technical report to VW.

The problem is frustrating on a new expensive vehicle so I asked them to bleed the system as a chargeable item. It was 1 hour of labour and without some warmer days, I'm not clear when I will know if the problem is fixed or not.

I also saw another frustrated owner on Facebook yesterday:

"Has anyone had the Poptop hydrauliques/pumps etc. replaced on a 6.1? If so, what was the cost? My patience has run out with the continued dropping and malfunction of the dxxn thing. It is unfit for purpose. Ps. other opinions may differ!"

The pump itself is about £1300 including vat without fitting.

 

[CaliforniaCylus]

Well I raised a complaint with VW Customer services and they just quote the TPI verbatim.

Van is in tolerance.

Which, because of the re-inflation, means it has to drop 10 to 20 cms within 5 hours otherwise it will be masked by software re-inflating

Presumably if it meant them actually having to do some work, they'd just tweak the software to pump them up again ever more frequently.

I did get them to bleed the system and I'm mildly optimistic that has fixed it but the weather isn't really warm enough to be certain. But all last year, the lights up top never worked and the sag was up to 6 cms every 5 hours.

I reckon that I'll just keep a tight record of it all and if it's not fixed will pay someone to replace the fluid, flush it or pop a new pump on. I'll then take VW to court to recover the funds.

I've never dealt with a worse company. I don't like the latest California anyway but I'd never buy a VW product again. Funny enough the wife was looking at new T Cross. Needless to say we won't be buying one.

 

[KevH]

Well I raised a complaint with VW Customer services and they just quote the TPI verbatim.

Van is in tolerance.

Which, because of the re-inflation, means it has to drop 10 to 20 cms within 5 hours otherwise it will be masked by software re-inflating

Presumably if it meant them actually having to do some work, they'd just tweak the software to pump them up again ever more frequently.

I did get them to bleed the system and I'm mildly optimistic that has fixed it but the weather isn't really warm enough to be certain. But all last year, the lights up top never worked and the sag was up to 6 cms every 5 hours.

I reckon that I'll just keep a tight record of it all and if it's not fixed will pay someone to replace the fluid, flush it or pop a new pump on. I'll then take VW to court to recover the funds.

I've never dealt with a worse company. I don't like the latest California anyway but I'd never buy a VW product again. Funny enough the wife was looking at new T Cross. Needless to say we won't be buying one.

Similar story with my MY23 Ocean, booked in for 2nd time next week.
What would you say was the single most effective ‘fix’ that has got you to the present point? And how much did it cost you?
VW have definitely dropped a ball on this issue imo.

 

[CaliforniaCylus]

Similar story with my MY23 Ocean, booked in for 2nd time next week.
What would you say was the single most effective ‘fix’ that has got you to the present point? And how much did it cost you?
VW have definitely dropped a ball on this issue imo.

Mine had a catastrophic failure early on and a new pump was put in. I think.

Since then the sagging is more than 20cms over 72 hours but the software just corrects it.

I had Breeze bleed it at my cost and I *think* it might be improved but I won't know until warmer weather arrives.

I tried to take VW Customer care to task to clarify the TPI (see posts above).

Said to them it's either 10 - 20 cms in 72 hours, in which case disable the software correction or what it really means is 10 - 20cms in 5 hours to fail. Which is stupid. If it was falling 19cms in 5 hours, it would still pass their test and the pop-top would be bang on dangerous to sleep under. As it is, the lights go out after a 1cm drop.

But I got nowhere with VW.

My issue may be fixed by bleeding particularly if it wasn't done properly at pump replacement.

If you look at other threads, there are some thoughts that there maybe debris in the system which causes the seals in the pump to leak or perhaps some of the seals themselves aren't perfect. There is also a guy in Bradford who has fixed some of these (see this thread: https://vwcaliforniaclub.com/threads/pop-top-roof-issue.45449/page-2#post-590416)

I just went round and round with VW so if it's still not fixed, I will pay maybe the guy in the post above and try to recover my costs from VW through the courts.

Right now I need some hot weather to see if the bleed addressed it.

I'd recommend you ask the VW garage to see the TPI related to sagging bellows and point out how dumb it is. 72 hours makes no sense to see a 20cm drop when it's auto-correcting all of the time and the first auto-correction will be after 10 hours whilst the van is inside the garage at night. So they won't ever see the drop over 10 hours.

Makes me angry cos it's not working correctly and these Californias aren't some cheap and cheerful van conversion....