Electric Scooters

[Lightning]

Yes, the knob head wankers on them.

Go back a year or so ago and I was making similar comments in a cycling thread.

No matter what the device as long as they are easily acquired and so casually regulated it will attract those who intentionally or otherwise will use them in a way that they become a menace to other users of whatever common space they are being used in.

This has been an excellent discussion and I am particularly impressed with some of Tom's (@Amarillo) arguments for urban traffic restructuring. In that context I can certainly see a most useful application for the devices we are discussing.

Oh well, you were a little too slow to edit your post.

 

[Amarillo]

Government urged to take action over the 'menace' of e-scooters and halt their UK roll-out

Transport bosses have suggested that e-scooters could be 100 times more dangerous than bicycles, while campaigners insist they are terrorising people on pavements

inews.co.uk

Make of it as you wish. Kent Police believe they might have a significant potential to be dangerous.

The same could be said of the yet to be invented hover board.

 

[WelshGas]

No you still don’t get it.

Here a Carroll diagram might help, but as I’m on Tapatalk it’s not so easy.

Driving can be categorised in four ways:
1. Lawful and tolerated
2. Lawful and not tolerated
3. Unlawful and tolerated
4. Unlawful and not tolerated

1. Is normal driving within the law, such as me crossing the pavement to access my driveway.
2. @WelshGas gave an example of drivers passing traffic queues for a tunnel on the inside then cutting in crossing broken white lines. Other examples would include tailgating, but not to the extent of being dangerous driving.
3. Includes driving at up to 10% + 2mph above the speed limit with no further aggravating factors, and driving on the pavement to park.
4. Driving at excessive speed, drink driving.

#1 and #3 are extremely common.

#2 is fairly rare (though WG might argue that is is common and have a point).

#4 is rare.

The same is likely to be true of e-scooter use if it is made widely legal and regulated. There will be unlawful but tolerated use. People will still complain about their unlawful use but the authorities will turn a blind eye, just as they do to the driving on the pavement outside my house.

A very rare sight! Just this second.

Driving is the controlled operation and movement of a vehicle, including cars, motorcycles, trucks, buses, and bicycles. Permission to drive on public highways is granted based on a set of conditions being met and drivers are required to follow the established road and traffic laws in the location they are driving

Driving - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Notice the word "movement"

 

[WelshGas]

I’d get onto the council, that pavement needs a good dose of Weedol!

It's not the only thing that needs a good dose of Weedol.

 

[andyinluton]

No you still don’t get it.

A very rare sight! Just this second.

I do get it,
I would like to see your statistics, how many parked cars have injured pedestrians V how many EScooters have injured pedestrians?

 

[clarinetbcn]

I think @clarinetbcn should say something here.

Wiped out, bike and him,

and no return

There have now been so many injuries of pedestrians hit by stand up electric scooters in Barcelona that laws are now being drawn up to require insurance, license, and regular technical inspections. The fact has come out that virtually all of the scooters involved in accidents have been illegally altered to increase speed.

Barcelona has already been through this with cycle taxis, which had been taken over by a violent mob who threatened and beat the original cyclists until most withdrew. The mob cycle taxis had been fitted with illegal electric motors, and those which had been fitted with motors legally had been hacked to increase the speed. For now the solution has been to ban cycle taxis almost completely, except for a couple of short tourist routes near the beach. After having been harassed by taxi cycles speeding down bike paths that they are too wide for, and knocked down by a crazy scooterist (who is a doctor at my local hospital!) which has required a month of recovery, I feel sorry for the intelligent and responsible riders of these useful vehicles, who have seen their mode of transportation and livelihood wiped out by the irresponsible ones.

Kind of like what happened to responsible van owners because of the trashing of Scotland by irresponsible newbies during this last Covid year.

These are the scars I’m left with as a memento.

 

[GrannyJen]

Reading the arguments, and trying to ignore the insults, I'm coming to the view that yet again adding another overlay of traffic options without thinking through the management of those options is just going to lead to even more accidents and anguish.

We really do need a ground-up approach of "who and what can go where" and degrees of regulation considered to be acceptable.

Much of these arguments raised themselves in the cycling thread of a year or so ago. Again, lack of enforcement of existing regulations and lack of commitment to clearly define common usage space rather than the devices themselves were the major concerns.

 

[Joker 1299]

Things that wouldn’t be allowed if they didn’t already exist:

1. Motorcycles
2. Alcoholic beverages
3. Tobacco products
4. Diesel engines
5. Petrol engines
6. Fireworks
7. Radio wave transmissions…

Life would be pretty dull.

 

[Amarillo]

I do get it,
I would like to see your statistics, how many parked cars have injured pedestrians V how many EScooters have injured pedestrians?

One of the most common forms of injury to a cyclist comes from the driver or passenger of a parked car opening their door into the path of an oncoming cyclist.

But this is irrelevant. The danger to pedestrians comes from the car being driven on the pavement. A relatively common accident is the driver using high revs to mount the kerb and then shooting along the pavement into hapless pedestrians.

I don’t have stats, but many many more pedestrians are killed on the pavement by car drivers than by cyclists (and I guess e-scooters). But I cannot say how many of that “many many more” are killed by car drivers unlawfully driving on the pavement to park there.

 

[GrannyJen]

One of the most common forms of injury to a cyclist comes from the driver or passenger of a parked car opening their door into the path of an oncoming cyclist.

But this is irrelevant. The danger to pedestrians comes from the car being driven on the pavement. A relatively common accident is the driver using high revs to mount the kerb and then shooting along the pavement into hapless pedestrians.

I don’t have stats, but many many more pedestrians are killed on the pavement by car drivers than by cyclists (and I guess e-scooters). But I cannot say how many of that “many many more” are killed by car drivers unlawfully driving on the pavement to park there.

not to mention the dangers to many when having to go into the road to manoeuvre mobility scooters, prams, pushchairs etc. past an inconsiderately parked vehicle.

 

[Amarillo]

There have now been so many injuries of pedestrians hit by stand up electric scooters in Barcelona that laws are now being drawn up to require insurance, license, and regular technical inspections. The fact has come out that virtually all of the scooters involved in accidents have been illegally altered to increase speed.

Barcelona has already been through this with cycle taxis, which had been taken over by a violent mob who threatened and beat the original cyclists until most withdrew. The mob cycle taxis had been fitted with illegal electric motors, and those which had been fitted with motors legally had been hacked to increase the speed. For now the solution has been to ban cycle taxis almost completely, except for a couple of short tourist routs near the beach. After having been harassed by taxi cycles speeding down bike paths that they are too wide for, and knocked down by a crazy scooterist (who is a doctor at my local hospital!) which has required a month of recovery, I feel sorry for the intelligent and responsible riders of these useful vehicles, who have seen their mode of transportation and livelihood wiped out by the irresponsible ones.

Kind of like what happened to responsible van owners because of the trashing of Scotland by irresponsible newbies during this last Covid year.

This is very interesting. Particularly that it is the unlawful use or adaptation of e-scooters causing the majority of the accidents.

 

[Amarillo]

not to mention the dangers to many when having to go into the road to manoeuvre mobility scooters, prams, pushchairs etc. past an inconsiderately parked vehicle.

I agree fully. What I didn’t say in my non-Carroll diagram post is that what is and is not acceptable unlawful activity varies from person to person.

Personally I feel that all pavement parking is unacceptable - even where allowed by signs and pavement markings. If parking is allowed on the pavement proper roadside parking bays should be constructed.

 

[clarinetbcn]

Things that wouldn’t be allowed if they didn’t already exist:

1. Motorcycles
2. Alcoholic beverages
3. Tobacco products
4. Diesel engines
5. Petrol engines
6. Fireworks
7. Radio wave transmissions…

Life would be pretty dull.

Mountain climbing.

Got home last night. No internet for 3 days is healthy.

 

[Lightning]

There have now been so many injuries of pedestrians hit by stand up electric scooters in Barcelona that laws are now being drawn up to require insurance, license, and regular technical inspections. The fact has come out that virtually all of the scooters involved in accidents have been illegally altered to increase speed.

Barcelona has already been through this with cycle taxis, which had been taken over by a violent mob who threatened and beat the original cyclists until most withdrew. The mob cycle taxis had been fitted with illegal electric motors, and those which had been fitted with motors legally had been hacked to increase the speed. For now the solution has been to ban cycle taxis almost completely, except for a couple of short tourist routes near the beach. After having been harassed by taxi cycles speeding down bike paths that they are too wide for, and knocked down by a crazy scooterist (who is a doctor at my local hospital!) which has required a month of recovery, I feel sorry for the intelligent and responsible riders of these useful vehicles, who have seen their mode of transportation and livelihood wiped out by the irresponsible ones.

Kind of like what happened to responsible van owners because of the trashing of Scotland by irresponsible newbies during this last Covid year.

These are the scars I’m left with as a memento. View attachment 81042View attachment 81043

Bosch themselves sell a dongle to override the 250W power limit on their ebikes, for off road use. The label on the bike would still show it as legal. Difficult to enforce without actually measuring the power output.

 

[Borris]

Is it just me or is this thread is becoming rather tedious?

Constantly comparing the potential Escooter roll out issues to the well known failings of the car driver isn't really adding much. Surely the point is that the full implications of this hitherto illegal form of transport need to be carefully considered before it's legally allowed to add to the problems on our already busy inner city roads. (I should say that they are still illegal but their use is allowed only in areas where trials are taking place).

Numerous times I've read that the lesson learned from around the world, is to not rush the introduction of Escooters onto city streets. The advances in techknology move much faster than the ability to carry out trials, weigh up the evidence, consider the implications and properly legislate to control their use. In almost every article I have read to date, it has stated that failure to do this will lead to much bigger problems later. A point I made in an earlier post. One of the latest to speak out is Matthew Scott, Kent’s police and crime commissioner (PCC), who has called on ministers to halt the rollout and review the situation. See @WelshGas post #298.

Here's another article which says pretty much the same thing:

On another note, I live outside of Canterbury where they are currently trialling Escooters. With the city's many pubs and bars proving very popular with the +40,000 students attending the three local universities, I can see alcohol related Escooter incidents becoming a frequent thing. I suspect that Canterbury won't be the only place either.

 

[clarinetbcn]

This is very interesting. Particularly that it is the unlawful use or adaptation of e-scooters causing the majority of the accidents.

I don't quite agree. That's like saying powerful cars are dangerous...power is safe in responsible hands, it's the irresponsible and ignorant which make power dangerous, and their stupidity means everybody has to adapt to the dumbed down rules they need to protect themselves and others. That said, I can see absolutely no justification for these high speeds on stand up scooters. It's ridiculously unstable. If you want to go that fast, get a motor bike, electric or otherwise, where the gyroscopic effect of the larger wheels creates stability. But it's freaking nuts to use stand up scooters at this speed in a space shared with unmotorized pedestrians and cyclists. Any intelligent person can see this, but here we are with a plague of stand up scooterists knocking people down.

Note: I witnessed a stand up scooterist riding on the street pass a red light. A motorcycle was coming to the intersection with a green light, and when the scooterist saw him, he leapt off the scooter, which shot unattended into the path of the motorcycle. The motorcyclist slid on his hands and arms on the pavement, with the expected results. The guy on the scooter was a tourist who had rented for the day. I was a witness at the hearing.

 

[willwander]

The advances in techknology move much faster than the ability to carry out trials, weigh up the evidence, consider the implications and properly legislate to control their use.

One of the reasons why this country is still in the stone age and new technologies are developed elsewhere.

 

[willwander]

Jet packs anyone?

Is the use of jetpacks finally about to take off?

Members of the public can now pay to fly through the air like a superhero.

www.bbc.co.uk

 

[Calimili]

if it isn't of any help, in Germany there was no legislation in place to regulate electric scooters. Lacking rules it became "drive them as you please, wherever it pleases you". Than accidents start popping up with many pedestrians involved. In 70% of accidents were people crashing by themselves with alcohol involved.
Then they introduced rules, i.e. not driving EScooters on sidewalks. Very seldom enforced.
Lots of kids riding 2 up everywhere but the road. Plenty of drunks avoiding drink (car)driving. Escooters left parked like empty beer bottles on a friday night all over the place.
I was hoping for this company to get bust at some point instead there's more and more of these scooters all over town.

 

[willwander]

Humans are notoriously bad at evaluating risk.
e-scooters have a high "outrage factors' in the Sanderson formula...

Risk = Hazard + Outrage

 

[Amarillo]

Humans are notoriously bad at evaluating risk.
e-scooters have a high "outrage factors' in the Sanderson formula...

Risk = Hazard + Outrage

Love it!

 

[willwander]

Love it!

Sorry, I meant Sandman formula not Sanderson.
I think I first read it in Freakonomics

Outrage factor - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[ArunAlec]

Some feedback on the Pompey trial……
Portsmouth Voi e-scooter trial: Thirteen riders seriously injured https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-hampshire-59103961

 

[Anthony1]

We recently returned from Spain and these scooters are everywhere on the road and weaving in an out of pedestrians on the pavement. Some of them appear to go at least 30 miles and hours.