Change to Body Type Description

[Amarillo]

On this point I am afraid you are Incorrect.
A N1 Commercial Vehicle, with a MGW of 3.05 Tonnes or less that has a Body Type Motorhome/Motor Caravan ( that is Not used to carry goods/ used as a workshop or used for storage has the same National Speed Limits as a M1 Car.

The Rotherhithe Tunnel Authorities are only interested in the M1/N1 Classification and size.

I’m afraid you can argue as much as you like, until you are blue in the face, but on this point you are incorrect Body Type Motorhome/Motor Caravan trumps the N1 Commercial Speed Limits.

That is not my understanding.

Post #120 in the Rotherhithe Tunnel thread contains what I believe to be an authoritative letter detailing the correct interpretation of current legislation. (Also reproduced below). N1/M1 is definitive of goods vehicle or passenger car. Body type does not alter that definition. If a campervan converter wants to have their vehicle reclassified from N1 to M1 they need to have their vehicle tested and a new chassis number issued.

Please read the letter in full before making a response, and if you feel that the letter contains false information or I have misinterpreted it, please, by all means, show me where the letter is false or where I have misunderstood or misinterpreted it.

Van now a motorhome but still classed as N1

Hi everyone, This may be a little long winded as there is a response from the DVSA into my query regarding T5 converstions. I have recently done mine and sent all the evidence to DVLA for it to be re classified as a motor caravan, which they have done, however seeing that the vehicle was a van...

www.vwt4forum.co.uk

=====

Thank you for your enquiry which has now been passed to me, due to its technical nature. This has caused an extended delay in you receiving a reply, for which I apologise.

Your question is more involved than you might think, but I shall try to answer all the points raised to enable you to make an informed decision on the correct registration of such a vehicle. I shall therefore start by explaining the background to the situation regarding your vehicle.

In October 2007, the European Type Approval scheme for cars known as European Community Whole Vehicle Type Approval (ECWVTA) was amended by the implementation of the Recast Framework Directive 2007/46/EC. Due to this legislation, ECWVTA will extend to cover other vehicle types for the first time. The directive details the mandatory implementation dates for all categories of vehicles affected, the first being M1 passenger cars from 29th April 2009, followed by buses, coaches, vans, trucks and some special purpose vehicles at key dates between 2009 and 2014. Motor Caravans (as Special Purpose Vehicles) have required IVA testing since 29th April 2012.

The Directive provides the base European legislation for the approval of vehicles that are mass produced, built in small numbers or as individual vehicles, requiring them to meet specified safety and environmental standards before they can be used on the road. The IVA scheme is a pre-registration inspection for vehicles that have not been Type-Approved to British or European standards. Since 1st May 2009 there have been two levels of IVA; Basic and Normal. Basic IVA will be applied in cases where the number of affected vehicles is expected to be low and we can accept that the very demanding safety and environmental standards of Type Approval will not be undermined. The Normal IVA will be applied in all other cases, i.e. where the number of vehicles entering service warrants Type Approval or comparable standards for key environmental and safety items.

Motor Caravans will require Basic IVA testing. However, despite what you have been previously advised, it is the DVLA that will decide if a vehicle requires IVA testing, not DVSA and as such it is probably a very good idea if you contact them again, to gain an understanding of the actual situation regarding your vehicle, should you still be concerned by this. The generic understanding currently provided by the DVLA is as follows : If a panel van is converted to a Motor Caravan post registration, then it does not require additional approval. However, it should be noted that even if the DVLA accept that the vehicle now meets the definition as a Motor Caravan, the vehicle class will not change on the V5 (registration document) only the vehicle description.

If the vehicle was approved as an N1 Goods vehicle it will still be listed as an N1 Goods vehicle.

As you have suggested, this will have an impact on such items as speed limits applied to the vehicle and the London Congestion charge.

If the intention is to have the vehicle both viewed and described as a Motor Caravan, then it must be issued with a new chassis number by the DVLA and approved as an M1 passenger vehicle under the IVA scheme. With regard to proceeding with having an IVA examination of the vehicle, with the intention of having the vehicle category changed, I have provided further information regarding the IVA scheme, which can be found by following the links below:

VEHICLE TYPE APPROVAL -
https://www.gov.uk/vehicle-approval/...hicle-approval


IVA -
https://www.gov.uk/vehicle-approval/...hicle-approval
(Includes links to the Model Report list on the VOSA site, list of Technical Services, the IVA Guide, Test Stations and POTFs)

IVA MANUALS -
https://www.gov.uk/vehicle-approval/...proval-manuals

IVA FORMS -
https://www.gov.uk/vehicle-approval/...lication-forms

If any of the above links do not work, please copy and paste them into your web browser.

While I appreciate that this is not the answer you had hoped for, I do hope that you have found this information to be of use. However, if you feel that I can be of further assistance in this matter, please do not hesitate to contact me.

Best regards, Mark
Mark Vickers Eng Tech MSOE MIRTE
Technical Officer IVA M1 N1 O1
Driver and Vehicle Standards Agency
Ellipse, Padley Road, Swansea, SA1 8AN
Phone: 0300 123 9000

 

[WelshGas]

That is not my understanding.

Post #120 in the Rotherhithe Tunnel thread contains what I believe to be an authoritative letter detailing the correct interpretation of current legislation. (Also reproduced below). N1/M1 is definitive of goods vehicle or passenger car. Body type does not alter that definition. If a campervan converter wants to have their vehicle reclassified from N1 to M1 they need to have their vehicle tested and a new chassis number issued.

Please read the letter in full before making a response, and if you feel that the letter contains false information or I have misinterpreted it, please, by all means, show me where the letter is false or where I have misunderstood or misinterpreted it.

Van now a motorhome but still classed as N1

Hi everyone, This may be a little long winded as there is a response from the DVSA into my query regarding T5 converstions. I have recently done mine and sent all the evidence to DVLA for it to be re classified as a motor caravan, which they have done, however seeing that the vehicle was a van...

www.vwt4forum.co.uk

=====

Thank you for your enquiry which has now been passed to me, due to its technical nature. This has caused an extended delay in you receiving a reply, for which I apologise.

Your question is more involved than you might think, but I shall try to answer all the points raised to enable you to make an informed decision on the correct registration of such a vehicle. I shall therefore start by explaining the background to the situation regarding your vehicle.

In October 2007, the European Type Approval scheme for cars known as European Community Whole Vehicle Type Approval (ECWVTA) was amended by the implementation of the Recast Framework Directive 2007/46/EC. Due to this legislation, ECWVTA will extend to cover other vehicle types for the first time. The directive details the mandatory implementation dates for all categories of vehicles affected, the first being M1 passenger cars from 29th April 2009, followed by buses, coaches, vans, trucks and some special purpose vehicles at key dates between 2009 and 2014. Motor Caravans (as Special Purpose Vehicles) have required IVA testing since 29th April 2012.

The Directive provides the base European legislation for the approval of vehicles that are mass produced, built in small numbers or as individual vehicles, requiring them to meet specified safety and environmental standards before they can be used on the road. The IVA scheme is a pre-registration inspection for vehicles that have not been Type-Approved to British or European standards. Since 1st May 2009 there have been two levels of IVA; Basic and Normal. Basic IVA will be applied in cases where the number of affected vehicles is expected to be low and we can accept that the very demanding safety and environmental standards of Type Approval will not be undermined. The Normal IVA will be applied in all other cases, i.e. where the number of vehicles entering service warrants Type Approval or comparable standards for key environmental and safety items.

Motor Caravans will require Basic IVA testing. However, despite what you have been previously advised, it is the DVLA that will decide if a vehicle requires IVA testing, not DVSA and as such it is probably a very good idea if you contact them again, to gain an understanding of the actual situation regarding your vehicle, should you still be concerned by this. The generic understanding currently provided by the DVLA is as follows : If a panel van is converted to a Motor Caravan post registration, then it does not require additional approval. However, it should be noted that even if the DVLA accept that the vehicle now meets the definition as a Motor Caravan, the vehicle class will not change on the V5 (registration document) only the vehicle description.

If the vehicle was approved as an N1 Goods vehicle it will still be listed as an N1 Goods vehicle.

As you have suggested, this will have an impact on such items as speed limits applied to the vehicle and the London Congestion charge.

If the intention is to have the vehicle both viewed and described as a Motor Caravan, then it must be issued with a new chassis number by the DVLA and approved as an M1 passenger vehicle under the IVA scheme. With regard to proceeding with having an IVA examination of the vehicle, with the intention of having the vehicle category changed, I have provided further information regarding the IVA scheme, which can be found by following the links below:

VEHICLE TYPE APPROVAL -
https://www.gov.uk/vehicle-approval/...hicle-approval


IVA -
https://www.gov.uk/vehicle-approval/...hicle-approval
(Includes links to the Model Report list on the VOSA site, list of Technical Services, the IVA Guide, Test Stations and POTFs)

IVA MANUALS -
https://www.gov.uk/vehicle-approval/...proval-manuals

IVA FORMS -
https://www.gov.uk/vehicle-approval/...lication-forms

If any of the above links do not work, please copy and paste them into your web browser.

While I appreciate that this is not the answer you had hoped for, I do hope that you have found this information to be of use. However, if you feel that I can be of further assistance in this matter, please do not hesitate to contact me.

Best regards, Mark
Mark Vickers Eng Tech MSOE MIRTE
Technical Officer IVA M1 N1 O1
Driver and Vehicle Standards Agency
Ellipse, Padley Road, Swansea, SA1 8AN
Phone: 0300 123 9000

Nowhere have I mentioned anything about converting a N1 vehicle to a M1 Classification . That is an involved process and absolutely nothing to do with the fact that a N1 Commercial Vehicle that weighs less than 3.05 Tonnes can have different National speed limits that are dependant on the Body Type Classification. That Information is from the Governments own website.
A N1 Commercial Vehicle weighing less than 3.05 Tonnes could, until June this year, apply to DVLA to have the Body Type changed from Panel Van/ Van with windows etc: if they conformed to DVLAs published requirements regarding cooker/ sink/bed/table etc.
If the application was accepted and the Body Type changed then the National Speed Limits for that Vehicle also changed. FACT and not open to interpretation.

 

[Amarillo]

If the application was accepted and the Body Type changed then the National Speed Limits for that Vehicle also changed. FACT and not open to interpretation.

Until yesterday I believed that to be the case. However the authority of the letter I have reproduced here leads me to believe otherwise.

N1 motorhomes or motor caravans are treated as goods vehicles for speed restrictions.

Speed limits

A limit of 30 miles per hour or 48 kilometres per hour usually applies to all traffic on all roads with street lighting

www.gov.uk

Makes a special mention of such vehicles under the table of speed limits.

If I am wrong, please reference an authority on this. The gov.uk speed limit site gives different limits for motor caravans which are passenger cars (in the main body of the table) and motor caravans which are goods vehicles (in the notes below).

This appears to support my understanding. A speed camera or traffic cop can not determine the purpose to which a motor caravan is being used so it relies on the M1/N1 category which is, I believe, definitive.

This definitive nature of the M1/N1 category is further supported in TfL’s/Steve’s adjudication for his driving through the Rotherhithe Tunnel in an N1 vehicle with body type motor caravan.

 

[Loz]

Don’t confuse speed limits with Rotherhithe’s choice of restrictions.

 

[Loz]

Here is a post from a T6 forum member(police traffic officer)
QUOTESo. I lied when I said I was gonna shut up about this. I emailed the department for transport to get their take on it. Below is the email I sent and the reply from one of their policy advisors.



Morning.

I am trying to find out whether an N1 classified vehicle can qualify as dual use if it meets the construction and use regulations.
Specifically a VW Kombi. The vehicle meets the definition of dual purpose regarding weights and seats and windows etc but has an N1 classification.
Does the fact that it meets the criterior for a dual purpose vehicle mean it is subject to the car speed limits rather than the goods vehicle ones.
The information online suggests that this is the case.. However there is a massive amount of confusion out there regarding this.
Vans, car-derived vans and dual-purpose vehicles
Most vans under 7.5 tonnes laden (loaded) weight, including Ford Transit vans:

• have a lower speed limit than cars
• must follow the speed limits for goods vehicles of the same weight

A vehicle qualifying as a ‘car-derived van’ or ‘dual-purpose vehicle’ has the same speed limits as a car.

eagerly awaiting a response
regards
Tim



Tim
Thank you for your email which has been forwarded to me for reply. Please note that I cannot give legal advice, or give a definitive view on a particular vehicle, but I can point you to the relevant legislation.

Speed limits for vehicles of certain classes are set out in schedule ‪6 of the Road Traffic Regulation Act 1984‬. http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1984/27/schedule/6

Your vehicle has been registered as type N1 which denotes a goods vehicle not exceeding 3.5 tonnes maximum laden weight. You do not mention what body type is recorded on the registration document. If it states ‘panel van’ and the vehicle has been converted you will need to apply to DVLA to amend the registration document. Change vehicle details on a V5C registration certificate (log book) - GOV.UK

As a goods vehicle the applicable maximum speed limits would be 50mph on single carriageway roads, 60mph on dual carriageway roads and 70mph on motorways.

However, if, as you believe, the vehicle qualifies as a dual purpose vehicle it will be subject to the national speed limits. As you are aware The Road Vehicles (Construction and Use) Regulations 1986, Part 1 Regulation 3(2) defines a dual purpose vehicle as:

a vehicle constructed or adapted for the carriage both of passengers and of goods or burden of any description, being a vehicle of which the unladen weight does not exceed 2040 kg, and which is so constructed or adapted that the driving power of the engine is, or by the appropriate use of the controls of the vehicle can be, transmitted to all the wheels of the vehicle; or

(ii) satisfies the following conditions as to construction, namely—
- the vehicle must be permanently fitted with a rigid roof, with or without a sliding panel;
-the area of the vehicle to the rear of the driver's seat must be permanently fitted with at least one row of transverse seats (fixed or folding) for two or more passengers and those seats must be properly sprung or cushioned and provided with upholstered back-rests, attached either to the seats or to a side or the floor of the vehicle; and be lit on each side and at the rear by a window or windows of glass or other transparent material having an area or aggregate area of not less than 1850 square centimetres on each side and not less than 770 square centimetres at the rear; and the distance between the rearmost part of the steering wheel and the back-rests of the row of transverse seats satisfying the requirements specified in head (i) of sub-paragraph (b) (or, if there is more than one such row of seats, the distance between the rearmost part of the steering wheel and the back-rests of the rearmost such row) must, when the seats are ready for use, be not less than one-third of the distance between the rearmost part of the steering wheel and the rearmost part of the floor of the vehicle.
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/1986/1078/regulation/3/made

If your vehicle meets the above criteria for a dual purpose vehicle it should be restricted to the national speed limits of 60mph on single carriageway roads and 70mph on dual carriageways and motorways.
Regards

Tony


Mr TonyL Smith
Policy Advisor, Freight: Vehicle Speeds, Drivers’ Hours and Enforcement.
End Quote

 

[WelshGas]

Until yesterday I believed that to be the case. However the authority of the letter I have reproduced here leads me to believe otherwise.

N1 motorhomes or motor caravans are treated as goods vehicles for speed restrictions.

Speed limits

A limit of 30 miles per hour or 48 kilometres per hour usually applies to all traffic on all roads with street lighting

www.gov.uk

Makes a special mention of such vehicles under the table of speed limits.

If I am wrong, please reference an authority on this. The gov.uk speed limit site gives different limits for motor caravans which are passenger cars (in the main body of the table) and motor caravans which are goods vehicles (in the notes below).

This appears to support my understanding. A speed camera or traffic cop can not determine the purpose to which a motor caravan is being used so it relies on the M1/N1 category which is, I believe, definitive.

This definitive nature of the M1/N1 category is further supported in TfL’s/Steve’s adjudication for his driving through the Rotherhithe Tunnel in an N1 vehicle with body type motor caravan.

Any Motorhome/Motor Caravan, from the Website you quoted -

Motorhomes
Motorhomes or motor caravans are classed as goods vehicles if they:

• carry goods for exhibition and sale
• are used as a workshop
• are used for storage

My reading of that Statement is that if you used your California for any of those purposes then it would be treated as a N1 Commercial Vehicle, Body Type Van with Windows and therefore limited to the Commercial Van Speed Limits, immaterial that it has the M1 Car Classification.

Whereas the new California Beach/ Ocean registered since June 2019 have a Body Type - MPV and so would not be affected.

My son has a N1 converted T5 . V5c states Body Type Motor Caravan and 3 points for exceeding 70 mph on a local Dual Carriageway that has a 70 mph limit.

 

[Amarillo]

Don’t confuse speed limits with Rotherhithe’s choice of restrictions.

Yes, I am aware that it is possible that TfL’s definitions my differ, but the Adjudicator’s narrative made it clear that he was basing the definition of a goods vehicle on legislation.

But taking the three documents together: the letter from Mark Vickers, the gov.uk speed limits page, and the adjudicator’s narrative all led me to believe that I had previously been wrong about N1 motor caravan speed limits, at least in the case of conversions with a body type amended since 29 April 2012.

 

[Loz]

Yes, I am aware that it is possible that TfL’s definitions my differ, but the Adjudicator’s narrative made it clear that he was basing the definition of a goods vehicle on legislation.

But taking the three documents together: the letter from Mark Vickers, the gov.uk speed limits page, and the adjudicator’s narrative all led me to believe that I had previously been wrong about N1 motor caravan speed limits, at least in the case of conversions with a body type amended since 29 April 2012.

Did you read my post 2 up with the quote from the DFT chap, I wonder if that might help against Rotherhithe?

 

[Amarillo]

Here is a post from a T6 forum member(police traffic officer)
QUOTESo. I lied when I said I was gonna shut up about this. I emailed the department for transport to get their take on it. Below is the email I sent and the reply from one of their policy advisors.



Morning.

I am trying to find out whether an N1 classified vehicle can qualify as dual use if it meets the construction and use regulations.
Specifically a VW Kombi. The vehicle meets the definition of dual purpose regarding weights and seats and windows etc but has an N1 classification.
Does the fact that it meets the criterior for a dual purpose vehicle mean it is subject to the car speed limits rather than the goods vehicle ones.
The information online suggests that this is the case.. However there is a massive amount of confusion out there regarding this.
Vans, car-derived vans and dual-purpose vehicles
Most vans under 7.5 tonnes laden (loaded) weight, including Ford Transit vans:

• have a lower speed limit than cars
• must follow the speed limits for goods vehicles of the same weight

A vehicle qualifying as a ‘car-derived van’ or ‘dual-purpose vehicle’ has the same speed limits as a car.

eagerly awaiting a response
regards
Tim



Tim
Thank you for your email which has been forwarded to me for reply. Please note that I cannot give legal advice, or give a definitive view on a particular vehicle, but I can point you to the relevant legislation.

Speed limits for vehicles of certain classes are set out in schedule ‪6 of the Road Traffic Regulation Act 1984‬. http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1984/27/schedule/6

Your vehicle has been registered as type N1 which denotes a goods vehicle not exceeding 3.5 tonnes maximum laden weight. You do not mention what body type is recorded on the registration document. If it states ‘panel van’ and the vehicle has been converted you will need to apply to DVLA to amend the registration document. Change vehicle details on a V5C registration certificate (log book) - GOV.UK

As a goods vehicle the applicable maximum speed limits would be 50mph on single carriageway roads, 60mph on dual carriageway roads and 70mph on motorways.

However, if, as you believe, the vehicle qualifies as a dual purpose vehicle it will be subject to the national speed limits. As you are aware The Road Vehicles (Construction and Use) Regulations 1986, Part 1 Regulation 3(2) defines a dual purpose vehicle as:

a vehicle constructed or adapted for the carriage both of passengers and of goods or burden of any description, being a vehicle of which the unladen weight does not exceed 2040 kg, and which is so constructed or adapted that the driving power of the engine is, or by the appropriate use of the controls of the vehicle can be, transmitted to all the wheels of the vehicle; or

(ii) satisfies the following conditions as to construction, namely—
- the vehicle must be permanently fitted with a rigid roof, with or without a sliding panel;
-the area of the vehicle to the rear of the driver's seat must be permanently fitted with at least one row of transverse seats (fixed or folding) for two or more passengers and those seats must be properly sprung or cushioned and provided with upholstered back-rests, attached either to the seats or to a side or the floor of the vehicle; and be lit on each side and at the rear by a window or windows of glass or other transparent material having an area or aggregate area of not less than 1850 square centimetres on each side and not less than 770 square centimetres at the rear; and the distance between the rearmost part of the steering wheel and the back-rests of the row of transverse seats satisfying the requirements specified in head (i) of sub-paragraph (b) (or, if there is more than one such row of seats, the distance between the rearmost part of the steering wheel and the back-rests of the rearmost such row) must, when the seats are ready for use, be not less than one-third of the distance between the rearmost part of the steering wheel and the rearmost part of the floor of the vehicle.
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/1986/1078/regulation/3/made

If your vehicle meets the above criteria for a dual purpose vehicle it should be restricted to the national speed limits of 60mph on single carriageway roads and 70mph on dual carriageways and motorways.
Regards

Tony


Mr TonyL Smith
Policy Advisor, Freight: Vehicle Speeds, Drivers’ Hours and Enforcement.
End Quote

That quotes legislation from 1984 and 1986.

Mark Vickers quotes directives from 2007 with an implementation date of 29 April 2012 for motorhomes.

 

[Loz]

That quotes legislation from 1984 and 1986.

Mark Vickers quotes directives from 2007 with an implementation date of 29 April 2012 for motorhomes.

Yes, but the definition for a multi-purpose vehicle has not changed, so if you meet that criteria, then not classed as a commercial ?
So instead of trying to argue its a Motorhome, argue that it is not a commercial but an mpv.

 

[Amarillo]

Any Motorhome/Motor Caravan, from the Website you quoted -

Motorhomes
Motorhomes or motor caravans are classed as goods vehicles if they:

• carry goods for exhibition and sale
• are used as a workshop
• are used for storage

My reading of that Statement is that if you used your California for any of those purposes then it would be treated as a N1 Commercial Vehicle, Body Type Van with Windows and therefore limited to the Commercial Van Speed Limits, immaterial that it has the M1 Car Classification.

My reading of that statement would be somewhat different:
“Motorhome drivers beware. Just because you drive a motorhome don’t assume you can drive at the limits above. Certain purposes have lower limits.” (They cannot know the use you are putting your vehicle to at any given time so they must use other means to determine if it is a passenger or goods vehicle.)

 

[Amarillo]

Yes, but the definition for a multi-purpose vehicle has not changed, so if you meet that criteria, then not classed as a commercial ?
So instead of trying to argue its a Motorhome, argue that it is not a commercial but an mpv.

It may or may not work, but it seems that a purpose of the 2007 directive is to partition motorhomes into goods vehicles and passenger cars. Steve’s vehicle is N1 and that is his obstacle regardless of motor caravan or MPV body type.

Now it might be that like us here DVLA and TfL have different interpretations of the legislation, or that even individuals interpret the legislation differently when reviewing it. I recall the gargantuan effort I had to put in to convince the head of Greenwich Schools Admissions that she was wrong to say we lived overseas when we were travelling around Europe.

People can be mistaken in what they believe to be true.

My certainty in this matter is wavering, but I am still well over 50% certain that M1/N1 is definitive for speed limits as well as for passage through the Rotherhithe Tunnel.

 

[WelshGas]

It may or may not work, but it seems that a purpose of the 2007 directive is to partition motorhomes into goods vehicles and passenger cars. Steve’s vehicle is N1 and that is his obstacle regardless of motor caravan or MPV body type.

Now it might be that like us here DVLA and TfL have different interpretations of the legislation, or that even individuals interpret the legislation differently when reviewing it. I recall the gargantuan effort I had to put in to convince the head of Greenwich Schools Admissions that she was wrong to say we lived overseas when we were travelling around Europe.

People can be mistaken in what they believe to be true.

My certainty in this matter is wavering, but I am still well over 50% certain that M1/N1 is definitive for speed limits as well as for passage through the Rotherhithe Tunnel.

Well I'm afraid on this particular matter you are incorrect.

As has been mentioned there are 2 exceptions to the N1 Speed Limit Limitation, MPV and Motor Caravan.

End Of.

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">via GIPHY</a></p>

 

[Digger]

The first post was in respect of new application to change V5 and non acceptance of DVLA to change to motorhome or mpv. It seems then that van with windows or any transporter based conversion not changed is limited to lower speed limits. What is apparent is if we 'intelligent' people are confused then it is obvious DVLA needs to get its act together.

 

[B J G]

It would appear that the UK has got itself into a complete mire on how to define vehicle speed limits whereas the majority of other European countries have a simple weight based speed limit criteria. Under 3.5 tonnes is same as cars and over 3.5 tonnes has lower limits.

 

[andyinluton]

The speed limits in the UK are simple.

If its Body type Motor Caravan its car limits irrespective of M1 or N1

If its registered M1 any body type its car limits

If its registered N1 as body type window van it falls under the dual purpose vehicle category if certain criteria are met, in the case of a VW transporter - it must have a second row of seats, seating area has to be at least 1/3 of the inside area & weigh under 2040kg empty. If it meets those requirements its car limits.

I seem to remember from my conversion days that T32 vans were too heavy to use are a basis for a conversion and get the car limits.

I wouldn't want to argue in court what speed limit applies with a N1 van conversion where the rear seats have been removed temporarily.

Nothing in the above affects Californias.

The other thing that N1 drivers need to watch is any differences in speed limits abroad. As in Spain for example a van is 10kmh lower limit on out of town roads & 20kmh slower on the motorway.


Standard speed limits (unless otherwise stated by traffic signs) [km/h]


I don't still have the correspondence still, but I used to have a N1 motorhome re-plated at 3750kg but unladen weight of under 3025kg that was subject to car limits and could use the outside lane of the motorway. I did extensive research at the time & had written confirmation from DVLA that it was correct.

 

[B J G]

Motorway outside lane (3 or more lanes) up to 7.5 tonnes can use. weight rather than type restriction in that instance. Usual trailer ban rule also applies.

 

[Amarillo]

The speed limits in the UK are simple.

If its Body type Motor Caravan its car limits irrespective of M1 or N1

If its registered M1 any body type its car limits

If its registered N1 as body type window van it falls under the dual purpose vehicle category if certain criteria are met, in the case of a VW transporter - it must have a second row of seats, seating area has to be at least 1/3 of the inside area & weigh under 2040kg empty. If it meets those requirements its car limits.

I seem to remember from my conversion days that T32 vans were too heavy to use are a basis for a conversion and get the car limits.

I wouldn't want to argue in court what speed limit applies with a N1 van conversion where the rear seats have been removed temporarily.

Nothing in the above affects Californias.

The other thing that N1 drivers need to watch is any differences in speed limits abroad. As in Spain for example a van is 10kmh lower limit on out of town roads & 20kmh slower on the motorway.


Standard speed limits (unless otherwise stated by traffic signs) [km/h]


I don't still have the correspondence still, but I used to have a N1 motorhome re-plated at 3750kg but unladen weight of under 3025kg that was subject to car limits and could use the outside lane of the motorway. I did extensive research at the time & had written confirmation from DVLA that it was correct.

I’m back to thinking the same way as you.

TfL have a binary system for passage through the Rotherhithe Tunnel. Goods vehicle > 2T banned; passenger vehicles and goods vehicles < 2T allowed.

M class motor caravans are permitted.

N class motor caravans > 2T are not permitted.

DVLA use a non-binary system for speed limits which has a separate category for M1 and N1 motorhomes. These are identified by body type, and both classes of motorhome have the same limits with three listed exceptions dependent on the use as a goods vehicle.

It is not true to say that body type motor caravan allows your vehicle to be treated as a car for traffic regulations, only if there is a specific motorhome category will they be treated differently. Examples include parking on Swanage seafront and national speed limits.

Is this now correct?

 

[Neuon2003]

The London Tribunal Adjudicator's decision is nothing more than a decision made on that day, for that case, by that person, on those facts and on the evidence presented. London Tribunal Adjudicators are not bound by each others decisions; each case is heard on its individual merits. The appeal was about what is a goods vehicle for the purposes of the specific Rotherhithe TRO. It was not about speed limits.

London Tribunal appeals are an evidence game, and one which TfL et al are experts at. They have the advantage of responding to the evidence submitted by an appellant. Even if you win that battle, you then have to overcome the appeal process ("I am not persuaded by the evidence presented"). It stretches my imagination to believe that the Environment and Traffic Adjudicators do not try their hardest to find for London Local Authorities and Transport for London. There is a very limited review process of Adjudicator's decisions, with a high threshold. London Tribunals is a service provided by London Councils.

The presence of Vehicle Category N1 on the V5C in the 'Rotherhithe Tunnel" thread (Here) made it very easy for the Adjudicator to arrive at the desired decision. The London Tribunal Adjudicator made much of what the original construction of the vehicle was (i.e. once a goods vehicle, always a goods vehicle). In HMRC tax cases Tribunals have taken a contrary view (e.g. a VW combi is a private car Coca Cola vs. HMRC ).

I look forward to seeing how TfL and London Tribunals handle a case like ejmoores where the V5C is silent on vehicle category, the vehicle model is a California, is recorded as exempt from Type Approval and the body type says "motor caravan". As TfL said in its Case Appeal Summary (Here) and commented on by Amarillo:

Where 'vehicle type' information is not held on the V5C or by the DVLA other factors can be used to establish if a vehicle is a goods vehicle for the purposes of the restriction, this includes but is not limited to the vehicle make, model, body type, and even vehicle taxation category.

 

[Neuon2003]

The speed limits in the UK are simple.

If only.

Type M1 = nominally the most certain, unless it is a Motorhome or motor caravan being used for the purpose of a goods vehicle (as above).
Type N1 = uncertainty, especially with a motor caravan body description.
Type not recorded = uncertainty

 

[B J G]

The speed limits in the UK are simple.

If its Body type Motor Caravan its car limits irrespective of M1 or N1

If its registered M1 any body type its car limits

If its registered N1 as body type window van it falls under the dual purpose vehicle category if certain criteria are met, in the case of a VW transporter - it must have a second row of seats, seating area has to be at least 1/3 of the inside area & weigh under 2040kg empty. If it meets those requirements its car limits.

I seem to remember from my conversion days that T32 vans were too heavy to use are a basis for a conversion and get the car limits.

I wouldn't want to argue in court what speed limit applies with a N1 van conversion where the rear seats have been removed temporarily.

Nothing in the above affects Californias.

The other thing that N1 drivers need to watch is any differences in speed limits abroad. As in Spain for example a van is 10kmh lower limit on out of town roads & 20kmh slower on the motorway.


Standard speed limits (unless otherwise stated by traffic signs) [km/h]


I don't still have the correspondence still, but I used to have a N1 motorhome re-plated at 3750kg but unladen weight of under 3025kg that was subject to car limits and could use the outside lane of the motorway. I did extensive research at the time & had written confirmation from DVLA that it was correct.

Motorhomes over 3.05 tonnes are subject to lower speed limits. Ref. https://www.gov.uk/speed-limits

Just adds to the uncertainty.

 

[Spottydog]

The biggest problem is the number of sites now insisting V5 must say motor caravan or they will not let you on. I now carry a copy of my V5. Worst culprit is site at Wells next the Sea in Norfolk. I had to show V5 even in a Cali, so not even a conversion!

 

[andyinluton]

Motorhomes over 3.05 tonnes are subject to lower speed limits. Ref. https://www.gov.uk/speed-limits

Just adds to the uncertainty.

No you haven't read it correctly. Its motorhomes with an unladen weight of over 3.05 tonnes are subject to lower limits.

The laden weight can be anything up to 7.5tnne & its whatever the van is plated at, although that's a hell of a lot of holiday gear / additional people.

Your typical 6 berth family van squeezes under the 3.05 tonnes & when registered you make the choice of registering at 3.8tonne or 3.5 depending on license held.

 

[andyinluton]

Motorway outside lane (3 or more lanes) up to 7.5 tonnes can use. weight rather than type restriction in that instance. Usual trailer ban rule also applies.

Theoretically yes, but all goods vehicles 3.5T + from euro3 onwards, all minibuses, coaches etc have speed limiters. Any vehicle with a speed limiter is prohibited from the 3rd lane.

When you take all those out you are left with just Motorhomes, fire engines & ambulances and possibly one or two other anomilies.

 

[Neuon2003]

Interesting call from the Dealer this morning as a follow-up to a request for information I asked VWCS for 10 days ago. I have a factory order in process and asked VWCS for information about the reasons for the DVLA body type change to MPV and if they could provide support with the ABI, C&MC et al regarding the consequences for specialist insurance (i.e. touring insurance) and prohibited access to some camp sites.

VWCS initially said last week that this change was due to a DVLA internal policy change, outside their control, which they had been unaware of before my call. VWCS were persuaded last week to escalate this to VWCS senior management after I asked whether DVLA's legal classification as MPV meant the VW California could no longer be marketed/referred to as a camper van.

I was called today by the dealership and told that, due to the escalation, it had been established that the change was due to a VW error with the input of an incorrect MVRIS code when the California model is imported. I was told that VWCS is in the process of addressing this and to wait out. DVLA has confirmed MVRIS is an SMMT database (Here).