New speed limit for central London

[pjm-84]

I would be happy with that but then you need to bring goods in and out. How?

 

[Jay gas]

I would be happy with that but then you need to bring goods in and out. How?

There is not quick easy answer to that but for starters it needs understanding from both sides of the issue

 

[pjm-84]

Currently building this in Acton. No HGVs? How many vans?

 

[Borris]

Ban hgvs from London.

That statement should set the proverbial cat amongst the pigeons

Well since HGVs are essential for both construction and for London to survive on a day to day basis I don't think your "tongue in cheek" remark really stacks up.

How about banning cyclists instead? (Retire and wait for the howls of protest and abuse). London already has a fine transport system that these riders could use but choose not to. They choose to ride into what are often clearly dangerous situations, sometimes with tragic results. Like all road users, some choose to ignore the rules of the road which are there to protect them. Unfortunately in their case they will often come off worse. I'm not advocating banning cycling in cities but merely putting a counter argument. Ban HGVs and cities would have grave difficulties. Ban cyclists and there would be very little effect apart from perhaps a decrease in accidents and deaths.

Banning cyclists is never going to happen nor am I suggesting it should. Also there is no realistic prospect of banning HGVs either. Reducing the speed limits to 20mph may have a beneficial effect if all parties concerned obey the rules. However, since many will not, I question whether it will have much effect on the accident and casualty figures. However, one effect it will have is to lower the bar at which fines can be levied, hence my cynicism.

There's my "tongue in cheek" ten penn'orth.

 

[Amarillo]

Well since HGVs are essential for both construction and for London to survive on a day to day basis I don't think your "tongue in cheek" remark really stacks up.

Since 1985 lorries over 16.5t have been banned from most of London's streets unless they have a permit.

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This ban could be adjusted to enhance the chances of other road users surviving on the Capital's crowded streets.

I think that I could support banning of cyclists from London's roads which HGVs can use without restriction provided there is a suitable segregated alternative. Unfortunately, even where a safe nearly pedestrian free segregated alternative exists, even five year old cyclists are banned from the safer alternative and would be committing a criminal offence by using the footway.

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[Calimili]

I think the 20mph limit will have no impact in cyclists being killed by HGV. These type of accidents in the city centers hardly happens at above 20mph, as the HGV would have to be a lot slower than that to make the turn, cyclist present or not.
If you are on a bike in central London, you are the smallest fish in the tank. You have to assume an HGV that you are overtaking or an HGV that is overtaking you, is going to turn on you because it hasn't seen you. It isn't fair, but that's what you need to do to remain alive. Similar rule that motorbike riders know well: assume you are invisible.

 

[Amarillo]

I think the 20mph limit will have no impact in cyclists being killed by HGV. These type of accidents in the city centers hardly happens at above 20mph, as the HGV would have to be a lot slower than that to make the turn, cyclist present or not.
If you are on a bike in central London, you are the smallest fish in the tank. You have to assume an HGV that you are overtaking or an HGV that is overtaking you, is going to turn on you because it hasn't seen you. It isn't fair, but that's what you need to do to remain alive. Similar rule that motorbike riders know well: assume you are invisible.

I think that there was an EU legislation to be enacted requiring new HGVs to have coach or bin truck style extended side windows and for the height of the driver above the road to be reduced.

I've no idea what has happened to that - or if Brexit will cancel the proposed design changes.

 

[ArunAlec]

Could be interesting if motorised traffic and cyclists are all moving at 20mph. Not sure that would make cyclist less vulnerable. Now, at least on clear roads, traffic is passing me on my bike. If everyone is chugging along at 20 keeping pace with each other I think it could be more hazardous. And, a lot of cyclists will have slow down!

 

[Borris]

Since 1985 lorries over 16.5t have been banned from most of London's streets unless they have a permit.

Google Maps

Find local businesses, view maps and get driving directions in Google Maps.

goo.gl

This ban could be adjusted to enhance the chances of other road users surviving on the Capital's crowded streets.

I think that I could support banning of cyclists from London's roads which HGVs can use without restriction provided there is a suitable segregated alternative. Unfortunately, even where a safe nearly pedestrian free segregated alternative exists, even five year old cyclists are banned from the safer alternative and would be committing a criminal offence by using the footway.

Google Maps

Find local businesses, view maps and get driving directions in Google Maps.

goo.gl

I'm not proposing a ban on anything but merely pointing out that a blanket ban on HGVs to cut cyclists injuries and deaths isn't practical. As business and commerce rely heavily on effective supply and distribution, it stands to reason that HGVs will have to retain access to inner cities. You could have fleets of vans delivering the same amount of goods instead but that won't improve the congestion issue will it.



Segregation infrastructure would no doubt restrict road space still further so is that a viable proposition? Without HGVs the number of vehicle movements and congestion would most probably increase. Would more vehicle movements increase or decrease the accident figures? Does cycling improve or frustrate the current inner city traffic conjestion when those same cyclists could be using public transport? Who knows. What I do know is cities need HGVs to operate efficiently and effectively whereas cycling is merely a personal choice. Trying to mix it with HGVs will always be risky so I doubt if these latest measures will have much effect.

 

[Amarillo]

Trying to mix it with HGVs will always be risky so I doubt if these latest measures will have much effect.

Perhaps a better design truck cab is the answer.

Why do cyclists need safer lorries? | Cycling UK

This article explains why Cycling UK believes that more must be done to improve HGV safety; and why the focus should be on lorry design and equipment (especially 'direct vision'), enforcement, and demand reduction measures.

www.cyclinguk.org

 

[WelshGas]

Around here most traffic lights have a cycle zone at the head of the queue so that cyclists were in front of the traffic. I personally believe no cyclist should be alongside any vehicle in urban/ town centre areas. Drivers are requested to keep at least 1m away from cyclists and the same should be maintained by a cyclist. No creeping up the inside at traffic lights unless there is a dedicated cycle lane.
The onus should be on both parties to use the highway safely and responsibly.

 

[Borris]

Perhaps a better design truck cab is the answer.

Why do cyclists need safer lorries? | Cycling UK

This article explains why Cycling UK believes that more must be done to improve HGV safety; and why the focus should be on lorry design and equipment (especially 'direct vision'), enforcement, and demand reduction measures.

www.cyclinguk.org

Quite possibly. I have no expertise in commercial vehicle design and I really don't know what modern aids HGVs have to augment the rear view mirrors these days. It's been many years since I drove HGVs but I'd be surprised if they don't have something like Lane Change Assist which warns the driver of other road users on their nearside.

As for cab design, that may change if different power sources come in but currently most current HGVs have high up driving positions to maximise carrying capacity or in the case of articulated HGVs to produce a compact tractor unit. Accordingly the cab is usually mounted above the engine and front wheels. If we ever get electric HGVs then you may start to see radically different cab designs. If you want the drivers located at the same level as pedestrians and cyclists then currently the engine would probably have to be relocated elsewhere like on buses. Whilst that system works well on a bus it would not be that easy to produce a workable design on a HGV.

 

[pjm-84]

Go back to the good old days of the big old "dog house" in the middle of the cab. Nicely snug in the summer, noisy and cramped. Basically you share the cab with your engine. My boyhood days were spent in AECs, Leylands and Scammells. Nice low cab on the AEC

https://flic.kr/p/2efZo4N

Then the Scandinavians came to town.