Club Joker starter battery

[Glenhyrst]

I have been concerned about the speedy decline in my starter battery’s voltage whilst sat on my drive unused when it drops 0.1v every 2 days and can now add solid data to my previous posts on this matter.

This voltage drop means that when not frequently used, I would need to charge the battery approximately every week. This seems excessive to me.

I had the VW garage take a look at it under warranty – it’s 8 months old – and the technician said there was nothing amiss and in particular no evidence of a parasitic loss.

Following this I purchased a BM2 monitor and after charging the battery for 24 hours, ceasing at 4.30pm on July 10th, the graph shows a fall from 12.82v to 12.47v in the 24hrs to 8.00am today.

I’m guessing I have a faulty battery?

 

[Ch1pbutty]

Here is an old log of our Beach with a healthy leisure battery - drops to 12.39 - your reading seems normal; wouldn’t worry unless you experience any issues starting:

 

[Glenhyrst]

Here is an old log of our Beach with a healthy leisure battery - drops to 12.39 - your reading seems normal; wouldn’t worry unless you experience any issues starting:

View attachment 126142

I have found battery technology surprisingly hard to comprehend. Injunctions to charge battery when it drops to around 12.4v and warnings that if drops too low, battery can self-destruct don't seem to fit well with my starter battery dropping so quickly from fully charged to a bordeline need to recharge in abour 2 days.
Makes me wonder what fully charged at around 12.6v+ means if in so short a time and whilst seemingly doing nothing barring I guess some minor background checks, it loses 0.2v.
Why bother "fully charging" if it lasts so short a time?
Save construction costs and just make to attain 12.4v?
What's a day or two difference going to make.
Are your leisure batteries doing anything to produce the results you give?

 

[Ch1pbutty]

I have found battery technology surprisingly hard to comprehend. Injunctions to charge battery when it drops to around 12.4v and warnings that if drops too low, battery can self-destruct don't seem to fit well with my starter battery dropping so quickly from fully charged to a bordeline need to recharge in abour 2 days.
Makes me wonder what fully charged at around 12.6v+ means if in so short a time and whilst seemingly doing nothing barring I guess some minor background checks, it loses 0.2v.
Why bother "fully charging" if it lasts so short a time?
Save construction costs and just make to attain 12.4v?
What's a day or two difference going to make.
Are your leisure batteries doing anything to produce the results you give?

No longer have the Beach, but fridge was left running 24/7 for 3 years, never needed EHU as we had solar panels. I get the train to work 5 days a week so van only really used at weekends.

 

[Barry Chuckle]

Is the Joker the same as the Sven in terms of EHU charge? I can leave mine plugged into EHU and it trickle charges the starter battery when the leisure batteries are full. Really handy as my battery runs down pretty quickly too, I'm not technical but I find it runs down quicker when I go in an out of the van a few times.

 

[Glenhyrst]

No longer have the Beach, but fridge was left running 24/7 for 3 years, never needed EHU as we had solar panels. I get the train to work 5 days a week so van only really used at weekends.

But my starter battery isn't even connected to the tracker. Not sure about the alarm. Certainly not a fridge which presumably explains the drop you see in your previous van.
It seems to my "common sense", always a dangerous thing I know, that so precipitous a voltage drop after charging needs an explanation. Why charge it beyond that level to which it drops almost overnight? The Greens will surely go spare if they knew I was wasting energy in this fashion.
Maybe I should get a solar panel to avoid or reduce the risk of a non-starting starter?
If so, which one?

 

[Glenhyrst]

Is the Joker the same as the Sven in terms of EHU charge? I can leave mine plugged into EHU and it trickle charges the starter battery when the leisure batteries are full. Really handy as my battery runs down pretty quickly too, I'm not technical but I find it runs down quicker when I go in an out of the van a few times.

My BM2 reveals a 0.2v drop in voltage each time a door is opened although this seems to recover over a short period. Until I'd established this, opening a door to open the bonnet gave misleading lower than actual voltage readings.
As for charging on EHU, the Joker booklet says it does, Westfalia says "sorry, it doesn't since a change by VW in 2021 made this impossible" and the local VW techie says it does.
I have not so far found any evidence of starter battery charging when on EHU.
I sometimes wonder whether to intelligent battery management fitted to this van is so intelligent that it spots when I am coming for it and deliberately misleads me.
My seemingly obsessive interest in batteries began with losing a battery in my caravan, despite being on EHU because the charger in the caravan had self-destructed
Then Wandahome made a pig's ear of the two leisure batteries in the Joker - a long tale.
And so my pre-occupation with the starter battery which to me does not seem right. But apparently might be.
If the former, I'll have to live with it. If the latter, I'd like it fixed.
But which?
PS disconnecting the EHU is relatively easy cf opening door and bonnet, removing charger from engine bay and putting all away before driving off. OK, a 1st World problem I know, but in the depths of winter, an unecessary pain in the neck, I think. Perhaps I should get my butler to do it?
PPS and I'm still not sure that the leisures are charged by the alternator. Another story.

 

[Ch1pbutty]

Is the Joker the same as the Sven in terms of EHU charge? I can leave mine plugged into EHU and it trickle charges the starter battery when the leisure batteries are full. Really handy as my battery runs down pretty quickly too, I'm not technical but I find it runs down quicker when I go in an out of the van a few times.

Yes, (2015 Joker) charges both on EHU - ours only has 1 leisure battery. Was thinking of a solar panel as had them on the Beach…but not had any issues yet with a low battery so it’s not at the top of the list…and haven’t really found a neat solution yet that doesn’t look DIY. That said we don’t use that much power as tend to be out and about more when away.

 

[m10chkcalifornia]

My BM2 reveals a 0.2v drop in voltage each time a door is opened although this seems to recover over a short period. Until I'd established this, opening a door to open the bonnet gave misleading lower than actual voltage readings.
As for charging on EHU, the Joker booklet says it does, Westfalia says "sorry, it doesn't since a change by VW in 2021 made this impossible" and the local VW techie says it does.
I have not so far found any evidence of starter battery charging when on EHU.
I sometimes wonder whether to intelligent battery management fitted to this van is so intelligent that it spots when I am coming for it and deliberately misleads me.
My seemingly obsessive interest in batteries began with losing a battery in my caravan, despite being on EHU because the charger in the caravan had self-destructed
Then Wandahome made a pig's ear of the two leisure batteries in the Joker - a long tale.
And so my pre-occupation with the starter battery which to me does not seem right. But apparently might be.
If the former, I'll have to live with it. If the latter, I'd like it fixed.
But which?
PS disconnecting the EHU is relatively easy cf opening door and bonnet, removing charger from engine bay and putting all away before driving off. OK, a 1st World problem I know, but in the depths of winter, an unecessary pain in the neck, I think. Perhaps I should get my butler to do it?
PPS and I'm still not sure that the leisures are charged by the alternator. Another story.

Voltage is not the only or even the definitive indicator of battery condition. However your starter battery - assuming there is no load on it- is settling at too low a value. I would really expect it to stabilise at 12.6 - 12.8 v. That suggests the battery is faulty. Probably has one defective cell.

It may not matter - it may simply be a matter of settling at lower than an ideal voltage but nevertheless having sufficient charge capacity to crank the engine etc. But if it concerns you why not swap out the starter battery for a new one. Compared to the cost of the vehicle - and the mental angst this is causing you! - a new battery would seem a cheap option.

 

[Glenhyrst]

Voltage is not the only or even the definitive indicator of battery condition. However your starter battery - assuming there is no load on it- is settling at too low a value. I would really expect it to stabilise at 12.6 - 12.8 v. That suggests the battery is faulty. Probably has one defective cell.

It may not matter - it may simply be a matter of settling at lower than an ideal voltage but nevertheless having sufficient charge capacity to crank the engine etc. But if it concerns you why not swap out the starter battery for a new one. Compared to the cost of the vehicle - and the mental angst this is causing you! - a new battery would seem a cheap option.

Thanks for that and I may resort to it if VW do not come back to me with a fix/new battery.
It's certainly my view that the battery is at fault. But I might well not have believed Galileo when he declared the earth not to be the centre of the universe. The obvious isn't always so.
And it is still under warranty.

 

[Ch1pbutty]

I have found battery technology surprisingly hard to comprehend. Injunctions to charge battery when it drops to around 12.4v and warnings that if drops too low, battery can self-destruct don't seem to fit well with my starter battery dropping so quickly from fully charged to a bordeline need to recharge in abour 2 days.
Makes me wonder what fully charged at around 12.6v+ means if in so short a time and whilst seemingly doing nothing barring I guess some minor background checks, it loses 0.2v.
Why bother "fully charging" if it lasts so short a time?
Save construction costs and just make to attain 12.4v?
What's a day or two difference going to make.
Are your leisure batteries doing anything to produce the results you give?

The voltage peaks at 14.5 when the solar is charging, then dropped to 13ish when battery wss fully charged / float then becomes a low trickle charge…it then gets dark so no charge and battery then rests / settles at +12.4v. It was a Beach so only one leisure battery.

If you have an Ocean, my understanding is that the van display is not that accurate.

For me the true test was that fridge ran 24/7 which could be monitored by the Dometic fridge app & the van started when I turned the key.

 

[Glenhyrst]

The voltage peaks at 14.5 when the solar is charging, then dropped to 13ish when battery wss fully charged / float then becomes a low trickle charge…it then gets dark so no charge and battery then rests / settles at +12.4v. It was a Beach so only one leisure battery.

If you have an Ocean, my understanding is that the van display is not that accurate.

For me the true test was that fridge ran 24/7 which could be monitored by the Dometic fridge app & the van started when I turned the key.

"Settles at 12.4v" or fridge drains it to that level? before sun comes up and solar charges it back up again. In my case, the battery voltage drops very quickly to around that same level under no significant load before settling down to a more more modest 0.1v drop every 2 days.
My expectation is that a new car battery in an unused vehicle should not ordinarily need charging more than about once a month. That I could live with.

 

[m10chkcalifornia]

The voltage peaks at 14.5 when the solar is charging, then dropped to 13ish when battery wss fully charged / float then becomes a low trickle charge…it then gets dark so no charge and battery then rests / settles at +12.4v. It was a Beach so only one leisure battery.

If you have an Ocean, my understanding is that the van display is not that accurate.

For me the true test was that fridge ran 24/7 which could be monitored by the Dometic fridge app & the van started when I turned the key.

But OP is talking about a starter battery which he has confirmed does not have any drain on it and which from fully charged declines to 12.4 v within 2 days. That is outside of normal spec, and not the performance of a healthy 12V lead acid battery. I just went and measured my 24 month old starter battery. It has been sitting for 2 days and I will presume it was fully charged because we got back from a longish drive. It is sitting at 12.75V.

 

[WelshGas]

Is the Joker the same as the Sven in terms of EHU charge? I can leave mine plugged into EHU and it trickle charges the starter battery when the leisure batteries are full. Really handy as my battery runs down pretty quickly too, I'm not technical but I find it runs down quicker when I go in an out of the van a few times.

Every time a modern vehicle is unlocked the electronics wake up, even more so if drivers door is opened.

 

[Glenhyrst]

Every time a modern vehicle is unlocked the electronics wake up, even more so if drivers door is opened.

Absolutely and hence my resorting to the BM2. Can monitor externally - no doors opened, nothing activated. Ipad reveals voltage over time.

 

[m10chkcalifornia]

Absolutely and hence my resorting to the BM2. Can monitor externally - no doors opened, nothing activated. Ipad reveals voltage over time.

I suppose the ultimate belt and braces test would be to disconnect the battery from the vehicle, charge it and monitor the voltage whilst completely disconnected from any load. If it drops to below 12.4V in a few days I would say its a gonner. Should be a warranty replacement I guess given the age of the vehical and battery. Not sure how happy the various electronic systems are with a complete battery disconnect (I remember I had a problem with my Golf once but that was because the steering wheel had moved following disconnection and the steering angle sensor needed resetting. Not terrible but a pain. The solution to that is to source any old 12v battery and use it as the power source for the vehicle whilst your starter battery is under test.

 

[Webbah_in_Switzerland]

Absolutely and hence my resorting to the BM2. Can monitor externally - no doors opened, nothing activated. Ipad reveals voltage over time.

Newer VW’s have systems that use some power. They ‘check in” with the VW servers to synchronize, etc. if you check the VW app it will also synchronize to show you the related data. I suspect your battery is fine and you are hunting down a problem that doesn’t exist. This isn’t a classic car where once you remove the key the battery sits completely idle. There are numerous systems that occasionally draw power which although small will appear like what you call parasitic drain.


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[Glenhyrst]

Newer VW’s have systems that use some power. They ‘check in” with the VW servers to synchronize, etc. if you check the VW app it will also synchronize to show you the related data. I suspect your battery is fine and you are hunting down a problem that doesn’t exist. This isn’t a classic car where once you remove the key the battery sits completely idle. There are numerous systems that occasionally draw power which although small will appear like what you call parasitic drain.


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Thanks to those who have responded to my posts.

It would seem that favoured views are:

1) The battery is at fault – perhaps a failed cell. Solution to change battery or tolerate it until it ceases to function. And if battery not at fault, renewing it will not solve the problem.

2) Nothing amiss – I’m seeing a problem where none exists. The decline in voltage is to be expected in modern systems

Both options means that for the time being at least, I will need to charge the starter battery every week or two. This seems over the top to me. Ridiculous in fact, to the point that had I known this before purchasing, I would not have bought it. I bought it to use for pleasure, not be a slave to it.

Option 2) would be more believable if one could explain the non-linear drop in voltage with the relatively large drop immediately after a full charge.

What in the modern vehicular systems would feel the need to significant deplete the battery in the first day or two after a full charge (see graph above), before then dropping by 0.1v/2 days?

 

[The Merle]

So VW checked battery all fine battery sits around 12.4v which is fine, how many times you had a flat starter bat in the few months of ownership? I’m sure you would have said if you have.
I know you had a small issue with leisure bat fuse and possible bad service from your dealer but it does sound like you are trying to find problems and not enjoying van.
Solution sell or get on and enjoy. If you can’t start it then you have VW assist!

 

[Webbah_in_Switzerland]

Thanks to those who have responded to my posts.

It would seem that favoured views are:

1) The battery is at fault – perhaps a failed cell. Solution to change battery or tolerate it until it ceases to function. And if battery not at fault, renewing it will not solve the problem.

2) Nothing amiss – I’m seeing a problem where none exists. The decline in voltage is to be expected in modern systems

Both options means that for the time being at least, I will need to charge the starter battery every week or two. This seems over the top to me. Ridiculous in fact, to the point that had I known this before purchasing, I would not have bought it. I bought it to use for pleasure, not be a slave to it.

Option 2) would be more believable if one could explain the non-linear drop in voltage with the relatively large drop immediately after a full charge.

What in the modern vehicular systems would feel the need to significant deplete the battery in the first day or two after a full charge (see graph above), before then dropping by 0.1v/2 days?

You are assuming you need to charge it every 2 weeks. Has it ever gone flat and failed to start? Again, it appears you are looking for issues rather than enjoying the van. If this is something you cannot get over then don’t buy any modern car. Sell it and buy a classic without any modern systems. And then deal with the real issues of classic cars. If a real problem crops up or it truly fails to start VW assist is a phone call away to help.


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[m10chkcalifornia]

You are assuming you need to charge it every 2 weeks. Has it ever gone flat and failed to start? Again, it appears you are looking for issues rather than enjoying the van. If this is something you cannot get over then don’t buy any modern car. Sell it and buy a classic without any modern systems. And then deal with the real issues of classic cars. If a real problem crops up or it truly fails to start VW assist is a phone call away to help.


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An unnecessarily aggressive response .... "don't buy any modern car". Come off it. The OP has a very legitimate concern. Every source I have seen describes a lead acid battery at or below 12.4V as being substantially discharged and at risk of degradation if not charged up. If there is no substantial drain on the battery - and that has been checked and there isn't - then this is indicative of a faulty battery.

 

[The Merle]

An unnecessarily aggressive response .... "don't buy any modern car". Come off it. The OP has a very legitimate concern. Every source I have seen describes a lead acid battery at or below 12.4V as being substantially discharged and at risk of degradation if not charged up. If there is no substantial drain on the battery - and that has been checked and there isn't - then this is indicative of a faulty battery.

There’s an after market alarm fitted and vw have tested battery, the guy has 2yr warranty with road side assist and all he does is sit on a forum trying to find fault with the van. Clearly unhappy with it and needs to get on and enjoy or sell.

Webbah has owned joker for years and I’ve had them for 4 1/2yrs, with over 1500nights away!
We/vw/westfalia are all trying to help the guy but little joy

 

[Glenhyrst]

There’s an after market alarm fitted and vw have tested battery, the guy has 2yr warranty with road side assist and all he does is sit on a forum trying to find fault with the van. Clearly unhappy with it and needs to get on and enjoy or sell.

Webbah has owned joker for years and I’ve had them for 4 1/2yrs, with over 1500nights away!
We/vw/westfalia are all trying to help the guy but little joy

Not sure what I have said to deserve such opprobrium. In the words of the late Bernard Bresslaw “I Only Arsked!”.
I am not searching for problems, nor is it the case that “all he does is sit on a forum trying to find fault with the van”. Absolute rubbish.
And I am not unhappy with the Joker nor desirous of selling it.
But if there is a problem with the starter battery, I would like to resolve it. Is that not what any sensible person would do?
And jolly good on you spending 1500 nights away in your Joker.
Not sure how that is an answer to my query. Please feel free to elaborate.

 

[Webbah_in_Switzerland]

Not sure what I have said to deserve such opprobrium. In the words of the late Bernard Bresslaw “I Only Arsked!”.
I am not searching for problems, nor is it the case that “all he does is sit on a forum trying to find fault with the van”. Absolute rubbish.
And I am not unhappy with the Joker nor desirous of selling it.
But if there is a problem with the starter battery, I would like to resolve it. Is that not what any sensible person would do?
And jolly good on you spending 1500 nights away in your Joker.
Not sure how that is an answer to my query. Please feel free to elaborate.

Once again, have you seen the flashing battery icon on your dashboard indicating a battery issue? I suspect no. Please find below some data from mine which is a high end Odyssey Performance AGM which I assure you has no bad cells or issues. Settles around 12.4-12.5 volts which is totally normal and nothing to worry about.

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[Glenhyrst]

Once again, have you seen the flashing battery icon on your dashboard indicating a battery issue? I suspect no. Please find below some data from mine which is a high end Odyssey Performance AGM which I assure you has no bad cells or issues. Settles around 12.4-12.5 volts which is totally normal and nothing to worry about.

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Sorry, not seen any flashing light.
Thanks for your pic. Your voltage levels do seem at odds with what I read elsewhere, and which informs my possible over-concern. Statements such as at 12.4 the battery starts to sulphate and need to charge it.
5 days ago I fully charged my starter battery. The following morning it showed 12.79v. The readings after subsequent 24hr periods were 12.45v, 12.34v, 12.29v and today, 12.25v.
I would not be at all surprised it the engine started BUT at what point should I say it ought to be charged again, to avoid permanent damage? If now, that implies a need to charge every 5 days. Does that seem right to you?
And OK, the background electrics consume some power, but why the initial relatively steep drop? Is there any reason why, in the days following a full charge, the load on the battery should rise?
Or is it more likely the case that the battery cannot retain a full charge for very long?
If it settled as yours has done at 12.4-12.5v, I would not be concerned.
And thanks for your help.