Goodbye Brussels, hello Burnley.

[Amarillo]

BUT the figures you quote Fred don't in themselves make that case, because what matters to people is per-capita GDP (or per-capita tax receipts, to fund public services), not the totals.

What should matter more is whether or not the £66bn a year more than covers the cost to the exchequer for providing this 7.5% with services and liabilities.

 

[VW Cali]

Then she'll have to apply, just as her Indian predecessor did, to come to the UK if she so wishes. Why should she be treated any differently to any non-EU citizen?

Why the hell would she want to come here anyway? The whole point of UKIP, Le Pen, Wildeers, and so on, in every country is immigrants out as the one final solution to all issues.

Out of interest, how do you Brexiteers feel that so many Brexiteers are such ardent supporters of Trump?

Farage has acquired a minion persona in calling Trump an alpha male silverback. Kate Hopkins die hard supporter. Rees Mogg only reluctantly pulling back now.

Opinions as to why many Brexiteers such big fans of Trump?

 

[VW Cali]

Didn't some European scientists invent the magical graphene in the UK! Did they win a Nobel or two recently? In all the hullabaloo of Brexit I've lost track of such minor events...

Send them back! Taking UK jobs and having the temerity to invent materials so non British!

No answers from the Brexiteer lot

Actually "magical" graphene invented in UK by foreign ("European?") scientists awarded Nobel prize ("European prize?") and with tremendous commercial potential. But if commercial potential fails shall we blame them?

http://www.manchestereveningnews.co...s/graphene-professor-hits-back-after-11073511

These Europeans taking our jobs when us VW Cali owners and UKIPers would have done a much better job. Farage would have invented graphene just by speaking, or Katie Hopkins would have pulled it out of her backside after running through London with a sausage in her nether regions.

Sadiq Khan Mayor of London? Oops is he British?

Great comment in London Review of Books yesterday from descendant of Holocaust survivor saying that extremist always starts in stages.

The far right of the Brexit movenent, if not all but many, are is an extremist movement with no logic but extremism behind it.

 

[WelshGas]

Why the hell would she want to come here anyway? The whole point of UKIP, Le Pen, Wildeers, and so on, in every country is immigrants out as the one final solution to all issues.

Out of interest, how do you Brexiteers feel that so many Brexiteers are such ardent supporters of Trump?

Farage has acquired a minion persona in calling Trump an alpha male silverback. Kate Hopkins die hard supporter. Rees Mogg only reluctantly pulling back now.

Opinions as to why many Brexiteers such big fans of Trump?

Who's Trump? One of your colleagues?

 

[Velma's Dad]

I'm not sure I fully understand your point. What would cause any material change in the UK's population?

Sorry if I wasn't clear. What I was getting at is simply that if the (say) 7.5% uplift in total GDP had been brought about by (say) a 7.5% increase in population through net immigration, then no-one would be any better off.

I realise that should be obvious to us wise Cali owners, however I saw percentage-of-GDP figures used several times during the referendum debate to justify immigration as an economic good, even though the totals on their own tell you almost nothing useful.

I did also then see some figures (can't remember what they were) that implied that immigration had in fact raised per-capita GDP which would obviously be a good thing. However someone else then pointed out that of course recent immigrants tend to be of working age so will be GDP-positive - but they will eventually retire and become less economically active so you have to look at the long run, and build in actuarial assumptions about increasing life expectancy etc. Unless plenty of old 'uns (both first-gen immigrants and native Brits) decide to head off for the sun when they hit 65. But will they then be able to continue to claim UK benefits from their flats in Spain... assuming they can get residents' visas for Spain, post Brexit...?

All I'm saying is, it's complicated.

 

[VW Cali]

Who's Trump? One of your colleagues?

A bizarre comment.

I will clarify the question again.

Why is there fo much mutual love and support between Brexiteers and Donald Trump, Brexiteers and Le Pen in France, Brexiteers and Wilders in The Netherlands?

That was the question. One superficial observation could be that it is far right extremisim based on demagoguery, and the demonisation of minority groups. It has been done before, most notoriously during the Third Reich, and deplorable anti-semitism. Now the anti-semitism was not even to The Reich's economic benefit. And of course severe moral issues too.

Now my question to Brexiteers is and was:

Is this only a superficial resemblance between all these far right movements in different countries? If so, why are they giving such open support to each other across countries and continents?

I mean Farage said Obama had no right to opine on Brexit but he is rushing around the US opining on Donald Trump and the forthcoming US election.

I am curious for an answer. Because it does apppeae that Brexit is the same old far right, and ultimately self harming, extremist right wing movement that has appeared in so many countries these days and done so much damage in the past.

As Churchill said, " History is one damn thing after another." There is a real danger that it will not just be shortage of Marmite and PG Tips at Tesco from Brexit that will occupy British consumers.

For example, I was reading comments in the Daily Mail about Gina Miller's legal challenge to May's decision to sideline parliament on Brexit. Now that is a perfectly reasonable legal challenge.

Of the thousands of comments posted by Brexiteers hardy any address the actual issue.

Most of them are racist comments about her appearance or tell her to go back to Africa. But she is a British citizen!

So that is what I mean by Churchill's "history is one damn thing after another."

After Brexit, will people like Gina Miller be attacked because of racial characteristics. Will she no longer be considered a British citizen as nearly all reader comments on The Daily Mail website seem to suggest should be the case?

All this talk about controlled immigration from otgr countries such as India etc appears nothing but empty rhetoric in the backdrop of the actual racial hate being thrown Gina Miller's way? Could it be that people actually resent a successful non native British citizen even if she is British? Immigration from outside the UK in such an environment?

I am asking serious questions of Brexiteers. I hope to get serious answers.

 

[VW Cali]

WelshGas, you can keep on votinh Old News on every post of mine, but it isn't.

The response to Gina Miller is today's news on Daily Mail. The legal challenge is current news. Farage, Le Pen, Wildeers, David Duke, Nicola Sturgeon are all current news as of 1030am October 14, 2016.

May I suggest you cannot/will not respond to serious questions/debate.

This unfortunately is symptomatic of some, if not all, Brexiteer approaches. It gives more considered Brexteerists a bad image.

I am sure you are capable, in your profession, or much greater sophistication in approach.

I remain open to rational and consistent debate.

 

[WelshGas]

You are the one who is typing personal comments on nearly every thread.

Why don't you turn your insults into red bold font, and then sit back and enjoy?

To grab every thread and turn it into personal attacks that are off topic does not help the topic.

On this thread: I don't agree with your views on Brexit benefits for a variety of reasons given. Address those views.

Why do I have to address my views?
Just because they don't match yours?
We have immigration controls for Non EU citizens so I think in the spirit of equality we should have the same for All. If that means we leave the EU as it is then so be it.
I voted for the Common Market back in the 70's but I did not vote for a Federal Europe. I also agreed with the founding principals of member states with similar economies joining as and when they wished. Those principals were quietly abandoned over the years as were the financial principals behind the Euro such that countries were allowed to join who had a significantly lower economic output and financial strength leading to the present state of affairs. I don't want what is rushing down the track to be something that my children have to deal with in the future.
I may be wrong but that is my opinion and my reasons for voting Leave. It may not be yours but it is mine. I may be wrong but so may you, only time will tell. Next year should be interesting.

 

[AlanH99]

A bizarre comment.

I will clarify the question again.

Why is there fo much mutual love and support between Brexiteers and Donald Trump, Brexiteers and Le Pen in France, Brexiteers and Wilders in The Netherlands?

That was the question. One superficial observation could be that it is far right extremisim based on demagoguery, and the demonisation of minority groups. It has been done before, most notoriously during the Third Reich, and deplorable anti-semitism. Now the anti-semitism was not even to The Reich's economic benefit. And of course severe moral issues too.

Now my question to Brexiteers is and was:

Is this only a superficial resemblance between all these far right movements in different countries? If so, why are they giving such open support to each other across countries and continents?

I mean Farage said Obama had no right to opine on Brexit but he is rushing around the US opining on Donald Trump and the forthcoming US election.

I am curious for an answer. Because it does apppeae that Brexit is the same old far right, and ultimately self harming, extremist right wing movement that has appeared in so many countries these days and done so much damage in the past.

As Churchill said, " History is one damn thing after another." There is a real danger that it will not just be shortage of Marmite and PG Tips at Tesco from Brexit that will occupy British consumers.

For example, I was reading comments in the Daily Mail about Gina Miller's legal challenge to May's decision to sideline parliament on Brexit. Now that is a perfectly reasonable legal challenge.

Of the thousands of comments posted by Brexiteers hardy any address the actual issue.

Most of them are racist comments about her appearance or tell her to go back to Africa. But she is a British citizen!

So that is what I mean by Churchill's "history is one damn thing after another."

After Brexit, will people like Gina Miller be attacked because of racial characteristics. Will she no longer be considered a British citizen as nearly all reader comments on The Daily Mail website seem to suggest should be the case?

All this talk about controlled immigration from otgr countries such as India etc appears nothing but empty rhetoric in the backdrop of the actual racial hate being thrown Gina Miller's way? Could it be that people actually resent a successful non native British citizen even if she is British? Immigration from outside the UK in such an environment?

I am asking serious questions of Brexiteers. I hope to get serious answers.

You talk as if all people who voted Leave have the same views as the extremists.

One of the Remainers I know said their only concern was they might not be able to bring back as much French wine from holiday. That was their only concern. Another thought there was no reciprocal health agreement before we joined the EU, there was. A third thought we wouldn't be able to buy anything from Europe again.

I don't expect you to have to justify their views, why do you expect us to justify some comment on the Daily Mail website?

Has anyone with any authority said, "Send them all back."?

 

[Velma's Dad]

I don't expect you to have to justify their views, why do you expect us to justify some comment on the Daily Mail website?

Right with you on that one Alan. I raise my eyes to heaven when I hear someone (not just on this forum) demanding that someone who voted Remain or Leave should justify or explain the positions of the other 16 or 17 million who happened to vote the same way as them in the binary referendum.

VW Cali, I actually think you are raising some general themes/questions that are interesting - I too find the 'new populism' highly disturbing and needing to be understood - but you could IMO do that more justice by not just demanding 'Brexiteers' (whoever they are) to answer it. Just my view.

 

[pjm-84]

Come on guys.... play nicely!

 

[VW Cali]

Right with you on that one Alan. I raise my eyes to heaven when I hear someone (not just on this forum) demanding that someone who voted Remain or Leave should justify or explain the positions of the other 16 or 17 million who happened to vote the same way as them in the binary referendum.

VW Cali, I actually think you are raising some general themes/questions that are interesting - I too find the 'new populism' highly disturbing and needing to be understood - but you could IMO do that more justice by not just demanding 'Brexiteers' (whoever they are) to answer it. Just my view.

I asked a very simple question. Which was very clearly explained.

I haven't had an answer.

Let me ask again v simply:

Does Gina Miller have legal rights in Britain? Or should she, as thousands of comments on Daily Mail website, from Leavers ("Brexiteers", a word used often in the media now) not only not have a right but go back to a developing country.

It is a very simple question.

If a proportion of people who voted Brexit feel this way then there are not only elements of xenophobia but mob rule in their outlook.

Would everyone have that? Hopefully not. Do x% of Leavers have such an outlook? It sure seems that way to my European friends. Based on what I read and see x being 0% seems unlikely.

Rather there is a very worrying trend where instead of stepping back now the vote is done, bigotry and close mindedness is accelerating.

I have spoken to many European friends working in the UK. Not one is happy. Nearly all feel xenophobia is at play. Even if it is not, would it not make sense to denounce comments at Gina Miller rather than take umbrage and say "I am upset at being labelled xenophobic."

Nobody is labelling any individual xenophobic. But the question was and remains whether an element of xenophobia, strong or weak, is at play.

What I pointed out was the approval and common mind set of many far right groups across Europe and the USA with UKIP and as well Brexit. These are not a matter of opinion but public record.

 

[VW Cali]

You talk as if all people who voted Leave have the same views as the extremists.

One of the Remainers I know said their only concern was they might not be able to bring back as much French wine from holiday. That was their only concern. Another thought there was no reciprocal health agreement before we joined the EU, there was. A third thought we wouldn't be able to buy anything from Europe again.

I don't expect you to have to justify their views, why do you expect us to justify some comment on the Daily Mail website?

Has anyone with any authority said, "Send them all back."?

You have missed the while point, inadvertently or otherwise.

I didn't ask anyone to justify all the Remainers or Leavers. I asked whether thousands of comments from Leavers on a well known website about Gina Miller indicate that not only is xenophobia at play jn some, but as well a worrying approach to law.

The logical consequence of the majority of comments on the Daily Mail website are that Gina Miller does not have any legal rights in the UK because of her background and racial origins.

I find this disturbing.

I then noticed that the Leave campaign has tremendous support from far right political groups in US and Europe. Mr Farage himself had previously sought an alliance with an extreme right Polish political group with a record for anti-semitic behaviour and beliefs.

By saying, I don't have to answer for others, important questions are being missed.

Who will stick up for Gina Miller's rights under UK Law? Only Remainers? I personally think if xenophobia does not drive Leave then both Leavers and Remainers need to stand up for Gina Miller's legal rights.

Because if we do not, there is a very slippery road awaiting us.

 

[Neilgbj]

You have missed the while point, inadvertently or otherwise.

I didn't ask anyone to justify all the Remainers or Leavers. I asked whether thousands of comments from Leavers on a well known website about Gina Miller indicate that not only is xenophobia at play jn some, but as well a worrying approach to law.

The logical consequence of the majority of comments on the Daily Mail website are that Gina Miller does not have any legal rights in the UK because of her background and racial origins.

I find this disturbing.

I then noticed that the Leave campaign has tremendous support from far right political groups in US and Europe. Mr Farage himself had previously sought an alliance with an extreme right Polish political group with a record for anti-semitic behaviour and beliefs.

By saying, I don't have to answer for others, important questions are being missed.

Who will stick up for Gina Miller's rights under UK Law? Only Remainers? I personally think if xenophobia does not drive Leave then both Leavers and Remainers need to stand up for Gina Miller's legal rights.

Because if we do not, there is a very slippery road awaiting us.

Strangely I do find your various extreme ramblings on this forum entertaining......for a short time.....however....I voted remain but would never suggest that all those who voted to leave are xenophobic, they aren't and voted according to their conscience. Of course we need to be cautious of, and oppose, extremism in any form...... The Daily Mail is not exactly renowned for accurate, unbiased journalism....

 

[GrannyJen]

I think that this thread has run it's course. The last few postings (deleted) have demonstrated that constructive debate is being replaced with personal digs and jibes that is having an adverse affect on the spirit of this forum.