Another Club Joker electrical issue

[Glenhyrst]

Gets more intriguing! Just did another check and on Hook Up my starter battery voltage definitely goes up, to 13v plus. And my VIN number shows “M” as the year which is 2021. Await your VW visit, good luck!

Thanks to those who responded. Just got back from VW and spoke with technician. Apparently all as it should be. I guess if I airport-parked and cleared off for 3 weeks, I should not come back and expect it to start. All the attached background electrical activity to blame.
So I can switch off searching for a possible flaw and switch on semi-permanent battery charging.
As to whether the starter battery receives a charge on EHU, he says it will, but only once the system detects the leisure batteries needs have been dealt with. He was dismissive of Westfalia's saying that there was a VW change in 2021 that disabled this option.
He and his associates liked the van - "don't see many of these".

 

[ArunAlec]

Thanks to those who responded. Just got back from VW and spoke with technician. Apparently all as it should be. I guess if I airport-parked and cleared off for 3 weeks, I should not come back and expect it to start. All the attached background electrical activity to blame.
So I can switch off searching for a possible flaw and switch on semi-permanent battery charging.
As to whether the starter battery receives a charge on EHU, he says it will, but only once the system detects the leisure batteries needs have been dealt with. He was dismissive of Westfalia's saying that there was a VW change in 2021 that disabled this option.
He and his associates liked the van - "don't see many of these".

Out of curiosity I’m going to see if/what the voltage drop on mine is over 24 hours .

 

[Ch1pbutty]

Out of curiosity I’m going to see if/what the voltage drop on mine is over 24 hours .

Ours (T5.1) is minimal - no issues, we only have 1 leisure battery. Think both batteries still original so 9 years old.

 

[TripleBee]

Thanks to those who responded. Just got back from VW and spoke with technician. Apparently all as it should be. I guess if I airport-parked and cleared off for 3 weeks, I should not come back and expect it to start. All the attached background electrical activity to blame.
So I can switch off searching for a possible flaw and switch on semi-permanent battery charging.
As to whether the starter battery receives a charge on EHU, he says it will, but only once the system detects the leisure batteries needs have been dealt with. He was dismissive of Westfalia's saying that there was a VW change in 2021 that disabled this option.
He and his associates liked the van - "don't see many of these".

As you will have start/stop and "bluemotion technology", your starter battery will never be fully charged while driving. For environmental purposes, your van will only charge the battery(ies) while slowing down. While driving it will keep the voltage around 12,3V.
If you put away your van for a couple of weeks without the battery charged to 100%, you will find a bigger loss of capacity than on my van without that system.
You should try to completely charge your battery and try to find out if it keeps it's capacity for a longer time than when you just drive the van.

 

[Glenhyrst]

As you will have start/stop and "bluemotion technology", your starter battery will never be fully charged while driving. For environmental purposes, your van will only charge the battery(ies) while slowing down. While driving it will keep the voltage around 12,3V.
If you put away your van for a couple of weeks without the battery charged to 100%, you will find a bigger loss of capacity than on my van without that system.
You should try to completely charge your battery and try to find out if it keeps it's capacity for a longer time than when you just drive the van.

I think my brain needs charging up too! My van is only occasionally used and others have said this lack of use contributes to/causes my starter battery apparent problem.
But I do charge it up fully whilst it's sat on my drive and the drop in voltage detailed in previous posts is what I get after the full charge.
As far as I see it, given its only occasional use, I have to have it continuously hooked up to the mains with cable across my drive or perhaps connect up overnight every 3 or 4 days. Deeply discharging batteries being not a good thing.
What a farce! And told that's what I can expect. 60 years of motorbikes and cars various and never had anything approaching this before. Hard to believe that the background energy consumption has to have so dramatic effect.
Yet other posters give me the impression that perhaps this is not as it should be.

 

[Webbah_in_Switzerland]

I think my brain needs charging up too! My van is only occasionally used and others have said this lack of use contributes to/causes my starter battery apparent problem.
But I do charge it up fully whilst it's sat on my drive and the drop in voltage detailed in previous posts is what I get after the full charge.
As far as I see it, given its only occasional use, I have to have it continuously hooked up to the mains with cable across my drive or perhaps connect up overnight every 3 or 4 days. Deeply discharging batteries being not a good thing.
What a farce! And told that's what I can expect. 60 years of motorbikes and cars various and never had anything approaching this before. Hard to believe that the background energy consumption has to have so dramatic effect.
Yet other posters give me the impression that perhaps this is not as it should be.

Do you often open the VW app? That wakes up the systems and uses the starter battery. I've changed my charging profile from the eco-friendly "fleece" which is AGM to Lithium even though my batteery is AGM for the starter. I'm sure many here will balk and say that's going to damage my battery but I fully disagree. I've worked with my mechanic on this and for many years before all this eco smart BMS crap alternators charged batteries just fine. This profile charges at full power 14.2 volts and doesn't matter if idle, driving or coasting unlike the other profiles. That said, I do have a very high end AGM battery (Odysee Performance 95Ah) https://odysseybatteries.com/odyssey/ps49_950.html

This battery accepts a charge of 14.2-14.4 volts no issue and has an internal BMS to prevent overcharge. I have zero issues with this setup.

My mechanic has now been recoding all of his rentals with factory OEM AGM's to use the Lithium charge profile as well and hasn't had any issues either and with this profile the starter batteries get fully charged with a short drive.

I was hesitant to post this as I suspect I will get people bashing this but these smart charging systems are more for eco-friendly stuff more than anything. Another hack if you don't want to go this route is to turn on a seat heater which will force the alternator on while driving.

 

[Glenhyrst]

Do you often open the VW app? That wakes up the systems and uses the starter battery. I've changed my charging profile from the eco-friendly "fleece" which is AGM to Lithium even though my batteery is AGM for the starter. I'm sure many here will balk and say that's going to damage my battery but I fully disagree. I've worked with my mechanic on this and for many years before all this eco smart BMS crap alternators charged batteries just fine. This profile charges at full power 14.2 volts and doesn't matter if idle, driving or coasting unlike the other profiles. That said, I do have a very high end AGM battery (Odysee Performance 95Ah) https://odysseybatteries.com/odyssey/ps49_950.html

This battery accepts a charge of 14.2-14.4 volts no issue and has an internal BMS to prevent overcharge. I have zero issues with this setup.

My mechanic has now been recoding all of his rentals with factory OEM AGM's to use the Lithium charge profile as well and hasn't had any issues either and with this profile the starter batteries get fully charged with a short drive.

I was hesitant to post this as I suspect I will get people bashing this but these smart charging systems are more for eco-friendly stuff more than anything. Another hack if you don't want to go this route is to turn on a seat heater which will force the alternator on while driving.

VW app? No idea what that is. I’ll speak with one of the grandkids about it.

 

[Webbah_in_Switzerland]

VW app? No idea what that is. I’ll speak with one of the grandkids about it.

It’s the app for your smartphone to connect to the van and remote lock/unlock, check vehicle health and driving data, etc.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Glenhyrst]

It’s the app for your smartphone to connect to the van and remote lock/unlock, check vehicle health and driving data, etc.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Oh dear. First I've heard of this option. Neither my old Nokia nor its user can be called smart.

 

[Webbah_in_Switzerland]

Oh dear. First I've heard of this option. Neither my old Nokia nor its user can be called smart.

An old Nokia is a prize possession! And I wouldn't discount your IQ as you've approached this in a scientific way evaluating data from measurements, etc.

The Club Joker is really a great van and base to start from. Don't fall into a trap that takes away from the enjoyment of owning such a rare van (production has ended) while showing off that Nokia at the campsites!

 

[m10chkcalifornia]

An interesting and informative thread. I now know more about the charging arrangements between leisure and starter batteries!
@Glenhyrst - I think you have probably resolved the fundamental question (whether there is a ‘fault’ - seems not). You are concerned that your van will be unusable if left, due to inherent battery discharge? You have very sensibly and carefully taken readings and looked at the theory of voltage vs. state of charge, and that has added to your concerns.
I went down a similar path with a VW golf a few years back - got myself in a right spin. A bit of insight from that. The electrics on modern vehicles are pretty sophisticated and can often confuse and confound even the best informed. For example, unlocking, without even putting key in ignition, kicks lots of things into life. There can be a draw of several amps on the battery. These things then typically time out after a few minutes. The same can happen upon locking.
Two implications . First you can often be measuring voltage under load conditions rather than unloaded as intended. Second your concern can add to the problem! Lots of going to vehicle to test the voltage (locking and unlocking) will actually discharge the battery much more than if it was just left sitting.
So a suggestion - try a bit of pure experimentation. If you have the chance - lock and forget for a reasonable time (reasonable in terns of hiw long you will leave the van). Then just hop in and see if it starts ok. If it does, relax and enjoy. (And try not to think of auto electrics again!)

 

[Glenhyrst]

An old Nokia is a prize possession! And I wouldn't discount your IQ as you've approached this in a scientific way evaluating data from measurements, etc.

The Club Joker is really a great van and base to start from. Don't fall into a trap that takes away from the enjoyment of owning such a rare van (production has ended) while showing off that Nokia at the campsites!

 

[Glenhyrst]

You are too kind! I've just looked at the App store on my ipad and see several apps linked to VW.
Could it be the Diag-VW app that I need?

 

[Glenhyrst]

An interesting and informative thread. I now know more about the charging arrangements between leisure and starter batteries!
@Glenhyrst - I think you have probably resolved the fundamental question (whether there is a ‘fault’ - seems not). You are concerned that your van will be unusable if left, due to inherent battery discharge? You have very sensibly and carefully taken readings and looked at the theory of voltage vs. state of charge, and that has added to your concerns.
I went down a similar path with a VW golf a few years back - got myself in a right spin. A bit of insight from that. The electrics on modern vehicles are pretty sophisticated and can often confuse and confound even the best informed. For example, unlocking, without even putting key in ignition, kicks lots of things into life. There can be a draw of several amps on the battery. These things then typically time out after a few minutes. The same can happen upon locking.
Two implications . First you can often be measuring voltage under load conditions rather than unloaded as intended. Second your concern can add to the problem! Lots of going to vehicle to test the voltage (locking and unlocking) will actually discharge the battery much more than if it was just left sitting.
So a suggestion - try a bit of pure experimentation. If you have the chance - lock and forget for a reasonable time (reasonable in terns of hiw long you will leave the van). Then just hop in and see if it starts ok. If it does, relax and enjoy. (And try not to think of auto electrics again!)

Thanks. I've had the same feelings myself. A bit like routine PET scans finding much that is of little importance but risks overtreatment.
In my defence, what provoked this was a real failure of parallet connection of the 2 leisure batteries that took a lot of time travelling too and from the vendor until eventually it was resolved after replacing x2 blown 80amp fuses. That and the stop/start not working, eventually found (by me, not the vendor) to be due to a cable to the battery positive pole not being connected.
So yes, it has pushed me to check and recheck.
An over-thinking brain and a need to understand the why and how of everything can be a curse!

 

[m10chkcalifornia]

You are too kind! I've just looked at the App store on my ipad and see several apps linked to VW.
Could it be the Diag-VW app that I need?

The App is just called Volkswagen. The description of it reads “The app for your Volkswagen”. There are lots of third party apps to do all sorts of things but that is the one that uses Connect to remotely access your van. I really like thar you can check whether it is locked (being of a certain age, a certain forgetfulness and a certain paranoia!!).

 

[ArunAlec]

Out of curiosity I’m going to see if/what the voltage drop on mine is over 24 hours .

0.01v drop over 24 hours.

 

[Glenhyrst]

0.01v drop over 24 hours.

Not sure where I go from here. I can't believe mine was built to need charging at least once a week when not in use. Or is yours the malfunctioning one?
Out of interest, I've had it on EHU for the past 24hrs and am surprised at the low power consumption. I have a monitor on the power supply. It has recorded a min of 9w input and max of 10.5w after the initial short-lived leap to around 20w on powering up.
That compares with around 7w input when the van's 12v isolator switch is turned off.
I can't imagine that at this level of input anything is being significantly charged-up, not even my domestic electricity bill.
I'd get as much sense out of staring at my own umbilicus all day.