EU Referendum - 23rd June - How will you vote?

[fred]

I think the operative word here is "POTENTIAL " . Who knows what WILL happen.

If there was ever a "copy/paste" argument, this is it.

 

[WelshGas]

@WelshGas are there any international institutions or even countries that are pro leave? Can you name one that isn't pro remain?

Or is it a global conspiracy against the poor British?

Don't know , but the one thing I am sure of is that most EU countries are wetting themselves because if we leave the EU will fail, and France and Germany will have to deal with the consequences of some of the policies they forced the EU to adopt.

 

[WelshGas]

If there was ever a "copy/paste" argument, this is it.

Sorry don't get that statement. Just pointing out that the links you posted talked about "Potential " risks.
Potential risks are Theoretical risks and as such can only be proved in practice ie: the UK must vote to Leave then Theory can be put into Practice.
All other arguments about what will or will not happen are pure conjecture, not fact and can only be proved after the vote.
The question really is will we be better off in the EU of 28 ( soon to be 29 ) countries in the future or not. All these threats and promises are theoretical. The only definitive fact is if the UK votes to leave then we become a Sovereign Nation in control of our own destiny, whatever that may be.

 

[fred]

No, potential risks are not simply theoretical possibilities. They can also be risks of events that have not yet happened (and may not), for example consequences that only become real if the UK votes to leave the EU.
Could you describe for me (simply) what this "Sovereign Nation" is? Serious question.

 

[WelshGas]

No. Because you just will not accept any view that does not agree with yours. I can.

Also I disagree with your definition of Potential in relation to that article you posted. It talked about Potential risks if we left the EU. In other words, risks that were possible , not definite, hence theoretical in nature and could only be proven by exiting the EU and seeing whether they happened or not.

As you are happy to define Potential, your way, then I am sure you will be able to define Sovereign Nation, your way. However, to play along with your game.

sovereignty
in UK constitutional law,the doctrine that the monarch in Parliament is competent to make or unmake any law whatsoever and cannot be challenged in any court.The doctrine developed historically,its first major enunciation being in the BILL OF RIGHTS.Possible limitations are:

1. (i) the ACTS OF UNION;
2. (ii) the inability of Parliament to bind its successors;
3. (iii) territorial competence, being a practical limitation rather than a legal one.

By far the most significant restraint is found in the law of the EUROPEAN UNION, which asserts its supremacy in the ever-expanding matters subject to the Treaties.Enforcement of an Act of Parliament has been enjoined onthe basis of conflict with European law. The creation of thedevolved Scottish Parliament has brought about aconventional restraint of Parliament exercising its powerson matters within the devolved powers:



Collins Dictionary of Law © W.J. Stewart, 2006

 

[Borris]

here is the infographic and the source article that the moneyweek article is so dismissive of. The first link is an excellent "quick" summary.
http://www.bfna.org/sites/default/files/publications/The_Economics_of_Brexit_0.pdf
http://www.bfna.org/sites/default/files/publications/Brexit - potential economic consequences if the UK exits the EU.pdf

"If the United Kingdom (UK) exits the EU in 2018, it would reduce that country’s exports and make imports more expensive. Depending on the extent of trade policy isolation, the UK’s real gross domestic product (GDP) per capita would be between 0.6 and 3.0 percent lower in the year 2030 than if the country remained in the EU. If we take into account the dynamic effects that economic integration has on investment and innovation behavior, the GDP losses could rise to 14 percent. In addition, it will bring unforeseeable political disadvantages for the EU – so from our perspective, we must avoid a Brexit."

I suppose that in the run up to the referendum there was always going to be a never ending queue of Organisations, Politicians and individuals on both sides lining up to give their predictions of impending doom if us mere plebs vote the wrong way. However as far as I am concerned their predictions are of very little value as they cannot possibly know what is going to happen in the future any more than we can. There are so many different unforeseen factors that will come into play in the years ahead therefore IMO they should be read with a very big pinch of salt or preferably ignored.

With words like "if", "could" and "potential" used in a prediction of what might happen almost a decade and a half in the future, IMO this is a classic example.

 

[hirsty]

... However as far as I am concerned their predictions are of very little value as they cannot possibly know what is going to happen in the future any more than we can. There are so many different unforeseen factors that will come into play in the years ahead therefore IMO they should be read with a very big pinch of salt or preferably ignored.

With words like "if", "could" and "potential" used in a prediction of what might happen almost a decade and a half in the future, IMO this is a classic example.

@Borris, really? I agree that no-one can know exactly what will happen, but surely the overwhelming consensus for the economic argument that we're talking about here is almost unanimously positive towards a Remain vote? I also agree that the absolute numbers being speculated on can only ever be estimates, but the general 'down' message following Brexit is indisputable.

Just because no-one can guarantee a precise number doesn't mean we should stick our head in the sand & cross our fingers hoping for the best. The Exit campaign appear to have conceded this point - if we leave the EU it will hurt us economically & it's then a further subjective and personal decision as to "whether that's a price worth paying".

I expect the immediate consequences of Brexit to include a sharp downturn due to an extended period of uncertainty, for Nissan, Honda, Jaguar & Mini all reviewing their UK manufacturing operations if they can't seamlessly export into the EU, the remaining EU countries to close ranks against the City and look at a move to Frankfurt, and for international companies (like my US employer with 300,000+ employees in 80+ countries) to start looking at their UK operation as a second-tier territory. In business confidence and certainty is everything - if you are placing big bets on building factories & offices and hiring people you need to be as certain as possible things are going the right way.

Generally Brexit is not a rosy picture for jobs & inward investment.

Scotland would bugger off to protect their EU subsidies & we'll then need Border Controls on the A1 and passport checks at Edinburgh Waverley station trains departing to Kings Cross? Same for ferries coming in from Ireland? Razor wire across Hadrians Wall? I don't see us getting the much hoped-for control of our own immigration either.

 

[Digger]

@Borris, really? I agree that no-one can know exactly what will happen, but surely the overwhelming consensus for the economic argument that we're talking about here is almost unanimously positive towards a Remain vote? I also agree that the absolute numbers being speculated on can only ever be estimates, but the general 'down' message following Brexit is indisputable.

Just because no-one can guarantee a precise number doesn't mean we should stick our head in the sand & cross our fingers hoping for the best. The Exit campaign appear to have conceded this point - if we leave the EU it will hurt us economically & it's then a further subjective and personal decision as to "whether that's a price worth paying".

I expect the immediate consequences of Brexit to include a sharp downturn due to an extended period of uncertainty, for Nissan, Honda, Jaguar & Mini all reviewing their UK manufacturing operations if they can't seamlessly export into the EU, the remaining EU countries to close ranks against the City and look at a move to Frankfurt, and for international companies (like my US employer with 300,000+ employees in 80+ countries) to start looking at their UK operation as a second-tier territory. In business confidence and certainty is everything - if you are placing big bets on building factories & offices and hiring people you need to be as certain as possible things are going the right way.

Generally Brexit is not a rosy picture for jobs & inward investment.

Scotland would bugger off to protect their EU subsidies & we'll then need Border Controls on the A1 and passport checks at Edinburgh Waverley station trains departing to Kings Cross? Same for ferries coming in from Ireland? Razor wire across Hadrians Wall? I don't see us getting the much hoped-for control of our own immigration either.

Do not think for one moment that the people of Scotland would b****r off, as unlike some died in the wool individuals, we have free minds and would make up our own minds.

I try to remain at a distance but when some take issue with a persons right to differ it shows humans at their best. That is my issue. Sovereignty in my own country. We are not multicultural and the truth is that national identities will remain no matter what politicians and others say.
The USSR collapsed as national identities failed to agree and desired freedom. If nothing else be realistic. Some people are friendly, lots are not. Human nature has pacifist and antagonist camps in equal measure.
A federal EU will fail and fail big style. History does not change as people do not change.
My honest projection is that the whole sorry mess will collapse. Unlike some I do not fear change. I do dislike being fed rubbish by politicians on both sides. I am educated and can think for myself. I decide what I think is best and that is my choice and my right.

Quoting supposed facts by any side is one thing, but being respectful is not up for discussion.

 

[pjm-84]

I do dislike being fed rubbish by politicians on both sides. I am educated and can think for myself. I decide what I think is best and that is my choice and my right.

Agree.

 

[fred]

@WelshGas are there any international institutions or even countries that are pro leave? Can you name one that isn't pro remain?

Or is it a global conspiracy against the poor British?

Don't know

@Borris
the overwhelming consensus for the economic argument that we're talking about here is almost unanimously positive towards a Remain vote? I also agree that the absolute numbers being speculated on can only ever be estimates, but the general 'down' message following Brexit is indisputable.

I'm happy to give £50 to charity for if anyone can advise a single democratic country or international, reputable economic institution that is pro Brexit.

(The only one that I'm aware of is Russia, where Putin is extremely keen to see the collapse of the EU).

 

[WelshGas]

I'm happy to give £50 to charity for if anyone can advise a single democratic country or international, reputable economic institution that is pro Brexit.

(The only one that I'm aware of is Russia, where Putin is extremely keen to see the collapse of the EU).

He won't have long to wait, whether we stay or leave. I see the French are honouring the ideals of the EU as usual.
Of course many countries and companies are supporting the UK remaining because they are scared stiff of what may happen if we leave. Tough. I just hope the UK makes the right decision for itself, because all these Countries and multinationals couldn't care less about the UK as long as they are OK and making a profit at our expense. About time they got screwed over.
Just my very own PERSONAL opinion.

 

[fred]

sovereignty
in UK constitutional law,the doctrine that the monarch in Parliament is competent to make or unmake any law whatsoever and cannot be challenged in any court.The doctrine developed historically,its first major enunciation being in the BILL OF RIGHTS.

Bang on. The UK is ruled by an unelected 90 year German in a £multi-million hat filled with jewels stolen from other countries and a racist Greek husband. And also 800 unelected Lords and Ladies, hereditary peers, bishops, politicians put out to pasture and other mostly wealthy donors to political parties.

Given that the EU is broadly speaking managed democratically (remember the UK has almost 10% of the MEPs) , all the Leave arguments about democratic sovereignty seem a bit hollow to me.

 

[Digger]

Bang on. The UK is ruled by an unelected 90 year German in a £multi-million hat filled with jewels stolen from other countries and a racist Greek husband. And also 800 unelected Lords and Ladies, hereditary peers, bishops, politicians put out to pasture and other mostly wealthy donors to political parties.

Given that the EU is broadly speaking managed democratically (remember the UK has almost 10% of the MEPs) , all the Leave arguments about democratic sovereignty seem a bit hollow to me.

At last you show your true colours and regretfully I have to stand up and say you Sir are sad and unworthy of further comment. If you cannot show respect during discussion you have lost the argument.

 

[fred]

You do understand what a constitutional monarchic democracy is, right?

 

[WelshGas]

Bang on. The UK is ruled by an unelected 90 year German in a £multi-million hat filled with jewels stolen from other countries and a racist Greek husband. And also 800 unelected Lords and Ladies, hereditary peers, bishops, politicians put out to pasture and other mostly wealthy donors to political parties.

Given that the EU is broadly speaking managed democratically (remember the UK has almost 10% of the MEPs) , all the Leave arguments about democratic sovereignty seem a bit hollow to me.

True to your colours having lost the argument. Very UN EUROPEAN. Back to your "Remain" masters and admit defeat.

 

[Digger]

You do understand what a constitutional monarchic democracy is, right?

4 years at Uni and further educational studies does give me some insight into most things.

 

[fred]

At last you show your true colours and regretfully I have to stand up and say you Sir are sad and unworthy of further comment. If you cannot show respect during discussion you have lost the argument.

True to your colours having lost the argument. Very UN EUROPEAN. Back to your "Remain" masters and admit defeat.

Attack me if you like for holding an opinion you don't agree with but I haven't and won't insult you back. How does pointing out that the UK isn't a true democracy mean that I've lost the argument?

 

[Borris]

@Borris, really? I agree that no-one can know exactly what will happen, but surely the overwhelming consensus for the economic argument that we're talking about here is almost unanimously positive towards a Remain vote? I also agree that the absolute numbers being speculated on can only ever be estimates, but the general 'down' message following Brexit is indisputable.

Just because no-one can guarantee a precise number doesn't mean we should stick our head in the sand & cross our fingers hoping for the best. The Exit campaign appear to have conceded this point - if we leave the EU it will hurt us economically & it's then a further subjective and personal decision as to "whether that's a price worth paying".

I expect the immediate consequences of Brexit to include a sharp downturn due to an extended period of uncertainty, for Nissan, Honda, Jaguar & Mini all reviewing their UK manufacturing operations if they can't seamlessly export into the EU, the remaining EU countries to close ranks against the City and look at a move to Frankfurt, and for international companies (like my US employer with 300,000+ employees in 80+ countries) to start looking at their UK operation as a second-tier territory. In business confidence and certainty is everything - if you are placing big bets on building factories & offices and hiring people you need to be as certain as possible things are going the right way.

Generally Brexit is not a rosy picture for jobs & inward investment.

Scotland would bugger off to protect their EU subsidies & we'll then need Border Controls on the A1 and passport checks at Edinburgh Waverley station trains departing to Kings Cross? Same for ferries coming in from Ireland? Razor wire across Hadrians Wall? I don't see us getting the much hoped-for control of our own immigration either.

Yes really!

 

[fred]

4 years at Uni and further educational studies does give me some insight into most things.

I've no doubt you're intelligent. I wasn't being sarcastic, just surprised that you called me sad and unable to show respect. I assumed I hadn't been clear and so should clarify my point, which I did.

 

[Digger]

Fred said 'Bang on. The UK is ruled by an unelected 90 year German in a £multi-million hat filled with jewels stolen from other countries and a racist Greek husband. And also 800 unelected Lords and Ladies, hereditary peers, bishops, politicians put out to pasture and other mostly wealthy donors to political parties'.

I've no doubt you're intelligent. I wasn't being sarcastic, just surprised that you called me sad and unable to show respect. I assumed I hadn't been clear and so should clarify my point, which I did.

You disrespected the Queen and in most of your other posts do the same to this country.
If you cannot recognise this then that is sad.

Have your own opinions by all means but show respect and good manners to others, or accept the response.

 

[fred]

Well I didn't vote for her to be the arbiter of who is competent to "make or unmake any law" in the UK.

My point is that this is a very odd form of democracy to be choosing over a system of elected representatives, and it's even stranger to me to claim that this somehow gives us more control over our country.

 

[TwoDogs]

You disrespected the Queen

Good grief

 

[kave]

Well, as swede in one if the countries in eu that is one of the highest netto payer I really hope you stay with us in this.

 

[hirsty]

"LOL" is an over-used term on the internet, but I've genuinely been laughing out loud on the last couple of pages.

I'm packing up computing for the weekend now & we're heading out for two nights in the van up a mountain - I do hope you all get some sunshine over the weekend to untwist your knickers shining on whichever part of Europe you're in (or indeed 'out' of ).

 

[Amarillo]

What does this poster say to you?

To me it shows a defiant vulnerable person, standing up to a thug, "My vote is as good as yours".

Prominent Leave campaigner and leader of the UK Independence Party (UKIP) Nigel Farage, has accused the advertising campaign of "trying to divide society."