Who's daft idea was this?

[Velma's Dad]

You're not gonna like this then Borris...

 

[MattBW]

Jaguar have developed electric drive train that can literally be taken in and out of many classic jags without any modification. Means you can switch it between electric and original engine to your hearts content but keep it original and make it easy to return to original.

I'd rather these things were still driven than relegated to a darkened room because they are polluting.

None destructive electrification I think is a good idea personally.

 

[Borris]

Jaguar have developed electric drive train that can literally be taken in and out of many classic jags without any modification. Means you can switch it between electric and original engine to your hearts content but keep it original and make it easy to return to original.

I'd rather these things were still driven than relegated to a darkened room because they are polluting.

None destructive electrification I think is a good idea personally.

But you aren't going to bother changing engines before you go to the pub on a one of the several sunny Sundays in the year are you? These cars aren't everyday cars, they are expensive weekend toys for the wealthy that on average probably do only a couple of hundred miles a year. In that context classic cars in their original form don't represent a significant polution issue. So back to my original question, what is the point?
And another thing. If you were to electrify an E type it's going to cost you a shed full of cash and to what ends. The E type is a rapidly appreciated classic which I suspect you would be depreciating considerably by doing so.

 

[Borris]

You're not gonna like this then Borris...
View attachment 33445

The expression "dogs dinner" comes to mind!

 

[Velma's Dad]

But you aren't going to bother changing engines before you go to the pub on a one of the several sunny Sundays in the year are you? These cars aren't everyday cars, they are expensive weekend toys for the wealthy that on average probably do only a couple of hundred miles a year. In that context classic cars in their original form don't represent a significant polution issue. So back to my original question, what is the point?
And another thing. If you were to electrify an E type it's going to cost you a shed full of cash and to what ends. The E type is a rapidly appreciated classic which I suspect you would be depreciating considerably by doing so.

Aside from the economics, my presumption was also that the CO2 'cost' of doing the conversion would make the environmental case not worthwhile, given low classic car mileages. But on back-of-envelope, actually it doesn't look too bad. Putting in an electric drivetrain might involve an 'embodied energy cost' of maybe 1,000kg of CO2 (my guesstimate, based on Honda and Toyota saying it's about 2,200kg to build a complete car). Assuming the fossil-powered Jag would cover 2,000 km a year - most classics do less than that actually - the petrol would emit about 700kg of CO2 (365g/km for a Series 1 Jag). Of course electric isn't CO2-free, except maybe in Norway, but still I think the carbon payback on the conversion would be about two years which isn't bad.

But in fact, having to drive an electrified E-Type would be so dispiriting and basically rubbish, that you'd never end up using it at all after converting it. So the carbon payback would look even better then...

 

[Borris]

Aside from the economics, my presumption was also that the CO2 'cost' of doing the conversion would make the environmental case not worthwhile, given low classic car mileages. But on back-of-envelope, actually it doesn't look too bad. Putting in an electric drivetrain might involve an 'embodied energy cost' of maybe 1,000kg of CO2 (my guesstimate, based on Honda and Toyota saying it's about 2,200kg to build a complete car). Assuming the fossil-powered Jag would cover 2,000 km a year - most classics do less than that actually - the petrol would emit about 700kg of CO2 (365g/km for a Series 1 Jag). Of course electric isn't CO2-free, except maybe in Norway, but still I think the carbon payback on the conversion would be about two years which isn't bad.

But in fact, having to drive an electrified E-Type would be so dispiriting and basically rubbish, that you'd never end up using it at all after converting it. So the carbon payback would look even better then...

That's interesting and I'd have no objections to it being done to many other vehicles, preferably modern ones but not an E type. In fact I have always maintained that if we as a Nation really want to be automotively green and do our bit to save the planet then we could lead the way by taking a serious look at recycling vehicles and by that I don't mean scrappage but refurbishment. Many of the vehicles which currently find there way to the breakers are not actually in a bad condition but are scrapped due to their not being economical to run or because of a build up numerous minor issues. The Governments scrappage schemes usually nets many cars that could give many more years of useful service and would be prime candidates for an environmental make over to electric power. Then there's the current British fleet of non EV and hybrids including our own diesel Calis. They are also destined to be driven from our roads by foul means or fair and will get the chop probably sooner rather than later. Whilst not all vehicles would be suitable for conversion there are many that would.
The carbon produced in the recycling and production of new cars must take years to recover even with a new EV or Hybrid car. You wouldn't end up with a new car but many people want to be green but don't have the means to spent the sort of cash that these EVs and Hybrids currently cost. Years ago it was rust that ended the life of many a vehicle but not anymore so it's at least worth a look.

 

[Velma's Dad]

That's interesting and I'd have no objections to it being done to many other vehicles, preferably modern ones but not an E type. In fact I have always maintained that if we as a Nation really want to be automotively green and do our bit to save the planet then we could lead the way by taking a serious look at recycling vehicles and by that I don't mean scrappage but refurbishment. Many of the vehicles which currently find there way to the breakers are not actually in a bad condition but are scrapped due to their not being economical to run or because of a build up numerous minor issues. The Governments scrappage schemes usually nets many cars that could give many more years of useful service and would be prime candidates for an environmental make over to electric power. Then there's the current British fleet of non EV and hybrids including our own diesel Calis. They are also destined to be driven from our roads by foul means or fair and will get the chop probably sooner rather than later. Whilst not all vehicles would be suitable for conversion there are many that would.
The carbon produced in the recycling and production of new cars must take years to recover even with a new EV or Hybrid car. You wouldn't end up with a new car but many people want to be green but don't have the means to spent the sort of cash that these EVs and Hybrids currently cost. Years ago it was rust that ended the life of many a vehicle but not anymore so it's at least worth a look.

Interesting idea. So if we assumed, extremely roughly:
1. Your make-over (retrofit either a modern ultra-low-polluting petrol engine, or an EV pack) has a carbon cost of 1,000kg, maybe. Say it cost £5,000 in money.
2. Emissions for that vehicle hence fall from 150g/km to 50g/km. Say you save 2.5L/100k in fuel consumption.
3. Refurbished vehicle would then have a further 10 year life, doing 15,000km pa.

You'd save 15 tonnes of CO2, for a cost of one tonne. Looks pretty good in carbon terms. In cash terms you'd have saved maybe £5,000 in fuel over that whole ten years, hardly a good return on the same amount spent upfront. So there would have to be a strong government support package if it was going to work.

 

[Skylark2.0]

Most of us will remember the crazy period of phone ring tones. It was big business for a few years. I can see that coming back with 'car tones'. You will be able to buy any real car engine sound and graft it on the 'dumb' electric car. This will have the double effect of informing other road users of ones presence and of course exaggerate the image of the driver. I will let the forum members provide suitable combinations of cars and car tones!

Sleigh bells?

 

[Borris]

Interesting idea. So if we assumed, extremely roughly:
1. Your make-over (retrofit either a modern ultra-low-polluting petrol engine, or an EV pack) has a carbon cost of 1,000kg, maybe. Say it cost £5,000 in money.
2. Emissions for that vehicle hence fall from 150g/km to 50g/km. Say you save 2.5L/100k in fuel consumption.
3. Refurbished vehicle would then have a further 10 year life, doing 15,000km pa.

You'd save 15 tonnes of CO2, for a cost of one tonne. Looks pretty good in carbon terms. In cash terms you'd have saved maybe £5,000 in fuel over that whole ten years, hardly a good return on the same amount spent upfront. So there would have to be a strong government support package if it was going to work.

But surely when compared to the up front costs of a new EV or hybrid car things start to look much more favourable.
Anyway, it's all pie in the sky. I can't see there ever being the will for anything like this. There's too much power invested in the manufacturing of new vehicles and such a scheme would reduce demand.
I agree, that if it were ever tried the whole thing would need to be very well supported in terms of financial incentives to convert instead of scrapping. There would also need to be an extensive infrastructure to enable the mass conversion of existing vehicles which would need to be regulated and monitored. All very expensive to set up but in theory this could provide a good deal of employment. However, unless motor manufacturers were forced to support this system either fully or in part, I can only see them resisting such a scheme.

 

[capt kirk]

I suspect it was a loan car to showcase this new recreation/abomination.

Old ,New,Borrowed?,And blue.

 

[Paul S]

I don’t see what all this fuss is about. Typical classic car journey is well within the range of most EV conversions. No mess, better reliability, better acceleration. As a “toy” rather than a daily hack what’s not to like? A huge amount of rose-tint here IMHO about “wonderful” old cars. I’ve been around long enough to have tinkered with plenty of old stuff and contrary to how I thought as a 17 year old now I say give me computer controlled fuel injection over a carburettor any day. In modern traffic the excitement of many a classic is will it get where I want to go. And having been stuck behind a cavalcade of such cars recently I can only say you may not have noticed it but overall air quality has got substantially better even if specific elements sprewed by diesels are worse than ever. 15 minutes behind an original E with overly rich mixture will soon have you praying for it to be powered by a washing machine motor. Change will come anyway whether we like it or not.

 

[Velma's Dad]

A huge amount of rose-tint here IMHO about “wonderful” old cars. I’ve been around long enough to have tinkered with plenty of old stuff and contrary to how I thought as a 17 year old now I say give me computer controlled fuel injection over a carburettor any day.

That's fine but allow me to say it completely misses the point. If you don't want to get dirty hands (or at least keep a cheque book permanently open) well obviously don't have a classic car. But most classic geeks actually do like getting their hands dirty, they like comparing notes with other owners to fix a problem, they love fettling an old rescued part to make it fit. One old Triumph owner I know has the engine to bits on the bench several times a year, and that makes him as happy as a pig in sh*t.

As far as driving them is concerned, the fun (IMHO) actually comes from the absence of things that make modern cars so easy and utterly dull to drive. Like power steering, synchromesh gears, and tyres more than 4 inches wide. Boring boring boring.

 

[Borris]

I don’t see what all this fuss is about. Typical classic car journey is well within the range of most EV conversions. No mess, better reliability, better acceleration. As a “toy” rather than a daily hack what’s not to like? A huge amount of rose-tint here IMHO about “wonderful” old cars. I’ve been around long enough to have tinkered with plenty of old stuff and contrary to how I thought as a 17 year old now I say give me computer controlled fuel injection over a carburettor any day. In modern traffic the excitement of many a classic is will it get where I want to go. And having been stuck behind a cavalcade of such cars recently I can only say you may not have noticed it but overall air quality has got substantially better even if specific elements sprewed by diesels are worse than ever. 15 minutes behind an original E with overly rich mixture will soon have you praying for it to be powered by a washing machine motor. Change will come anyway whether we like it or not.

If you don't get it, then you probably never will.

 

[BikerGran]

I am a dinosaur.

I believe the once revered name of Jaguar has already been so totally sullied by the fact that you can buy a family estate car with a diesel engine that bears the Jaguar badge, that it really doesn't matter any more.

 

[motacyclist]

Porsche too, putting the their badge on SUV's that look like squashed pasties!

Not to mention Bentley & Rolls Royce getting in on the SUV boat!

At least Porsche have ditched the diesel ...

 

[Velma's Dad]

Car makers have often milked those sporting/classic marques (look at what happened to MG). But I think it's a shame to dismiss the original thoroughbreds just because the brand was later 'badge-engineered' onto some dismal hatchback.