BBC Panorama this evening

[Amarillo]

For the past year and a bit the section in Deptford has been block by roadworks almost constantly

The section between Surrey Quays and Greenwich has only been open ~6 weeks. There was a long delay opening it because of works on the lifting bridge on Creek Road.

There are now three parallel cycle routes from Central London to Greenwich.
1. NCR 4 (Fishguard to Greenwich): through London it follows the meandering course of The Thames.
2. Cycleway 4: a fully segregated fast and direct cycle track alongside main roads
3. Quietway 1 (now rebranded Cycleway 10): using back streets, paths, parks and traffic calmed roads from Waterloo to Greenwich.

No wonder that cycle rates are surging in London.

 

[andyinluton]

The section between Surrey Quays and Greenwich has only been open ~6 weeks. There was a long delay opening it because of works on the lifting bridge on Creek Road.

There are now three parallel cycle routes from Central London to Greenwich.
1. NCR 4 (Fishguard to Greenwich): through London it follows the meandering course of The Thames.
2. Cycleway 4: a fully segregated fast and direct cycle track alongside main roads
3. Quietway 1 (now rebranded Cycleway 10): using back streets, paths, parks and traffic calmed roads from Waterloo to Greenwich.

No wonder that cycle rates are surging in London.

Having driven along side Cycleway 4 yesterday I would comment that installing the dedicated cycle traffic lights was a complete waste of time, cars straight on at this junction on a green (for cars) were having to stop for cyclists jumping red (cycle specific) lights going right / ahead but crossing the car lanes.
Saw 15+ cyclists jumping reds at this junction & not a single car.

 

[Amarillo]

Having driven along side Cycleway 4 yesterday I would comment that installing the dedicated cycle traffic lights was a complete waste of time, cars straight on at this junction on a green (for cars) were having to stop for cyclists jumping red (cycle specific) lights going right / ahead but crossing the car lanes.
Saw 15+ cyclists jumping reds at this junction & not a single car.
View attachment 101639

Cycleway 4 turns left onto Norway Street at that point and ends where it merges with NCR4 (The Thames Path). Turning right and crossing the main road leads to Greenwich High Street on back roads closed to through motor traffic.

At older toucan crossings the Red cycle/pedestrian phase is advisory for cyclists. There may be some confusion about the mandatory/advisory status for cyclist specific lights. (Pedestrian lights are always advisory for pedestrians.)

 

[GrannyJen]

Cycleway 4 turns left onto Norway Street at that point and ends where it merges with NCR4 (The Thames Path). Turning right and crossing the main road leads to Greenwich High Street on back roads closed to through motor traffic.

At older toucan crossings the Red cycle/pedestrian phase is advisory for cyclists. There may be some confusion about the mandatory/advisory status for cyclist specific lights. (Pedestrian lights are always advisory for pedestrians.)

I must be stupid.

All I read is rule 82, if a cycle symbol is showing then you must not cross until it's green.

 

[Amarillo]

I must be stupid.

All I read is rule 82, if a cycle symbol is showing then you must not cross until it's green.

Older toucan crossings only show a red pedestrian symbol. They have both a green pedestrian symbol and a green cycle symbol.

I haven’t looked up the full context of Rule 82. But as I understand it, cyclists can walk their bike across any toucan or cycle crossing showing a red cycle symbol.

I think your confusion over what symbols may or may not be present at cycle crossings help confirm my point. However, you are right that cyclists should (but not must) wait until the green cycle symbol shows.

 

[andyinluton]

I must be stupid.

I don't think so.

I don't see how it could be much clearer than this extract from rule 82:

"Cycle tracks on opposite sides of the road may be linked by cycle-only signalled crossings. You may ride across but you MUST NOT cross until the green cycle symbol is showing."

They've even gone to the trouble of putting the relevant bit in block capitals.

 

[Amarillo]

I don't think so.

I don't see how it could be much clearer than this extract from rule 82:

"Cycle tracks on opposite sides of the road may be linked by cycle-only signalled crossings. You may ride across but you MUST NOT cross until the green cycle symbol is showing."

They've even gone to the trouble of putting the relevant bit in block capitals.

As I said, older toucan crossings were advisory.

I know that newer crossings with red and green cycle symbols are mandatory, but those older style crossings were advisory.

There are no restrictions for pedestrians crossing a cycle only junction (other than causing an obstruction). I think that a person pushing a bike across a cycle junction would be classed as a pedestrian not a cyclist. (I’d love to be proved wrong on this point).

 

[ArunAlec]

As I said, older toucan crossings were advisory.

I know that newer crossings with red and green cycle symbols are mandatory, but those older style crossings were advisory.

There are no restrictions for pedestrians crossing a cycle only junction (other than causing an obstruction). I think that a person pushing a bike across a cycle junction would be classed as a pedestrian not a cyclist. (I’d love to be proved wrong on this point).

Getting confused! Are you saying that I need to differentiate between “old” and “new” toucan crossings so that I can decide whether to cross on a red light or not?

 

[GrannyJen]

As I said, older toucan crossings were advisory.

I know that newer crossings with red and green cycle symbols are mandatory, but those older style crossings were advisory.

There are no restrictions for pedestrians crossing a cycle only junction (other than causing an obstruction). I think that a person pushing a bike across a cycle junction would be classed as a pedestrian not a cyclist. (I’d love to be proved wrong on this point).

So, the crossings that @andyinluton refers to, do they have green and red cycle symbols or not?

 

[ArunAlec]

Cycling used to be so simple! Time for me to hang my cycle clips.

 

[andyinluton]

So, the crossings that @andyinluton refers to, do they have green and red cycle symbols or not?

Yes brand new, brightest Red you've ever seen - like a rear fog light & still totally ignored.

 

[Amarillo]

So, the crossings that @andyinluton refers to, do they have green and red cycle symbols or not?

I’m assuming they are modern crossings.

All I am saying is that some might be confused with the change in toucan crossings and (presumably) a revision to the Highway Code.

 

[GrannyJen]

I’m assuming they are modern crossings.

All I am saying is that some might be confused with the change in toucan crossings and (presumably) a revision to the Highway Code.

As a driver I obtained a copy of the latest copy of the HC as soon as it came out. I would hate to kill someone because I was "confused."

Do you not think it irresponsible of "some" cyclists not to appraise themselves also? To me, a red light is a red light. Now, I'm a relatively "New" cyclist, only 3 years being a born-again bicyclist, and I thought it was me that was confused as I was stopping at every red light that appeared to point to me and at times felt very lonely as I was the only one.

So, I am not confused? A red light should mean STOP and those cyclists ignoring a red light are in the wrong?

 

[ArunAlec]

Ashley Neal has one of the calmest, even-tempered channels on YouTube. He is also a cyclist and has made a couple of video's from a bicycle. I like his calm, measured take on Mikey here.

Whoops!

 

[GrannyJen]

Whoops!

I actually thought the documentary was quite well presented and evenly balanced.

 

[66tim99]

A red light should mean STOP and those cyclists ignoring a red light are in the wrong?

They are wrong. I know because a police officer stopped me when I set off too early through a pedestrian crossing red light on The Mall where the pedestrians had already crossed. She gave me a ticking off, but accepted there was close-to-nil risk.
But I still think that although the law is black-and-white, a cyclist can responsibly appraise the situation and move safely through a red light. If a pedestrian has clearly already crossed, and there's no-one else around and I have momentum, I'm unlikely to stop on a clear road at the red light. Similarly if I'm sat at traffic lights and I can see there's no reason not to turn left, I'm unlikely to sit and wait for the green light. I could get off my bike, and walk it through the lights (on the footway) legally, but that's just daft.
I still like to think I'm responsible, even though I'm breaking the law. I realise I'm blurring the lines, and I do hate the way some cyclists blaze through reds with pedestrians around - I'll never do that. And if I caused any injury of course I'd accept responsibility.
I respect anyone who thinks I'm a pillock, but I take the risk sometimes anyway. Particularly as since that time on The Mall 20 years ago, I have been seen by many police officers easing through red lights and never again been spoken to.

 

[Amarillo]

Getting confused! Are you saying that I need to differentiate between “old” and “new” toucan crossings so that I can decide whether to cross on a red light or not?

Confused?

Do you know the different rules for cycles at these two crossings?

I didn’t until I looked into it.

 

[Amarillo]

As a driver I obtained a copy of the latest copy of the HC as soon as it came out. I would hate to kill someone because I was "confused."

Do you not think it irresponsible of "some" cyclists not to appraise themselves also? To me, a red light is a red light. Now, I'm a relatively "New" cyclist, only 3 years being a born-again bicyclist, and I thought it was me that was confused as I was stopping at every red light that appeared to point to me and at times felt very lonely as I was the only one.

So, I am not confused? A red light should mean STOP and those cyclists ignoring a red light are in the wrong?

In that case you are a better person than I am.

I had a copy of the Highway Code when learning to drive, am am aware there have been changes since then, but have not kept up to date on every revision.

 

[westfalia]

Do you know the different rules for cycles at these two crossings?

That you must push the bike?

 

[GrannyJen]

They are wrong. I know because a police officer stopped me when I set off too early through a pedestrian crossing red light on The Mall where the pedestrians had already crossed. She gave me a ticking off, but accepted there was close-to-nil risk.
But I still think that although the law is black-and-white, a cyclist can responsibly appraise the situation and move safely through a red light. If a pedestrian has clearly already crossed, and there's no-one else around and I have momentum, I'm unlikely to stop on a clear road at the red light. Similarly if I'm sat at traffic lights and I can see there's no reason not to turn left, I'm unlikely to sit and wait for the green light. I could get off my bike, and walk it through the lights (on the footway) legally, but that's just daft.
I still like to think I'm responsible, even though I'm breaking the law. I realise I'm blurring the lines, and I do hate the way some cyclists blaze through reds with pedestrians around - I'll never do that. And if I caused any injury of course I'd accept responsibility.
I respect anyone who thinks I'm a pillock, but I take the risk sometimes anyway. Particularly as since that time on The Mall 20 years ago, I have been seen by many police officers easing through red lights and never again been spoken to.

Confused?

Do you know the different rules for cycles at these two crossings?

I didn’t until I looked into it.

With both I would say red means stop, green means go. The second one looks to be what the Highway Code refers to as a toucan "shared crossing" which means you may ride your bike across whereas with the top one you can only walk your bike across.

 

[ArunAlec]

Confused?

Do you know the different rules for cycles at these two crossings?

I didn’t until I looked into it.

Now that I’ve looked at Wikipedia….I think I get it, but the bottom line (without knowing whether it’s an old or new Toucan) appears to be that a cyclist should not cross if the cycle is red and if no red light exists or there is and it’s green they can cross if safe to do so.

 

[Amarillo]

With both I would say red means stop, green means go. The second one looks to be what the Highway Code refers to as a toucan "shared crossing" which means you may ride your bike across whereas with the top one you can only walk your bike across.

Both are toucan crossings. The first you must not cycle across on red. The second you should not cycle across on red.

I hope someone will correct me if I am mistaken, but I think you can push across on red at either if you think it is safe to do so.

 

[GrannyJen]

The HC is pretty poor at identifying which crossing is which and cycle craft makes no mention of them at all.

I will stick to my mantra, red means stop, green means go except where pedestrians can cross if it is safe to do so in which case I will wheel my bike over.

 

[ArunAlec]

Both are toucan crossings. The first you must not cycle across on red. The second you should not cycle across on red.

I hope someone will correct me if I am mistaken, but I think you can push across on red at either if you think it is safe to do so.

Don’t think crossing on red is allowed …ever.

 

[andyinluton]

Do you know the different rules for cycles at these two crossings?

Both Toucan crossings so no difference you are allowed to ride over both on red. Advised to stop at red but advisory only.


Red lights on cycle lanes are mandatory - along with "normal traffic lights"

There was a proposed amendment in 2001 but that doesn't appear to have happened yet.

From Traffic signs regulations & General Directions 1994

"The red pedestrian signal in diagrams 4003.5 [an illuminated red man on the far side of the road] and 4003.7 [an illuminated red man above the push-button unit], and the red cycle symbol in 4003.7 [an illuminated red cycle above the push-button unit], are advisory rather than mandatory for both cyclists and pedestrians. Proposed revision of the Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions, 1994, Department for Transport, Local Government and the Regions, September 2001."