I feel awful... But I’m back where I started!

[Deejossi]

So, you entered into a contract, you and the other party were both OK with the terms. Now without a care for the other party you decide to breach the contract. Is that about right ?

You now purchase a Cali that you have seen and proudly put on here what you have done. You better hope the other party to the contract does not see what you have done, he or she may decide to take action against you for breach of contract.

If all this is correct, your the type of consumer that business needs protecting against.

Wow! What an amazing view you must have up there on your moral high ground.

At no point have I indicated that any of this took place without a care for the other party. Quite the opposite in fact. Things happened beyond my control which the dealer was aware of and yes, regrettably I had to pull out of the purchase.

As it turns out, there is no breach of contract on my side. I have been free this whole time to change my mind (without reason) AND ask for my deposit back if I so wished.

The dealer should have provided me with full cancellation rights under the distance selling rules and did not do this, and I have been informed that this is an offence.

I still haven’t heard from the dealer. Maybe he’s concerned I will ask for my deposit back, which I have no have no desire to do.

My sleepless nights and worry have been unnecessary this whole time and I’m relieved that armed with this knowledge, I am free to go and enjoy Doris who, for your information was £20k cheaper than the other van and therefore affordable.

I’m not sure the industry needs protecting against consumers like me. In fact over the years, the industry has done very well out of me, and on this occasion (the first!) it did not.

 

[Deejossi]

I'm always amazed when my Cali looks disgusting inside - mud and grass on the carpets and the seats etc - then I vacuum it and wipe the seats with some polish wipes - and suddenly it looks wonderful again - in spite of it now being 11 years old!

She’s coming up a treat BikerGran. I’m still tackling the carpets

 

[Lloydfred]

Wow! What an amazing view you must have up there on your moral high ground.

At no point have I indicated that any of this took place without a care for the other party. Quite the opposite in fact. Things happened beyond my control which the dealer was aware of and yes, regrettably I had to pull out of the purchase.

As it turns out, there is no breach of contract on my side. I have been free this whole time to change my mind (without reason) AND ask for my deposit back if I so wished.

The dealer should have provided me with full cancellation rights under the distance selling rules and did not do this, and I have been informed that this is an offence.

I still haven’t heard from the dealer. Maybe he’s concerned I will ask for my deposit back, which I have no have no desire to do.

My sleepless nights and worry have been unnecessary this whole time and I’m relieved that armed with this knowledge, I am free to go and enjoy Doris who, for your information was £20k cheaper than the other van and therefore affordable.

I’m not sure the industry needs protecting against consumers like me. In fact over the years, the industry has done very well out of me, and on this occasion (the first!) it did not.

Although I don't agree this forum is the place to have a moral argument. I can see both points, the O.P posted about running into difficulty in meeting their part of an agreement to purchase goods from another. I do think that berndros was a little over the top with the style of posting.

However several points that I feel are valid in this situation are.

1, distance selling is designed to protect the buyer, when goods arrive and are not as first thought. I presume you were well aware of what the Cali is and what was being supplied to you.

2, Distance selling is not a fall back if you change your mind and your O.P suggested that you were prepared to accept the loss of deposit, as your circumstances had changed. I now get the feeling from your last post, you have now researched your rights and will now move to recover your deposit.

If you phoned the dealer or agreed to place your order over the internet, you could argue that you agreed to purchase at distance. If you sat in their showroom and entered into a formal agreement, then for me this is not distance selling.

Berndros was right in a way, business is tough and although we are all very happy you chose the correct path, the dealer did holdup his side of the agreement. Yes there is an argument that he can sell on the product. However it's likely it will be sold at a discount as it is winter and the market is slow at this time. If it's not sold on, the van is most likely already been registered and again losing value. So the moral question stands!

 

[BikerGran]

Although I don't agree this forum is the place to have a moral argument. I can see both points, the O.P posted about running into difficulty in meeting their part of an agreement to purchase goods from another. I do think that berndros was a little over the top with the style of posting.

However several points that I feel are valid in this situation are.

1, distance selling is designed to protect the buyer, when goods arrive and are not as first thought. I presume you were well aware of what the Cali is and what was being supplied to you.

2, Distance selling is not a fall back if you change your mind and your O.P suggested that you were prepared to accept the loss of deposit, as your circumstances had changed. I now get the feeling from your last post, you have now researched your rights and will now move to recover your deposit.

If you phoned the dealer or agreed to place your order over the internet, you could argue that you agreed to purchase at distance. If you sat in their showroom and entered into a formal agreement, then for me this is not distance selling.

Berndros was right in a way, business is tough and although we are all very happy you chose the correct path, the dealer did holdup his side of the agreement. Yes there is an argument that he can sell on the product. However it's likely it will be sold at a discount as it is winter and the market is slow at this time. If it's not sold on the van is most likely already been registered and again losing value. So the moral question stands!

If you're going join others on that moral high ground it would be as well to read thoroughly before commenting

I still haven’t heard from the dealer. Maybe he’s concerned I will ask for my deposit back, which I have no have no desire to do.

 

[Lloydfred]

If you're going join others on that moral high ground it would be as well to read thoroughly before commenting

I don't say I was joining the moral high ground. I was mearly commenting on how I interpreted the following statement from the original poster.

"The dealer should have provided me with full cancellation rights under the distance selling rules and did not do this, and I have been informed that this is an offence."

I also took care to be objective whilst pointing out the possible result of this situation for the other party! So I guess you didn't read my entire post. Let's be totally Frank about it, someone's going to take a hit on it. The dealer ordered it, VW built it, the dealer took delivery and is now holding the baby.

So let's not confuse reality and an objective oppinion with attacking the O.P

 

[BikerGran]

I'm not happy about letting that go without replying but it's probably best that I do.

 

[Lloydfred]

I'm not happy about letting that go without replying but it's probably best that I do.

And I'll just sit in the corner and try not to have an oppinion!

 

[andyinluton]

"The dealer should have provided me with full cancellation rights under the distance selling rules and did not do this, and I have been informed that this is an offence."

I

If you met the dealer face to face prior to placing the order distance selling regulations do not apply, so if the dealer wants to complete the contract you may need to get proper legal advice.

If anyone wants to get too nit picky DSR was replaced by CCR

You say you haven't heard from the dealer yet, it could be that he's just reading this forum waiting to see what approach you are going to take. on the other hand he might be touting "your van" around the market to see how much of a hit he's going to take before he comes after you.

Have you formally written to the dealer to confirm you are cancelling your order?

To be honest if I was the dealer I would be pretty upset, its one thing to claim change of circumstances etc which would elicit a fair amount of sympathy, but to announce to the world a day later that you've spent £30k+ on a different vehicle doesn't sound like someone who's having a hard time.

 

[BikerGran]

It's a helluva lot less than 60k!

 

[WelshGas]

If you met the dealer face to face prior to placing the order distance selling regulations do not apply, so if the dealer wants to complete the contract you may need to get proper legal advice.

If anyone wants to get too nit picky DSR was replaced by CCR

You say you haven't heard from the dealer yet, it could be that he's just reading this forum waiting to see what approach you are going to take. on the other hand he might be touting "your van" around the market to see how much of a hit he's going to take before he comes after you.

Have you formally written to the dealer to confirm you are cancelling your order?

To be honest if I was the dealer I would be pretty upset, its one thing to claim change of circumstances etc which would elicit a fair amount of sympathy, but to announce to the world a day later that you've spent £30k+ on a different vehicle doesn't sound like someone who's having a hard time.

It's a helluva lot less than 60k!

I think both of you need to read the OP's 1st post. It was a Conversion he was buying not a California and no price was mentioned.

 

[BikerGran]

I think both of you need to read the OP's 1st post. It was a Conversion he was buying not a California and no price was mentioned.

 

[andyinluton]

I think both of you need to read the OP's 1st post. It was a Conversion he was buying not a California and no price was mentioned.

On the contrary , I think you need to read all the OPs posts.

Why does it make difference if its a cali or a conversion that he's buying? & he did mention a price.

"I put a deposit down on a T6 conversion that I fell in love with at local show." = not distance selling

" I am free to go and enjoy Doris who, for your information was £20k cheaper than the other van and therefore affordable" - he's said Doris is an older second hand Cali, therefore I've made a reasonable guess at say £30k as he's said its £20k cheaper than a new T6 conversion. It may have been as little as £20k but we are not talking about changing to a £500 MOT failure transit.

What haven't I read?

 

[WelshGas]

On the contrary , I think you need to read all the OPs posts.

Why does it make difference if its a cali or a conversion that he's buying? & he did mention a price.

"I put a deposit down on a T6 conversion that I fell in love with at local show." = not distance selling

" I am free to go and enjoy Doris who, for your information was £20k cheaper than the other van and therefore affordable" - he's said Doris is an older second hand Cali, therefore I've made a reasonable guess at say £30k as he's said its £20k cheaper than a new T6 conversion. It may have been as little as £20k but we are not talking about changing to a £500 MOT failure transit.

What haven't I read?

You have read it but also made suppositions without any evidence to support them.
A California with a filthy interior would have to be very well priced in todays market.
I find it very surprised that the "Conversion Company " has not been in contact. In fact does the vehicle exist? Plenty of stories on the T4/5 forum of converters at shows who take deposits and never deliver.
I think there is more to this saga that we are not privy too. Just my personal view.

 

[andyinluton]

"popped a deposit on a T28 SWB 150 Highline DSG conversion instead in Blackberry"


"I’ve bought it from a Cornish conversion company called MalVW. I didn’t plan on buying one until Feb next year (when I can actually afford it!) It’s currently one of their 17 plate show vans and when I found out that VW had stopped making that colour, I bit the bullet and put a deposit on it!"

I made suppositions with further information gleaned from other public sources - if you frequent two forums you get twice as many parts of the story.

Also admits when putting down the deposit that she couldn't afford it!

My sympathy for the dealer is increasing.

 

[kurienp]

"popped a deposit on a T28 SWB 150 Highline DSG conversion instead in Blackberry"


"I’ve bought it from a Cornish conversion company called MalVW. I didn’t plan on buying one until Feb next year (when I can actually afford it!) It’s currently one of their 17 plate show vans and when I found out that VW had stopped making that colour, I bit the bullet and put a deposit on it!"

I made suppositions with further information gleaned from other public sources - if you frequent two forums you get twice as many parts of the story.

Also admits when putting down the deposit that she couldn't afford it!

My sympathy for the dealer is increasing.

We should form a CIT - California Investigation Team.

Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk

 

[Lloydfred]

Again in my opinion, the fact it's a conversation is irelavint. In fact you could argue it's worse, as conversation companies don't have the might of the VW brand behind them like a dealership does.

The OP admits he put down a deposit on a conversation whilst knowing they couldn't afford it. They say they told the dealer of their financial position at that time. The dealer then sources a base vehicle and starts the conversation. I'm not sure about anyone here, but I find it hard to believe the OP didn't fallow the build process with updates etc.

I also find it hard to believe the dealer would enter into an agreement with the possibility of not getting paid. A further point that concerns me, is the fact the OP failed to inform the dealer that payment was not possible. Everyone watches the bank balance on an upcoming purchase. Who leaves informing the other party they can't pay until the eleventh hour?

I think Welshgas is correct though as I'm starting to suspect the entire story is BS!

 

[andyinluton]

I read "its one of their 17 plate show vans" in conjunction with "a T6 conversion that I fell in love with at local show" as being a converters demonstrator. Therefore already built but not available for delivery for a while.

 

[MickyTwoPints]

"I put a deposit down on a T6 conversion that I fell in love with at local show." = not distance selling

My understanding of the rules is that the Consumer Contracts Regulations 2013 which an earlier poster rightly mentioned have superseded the Distance Selling Regulations, applies where a trader is not selling from a business premises. I assume a "show" is not considered business premises and therefore, the rules apply.

The buyer therefore has 14 days after delivery to cancel the contract, without reason. Whether or not you think that's fair, it's my understanding that them's the rules and as we all know, rules is rules.

 

[andyinluton]

"I assume a "show" is not considered business premises" - is the bit that the courts haven't decided yet.

Current thinking is that the fair becomes the traders business premises for the day and the legal bods seem to agree if you buy, pay and take it away, that is a normal sale the same as going into a showroom. So classed as an onsite sale.

What there doesn't seem to be full agreement on is whether the same applies if you place the order at the fair & take delivery later, or place the order as a result of a viewing at the fair, with some arguing that that is no different to the dealer moving premises.

There hasn't been a test case in court yet, presumably because of the costs involved, I presume we have to wait for someone trying to get their £0.5million deposit back on a boat bought at the boat show to make it worth going to court.




The argument seem to stem from street markets.
A stall on a weekly street market is a business premises
A stall on a monthly street market is a business premises
So is a stall on a once a year market a business premises?
Would only having a stall once at a weekly market stop it being a business premises?


Anyway enough of the legal stuff, the only people that benefit from that are the lawyers ( & I rank them down with estate agents, bankers & directors of Carillion)

I just think its wrong to enter into a contract whilst knowing you are not in a position to fulfil it, more so with a small trader than large corporate.

 

[Jay586]

And then optimally, rather than worry, get in touch & sort the issue out at the first opportunity. Gives the seller time to advertise.

Converters take quite a lot of risk, as the parts are quite costly.

Stuff happens, the problem comes when there is poor communication. Now if anyone knows a good builder, do let me know, the 3rd one has gone incommunicado....

 

[ChrisB]

A barrister once gave me this advice. 'If you are considering taking civil legal action, then the most important thing you need to ask yourself, is not whether you believe you are justified in taking such action, but whether can you can afford to lose your case?'

 

[2into1]

A barrister once gave me this advice. 'If you are considering taking civil legal action, then the most important thing you need to ask yourself, is not whether you believe you are justified in taking such action, but whether can you can afford to lose your case?'

Maybe good advice,but not the strongest advertisement for someone’s services I’ve ever heard.

 

[Bellcrew]

Maybe good advice,but not the strongest advertisement for someone’s services I’ve ever heard.

A solicitor friend when asked about a dispute with a boat surveyor advised it was likely that the judge would just toss a coin in that sort of one expert against another case, don't go there.

 

[Lloydfred]

I don't understand why the lack of empathy for the guy trying to carve out a living. Wonder how supportive people would be if it was their business.

 

[Amarillo]

I don't understand why the lack of empathy for the guy trying to carve out a living.

Because he is not here complaining.



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