Advice - Cali vs Conv

[louisdevenny]

Apologies in advance, although this question may well have been answered many, many times.

Family of 3 (myself (29) Wife (34) and Son (3))… and 2 dogs. Currently live overseas, returning in approx. 12 months. Wife and I both into the ‘Campervan’ idea and have plenty of experience with camping and exploring; having previously and recently spent the best part of 5 years living around Scotland. Also, childhood and youth camping throughout N-Wales and Cornwall.

Apart from the obvious money savings/differences, we are unsure whether to peruse a new California (Coast, most likely) or consider a Conversion; which would undoubtedly be financed at the most affordable (lowest) monthly repayments.

Please could someone with knowledge and experience (of both options, ideally) provide me the simplest breakdown/Pros and Cons of either?

To note, unless our financial situation took an unexpected turn, we would see this purchase as a long term investment.

Thank you to all - I appreciate your time.

 

[Wildcamper]

There is loads of stuff on this topic on this site and others. There is no right answer except the one that works for you. Firstly I suggest you decide what the "must haves" are and then the "would likes" and finally the "that would be nice". Then look at the Cali specs, how close to your list can you get and is the price acceptable. You will certainly have to compromise, are you happy with the compromise v price? In my opinion the big plus of a conversion is that you can, within reason, get what you want and not just what VW want to give you. However, if going conversion do your homework. There are excellent converters and very poor converters. Look for evidence that any conversion is crash certified and covered by a decent warranty. Some converters are VW approved, I suggest you start with them. In our case we went conversion as for us the Cali did not give what we wanted. We did not save much by going conversion but we have exactly what we want. For many the Cali is a great choice - but not us.

 

[hirsty]

You're right - many, many times ... As this is primarily a California forum the answers almost always lean to 'buy a Cali' for obvious reasons. You will get some predictable sniffy comments about grey carpet on the walls, but to me it's all horses-for-courses.

I've had both - I bought a 2009 T5 conversion first, which in hindsight wasn't all that well done, but it confirmed that I wanted to own this type of vehicle long-term, so I saved up the difference and bought a zero-miles preregistered 2016 T6 California to replace it.

There may the odd exception from some of the established very top-end conversion firms, but from a depreciation & resale perspective the factory van will always come out way ahead.

 

[Wildcamper]

You're right - many, many times ... As this is primarily a California forum the answers almost always lean to 'buy a Cali' for obvious reasons. You will get some predictable sniffy comments about grey carpet on the walls, but to me it's all horses-for-courses.

I've had both - I bought a 2009 T5 conversion first, which in hindsight wasn't all that well done, but it confirmed that I wanted to own this type of vehicle long-term, so I saved up the difference and bought a zero-miles preregistered 2016 T6 California to replace it.

There may the odd exception from some of the established very top-end conversion firms, but from a depreciation & resale perspective the factory van will always come out way ahead.

If you pick your converter well the depreciation is as good as a Cali (I have been offered more than I paid for mine). Choose badly and you will lose money hand over fist! One advantage of a Cali is that you know, pretty much, what you are getting and the quality is VW quality. The disadvantage is you get, largely, what VW give you. Cali v Conversion - ? Only you can choose.

 

[Ocean Spirit]

Calfornia
Pro's
Better residuals
Homogenous build and design that has both tangible and non tangible appeal with features (there are too many too mention and some are model specific such as powered roof, kitchen, double glazing, auxiliary heater adequate power to weight ratio)
Kitchen on the correct side
Any warranty work is all under one manufacturer
Always tasteful
Satisfyingly correct
Cons
Dearer than most conversions
Less build options (example, single front seats v bench seat, interior layout)
After market Privacy glass application (double glazing/single glazing mismatch
Sliding door on the off side (I don't actually agree this is an issue but none the less UK spec transporters have the door on the near side)

Conversion
Pro's
Cheaper
Layout options
Long wheel base option
Usually plenty of Sportier looking vans if thats your bag
Option for Barn doors instead of tailgate
Sliding door on the nearside (if thats otherwise a problem)
Cons
Usually built on used vans that could present additional unknown abuse and history that hides for a while with the risk of poorly addressed problems during conversion build
Many are built on lower powered engines with heavier interior build
Possibly warranty complications
Lower residuals
If starting from scratch a good nearly new donor van and quality conversion would not be cheap
Just not a California

 

[louisdevenny]

Thank you for your responses, everyone; genuinely helpful! I look forward to receiving more, hopefully.

Although kind of addressed above, my greatest concern is vehicle depreciation and resale. Should (heaven forbid) I enter unexpected financial difficulties (e.g. the Recession hits hard... but not anticipating to suffer, personally) then I would reluctantly look to sell the van. My personal thought was that, although a Conversion done well should hold most value and be competitive at resale, what is my taste isn't necessarily someone else's. The original and classic California is, I suppose, every average 'Campervan' fanatics taste; based on the concept with the majority being happy purchasing one alike.

Simply, I kind of view the extra money invested into the purchase of a California as just that... an investment with the security of it holding it's value for the majority of buyers at a later stage. A Conversion perhaps a little more of a risk; with uncertain Financial Times ahead for everyone.

I also want to take advantage of the market, so my thought is that winter (Jan-Feb 21) is likely to be the best time to pursue one. I am aware of the lead-times in this approach and would sacrifice time in the spring/summer, although, I may not have returned to the U.K. by this point and it would actually be of no significant loss, personally.

Thoughts from everyone would be most grateful on the direct above and OP?

Thank you.

 

[Wildcamper]

Many Cali owners see the world as black and white. In reality it is grey. There are some terrible converters, there are a few excellent converters that are VW approved and conversions crash tested. A good conversion will hold up in value as well as a Cali. It is true that if converting a used van then you need to know the history of that van, many are abused. However, the same can be said of a used Cali. An abused Cali (and there are quite a few) will be as bad as an abused van. After all one is purchasing a used vehicle and we all know this minefield. In our case the Cali did not meet our standard. We purchased a new T6 LWB 150 DSG and had it converted to our spec. The van was under full VW warranty and the conversion has a 3 year warranty. There have been some niggles with the conversion. All sorted within 72 hours of contacting the converter. Where I had to take the van to them they paid for my mileage and a hotel while it was fixed. VW won't do that. The Cali v Conversion world is grey not black and white, but choose your converter with care.

Regarding the purchase of any vehicle as an "investment" I would suggest you tread carefully. Anything on wheels in a recession with suffer, be that a Cali, conversion or car - any vehicle. In a hard recession everything will suffer, money will be lost hand over fist. As has been said on here many times a Cali purchase, or a conversion for that matter, is from the heart not the head. When purchasing company stock financial advisers often say "only invest if you can afford to lose the money". If you are really worried about losing money in a recession I suggest there are far safer places to put your money than in a vehicle.

 

[WelshGas]

If you pick your converter well the depreciation is as good as a Cali (I have been offered more than I paid for mine). Choose badly and you will lose money hand over fist! One advantage of a Cali is that you know, pretty much, what you are getting and the quality is VW quality. The disadvantage is you get, largely, what VW give you. Cali v Conversion - ? Only you can choose.

I don't think you can read anything into re-sale prices or annual depreciation this year. Wait till next year when people can return to their normal holidays, the economic crash is recovering and the glut of 2nd hand vehies, to come, has subsided.

 

[louisdevenny]

Many Cali owners see the world as black and white. In reality it is grey. There are some terrible converters, there are a few excellent converters that are VW approved and conversions crash tested. A good conversion will hold up in value as well as a Cali. It is true that if converting a used van then you need to know the history of that van, many are abused. However, the same can be said of a used Cali. An abused Cali (and there are quite a few) will be as bad as an abused van. After all one is purchasing a used vehicle and we all know this minefield. In our case the Cali did not meet our standard. We purchased a new T6 LWB 150 DSG and had it converted to our spec. The van was under full VW warranty and the conversion has a 3 year warranty. There have been some niggles with the conversion. All sorted within 72 hours of contacting the converter. Where I had to take the van to them they paid for my mileage and a hotel while it was fixed. VW won't do that. The Cali v Conversion world is grey not black and white, but choose your converter with care.

Regarding the purchase of any vehicle as an "investment" I would suggest you tread carefully. Anything on wheels in a recession with suffer, be that a Cali, conversion or car - any vehicle. In a hard recession everything will suffer, money will be lost hand over fist. As has been said on here many times a Cali purchase, or a conversion for that matter, is from the heart not the head. When purchasing company stock financial advisers often say "only invest if you can afford to lose the money". If you are really worried about losing money in a recession I suggest there are far safer places to put your money than in a vehicle.

Thank you for your reply, again.

Interesting to hear about the mileage and hotel story - would never have expected that and certainly a little winner for many during purchasing. Customer care going that little further; although with the money being spent on bespoke converters, it's possibly the least for them to consider.

Apologies if I may have mislead you or any others, but to confirm, when I spoke of investment, I didn't mean in the context of investment into the likes of houses, or savings into stocks and shares (Cali's and Conv's). I meant more as a personal, self-certified/assigned 'GAP' type insurance; in-case of worst case eventualities... if you understand my thought process? Pay that little bit more for an original (Cali) to protect future resale value; over replica-type (Conv) which (may) be overlooked later on when the time is required to sell.

None of the above of course is to discredit Conversions, at all. I would not disregard the purchase of one entirely, and I have seen some very attractive Conversions, but I feel a little apprehensive at the moment. It all falls down to worst case scenario resale values, for me, as mentioned. I will think of the best analogy one day to express my thinking and understanding...

 

[CamperFam]

Conversions dont hold their cash well.

If you're after safety in resale, go for a Cali. It's a known quantity, the parts are mass produced, have warranty etc, and ultimately isn't botched.

A conversion will always contain complications on warranty, parts, layout, tastes and other concerns that the next owners would query/challenge/dislike (layout, safety, parts, brands, warranty, etc).

If you one 'one of one' unique - then a conversion is what you're after. But as you say -finding someone who likes it will take longer.

I spent 4 months trying to sell my T5 Conversion (very high spec) for 10k less than I bought it two years before, after adding 12k miles.

I could sell my Cali this afternoon for 10k more than I paid 3 months ago. In a normal world, it would sell within a week or two, for the same price I paid.

 

[PhilR]

Thank you for your reply, again.

Interesting to hear about the mileage and hotel story - would never have expected that and certainly a little winner for many during purchasing. Customer care going that little further; although with the money being spent on bespoke converters, it's possibly the least for them to consider.

Apologies if I may have mislead you or any others, but to confirm, when I spoke of investment, I didn't mean in the context of investment into the likes of houses, or savings into stocks and shares (Cali's and Conv's). I meant more as a personal, self-certified/assigned 'GAP' type insurance; in-case of worst case eventualities... if you understand my thought process? Pay that little bit more for an original (Cali) to protect future resale value; over replica-type (Conv) which (may) be overlooked later on when the time is required to sell.

None of the above of course is to discredit Conversions, at all. I would not disregard the purchase of one entirely, and I have seen some very attractive Conversions, but I feel a little apprehensive at the moment. It all falls down to worst case scenario resale values, for me, as mentioned. I will think of the best analogy one day to express my thinking and understanding...

I think you are probably answering your own question! You spoke of buying a new Cali in your first post. If you keep the spec down* you can get a new Coast for just over £50k with discount. Just having a quick search on used car sites shows you how scarce and how overpriced(?) used Cali’s are, but that is obviously impacted by current circumstances. However it also highlights the fact that whilst certainly not an “investment”, it could be a decent choice for you.
*Standard spec is very good on a factory California anyway. Especially compared to conversions. A lot of conversions seem to be on the very low powered engine for a start. Then you miss out on a lot of Cali features. I’m not against conversions, some are amazing, but from what you are saying I think a Cali Coast would work for you.

 

[2into1]

The consensus here is that conversions DON’T hold their value as well as Cali’s. The fact that @Wildcamper believes he/she has been been an exception to the rule doesn’t change the rule. The consensus here is formed over thousands of Cali owners’ experience and hundreds of ‘for sale’ ads. If you are concerned about losing money in a forced type resale, don’t buy a conversion.

 

[Ting Tong]

The whole vehicle is covered by up to a 5 year warranty and there are no warranty issues with things potentially caused by a third party conversion. You’ll also benefit from the sometimes attractive VW finance on the whole vehicle. If you spec a like base van, the difference on top for the Cali part isn’t that much more than you’ll pay a converter (about £17k).

 

[jbaedmonds]

The advantage a California has over a conversion is that it's a factory vehicle and not 'specialist'. This makes things like insurance easier, and come resale time there are price guides, traceable price history through auctions and a CAP code for it as a normal vehicle. With a conversion there's none of this (with the possible exception of a handful of high end ones) so you're reliant on selling to a specialist dealer or an educated private buyer.

I'm sure something done by Westfalia is just as good as a Cali in terms of quality and durability, but we looked a a couple of cheaper ones and you can tell where money was saved to hit the pricepoint. Not VW specific but I know how much some people lose on the less well known conversions and it's eye-watering, meanwhile I've seen 10-15 year old Californias sell for only 40% less than the new price.

I think there are many reasons to buy a conversion, but the main ones are budget, or having specific requirements that a California/Marco Polo/Nugget doesn't meet. In depreciation terms I think it's pretty clear that 'factory' vans (I know the Merc and Ford are Westfalia conversions) are a better choice.

 

[Wildcamper]

The debate of Cali v Conversion will continue for as long as campervan exist. The Cali is a great vehicle, if it ticks your boxes go for it. If any vehicle, car, van campervan, falls short then take a step back and think about what compromises you will accept. A great aspect of a Cali is that they are all built to a high standard and this is not true of all conversions, but there are conversions that are as good as Calis ( look for VW approved converters) and that hold their value as well as Calis. All I am trying to do here is add some balance into the decision making. This is a Cali forum so it is only right that this forum's consensus is Cali biased. If you go to the partner T6 forum you will get a different picture - no surprises there. Both forums have the same layout so I suspect they are run by the same people. I shall now withdraw from this discussion. Calis are great, good conversions are also great. Only you can decide which way to go. Happy hunting and happy camping.

 

[2into1]

It’s not a ‘better’ argument when it comes to resale. It’s a simple size of the market calculation. If I was a McDonald’s franchise owner trying to predict what burger will sell next, I’d be better cooking up a standard Big Mac rather than a ‘southern ranch grown peacock tikka masala with extra mayo’.
It’s the same with vans. The Cali is the best version of the most popular layout, using quality materials no one finds offensive. A unique layout and materials and finishes specced by the owner reduces the size of the resale market. Someone will love it, but the chance of them finding that van at the exact moment yours is for sale is limited. Less demand tends to equal lower prices.
Although I quite like a Tikka Peacock.

 

[Bellcrew]

It’s not a ‘better’ argument when it comes to resale. It’s a simple size of the market calculation. If I was a McDonald’s franchise owner trying to predict what burger will sell next, I’d be better cooking up a standard Big Mac rather than a ‘southern ranch grown peacock tikka masala with extra mayo’.
It’s the same with vans. The Cali is the best version of the most popular layout, using quality materials no one finds offensive. A unique layout and materials and finishes specced by the owner reduces the size of the resale market. Someone will love it, but the chance of them finding that van at the exact moment yours is for sale is limited. Less demand tends to equal lower prices.
Although I quite like a Tikka Peacock.

Every time a new model California appears it is tested by all of the broadsheet newspapers and sometimes the tabloids, conversions just do not exist in their world view. Conversions are of course reviewed by the specialist press but they rarely put up a basic/second hand van up for test just the coolest fully equipped version that appeals to mainly the younger set, as ever you pay your money...............

 

[louisdevenny]

Some very reassuring feedback on here - thank you all, again!

As mentioned, naturally, people on this forum will lean towards a Cali over a Conv; which comes as no surprise to me. But (not because I prefer a Cali anymore than a Cons - although I do a little), I feel it is safe to, at the present moment with financial uncertainties all round for many, remain on the California side; should I look to make this momentous purchase over the next 12 months or so.

Even without glancing over the Partner T6 Forum, there is enough expert advice here to convince me otherwise...

For now, I consider this conversation adjourn and I look forward towards advice for the next question I shall have lined up (but I will look out for any additional responses the the OP, here).

Cheers again, folks!

 

[HectorPascal]

When we were looking, we were surprised that the converters were not cheaper. Rightly or wrongly we value German engineering and values. The Cali is a complex machine and on the whole well designed and refined. The Vee-Dub camper has always warmed people to the brand generally and VW have a lot at stake reputationally. We felt that we could trust their build standards on the bits you can't see - behind panels, wiring looms, heat condensation insulation, anti-rattle attention. Then there is the tech side - the aircon back and front, lighting, centralised warning system etc. It all adds up to owner satisfaction and translates to deservedly high residuals.

I am sure there are ideas and designs amongst the converters which beat VW's offering hands-down but overall we felt the best way to protect this large investment was to go with the Cali. No regrets so far.

 

[dartmoordingoe]

My experience trying to buy a 2-5 year old Cali has been that the sellers have managed to sell within days of advertising .... it may be exceptional times but given this is the beginning of autumn its pretty encouraging.
Having had Brazilian T2 with the door on the wrong side .... I have not found that to be a problem.
I personally think the design is very clever and somehow holds onto the original concept of my old T2 Westphalia.
Sarah and I are very excited about picking this up in April. We did look at good converters like Rolling Homes and Jerba but on balance think the VW wins it for us