TfL to cut speed limit to 20mph

[2into1]

I'm not presenting this as fact, but just to show there are many ways data can be collected and presented. It happened to appear in the Manchester group that has so far beat off Burnham's attempt to introduce a ulez type zone. (I'm taking it as an official reply, not a fake).

 

[Amarillo]

I think you are the one clutching at straws here, or are you really trying to convince us that central London does not have the best public transport infrastructure in the country? All of which has been subsidised by all uk taxpayers. If the rest of the uk had the equivalent level of public transport, then perhaps car ownership would move from being essential to just desirable.

I never suggested that London doesn’t have a great public transport network. But having a great public transport network doesn’t stop its central streets being more congested than the periphery, generally.

I live more or less equidistant between the outer London Boundary and the congestion zone boundary, more or less on top of the S Circular. Google tells me the 10km to Kent would take me 12 minutes, and the 10km to Elephant and Castle would take 26 minutes: more than twice as long to cross inner London than outer London.

 

[Amarillo]

I'm not presenting this as fact, but just to show there are many ways data can be collected and presented. It happened to appear in the Manchester group that has so far beat off Burnham's attempt to introduce a ulez type zone. (I'm taking it as an official reply, not a fake).
View attachment 106816

Ella Kissi-Debrah is the one death attributed to pollution. (She lived just a mile from me). Her mother had to fight tooth and nail to have her death correctly attributed to air pollution.

So common are these deaths that doctors attribute them to natural causes.

Anecdotally, I had a persistent cough. It vanished during the year we spent travelling abroad. It returned when we returned.

Pollution is choking Londoners.

 

[Amarillo]

Putin was also “ democratically “ elected by the Russian people. You’ll have to work harder.

Russia election results 2018 | Statista

This statistic shows the results of the Russian Presidential election that took place on March 23, 2018.

www.statista.com

View attachment 106817

Results factsheet 2021 | London Elects

www.londonelects.org.uk

View attachment 106818

If you think that election was democratic you are more deluded than I imagined possible.

 

[WelshGas]

If you think that election was democratic you are more deluded than I imagined possible.

The Russian people believe it was, just as you Londoners do when you voted for Kahn. Putin 's election has the same validity as Kahn's. You may not agree with their choice but he was voted for by the Russian People using their form of Democratic Process. He may be the wrong person according to many but not to the Russian Voters and just like Kahn he has his own agenda and twists the facts to support his own view, just like Kahn.
Fortunately Kahn doesn't have his own FSB nor does he control the Military.

I think it fair to say You are the one who is deluded but that is to be expected.

 

[andyinluton]

I live more or less equidistant between the outer London Boundary and the congestion zone boundary, more or less on top of the S Circular. Google tells me the 10km to Kent would take me 12 minutes, and the 10km to Elephant and Castle would take 26 minutes: more than twice as long to cross inner London than outer London.

That’s absolutely amazing, you have finally admitted that driving into somewhere with a 20mph limit takes longer than driving somewhere with a 30mph limit.

We can now end this thread.

 

[Amarillo]

That’s absolutely amazing, you have finally admitted that driving into somewhere with a 20mph limit takes longer than driving somewhere with a 30mph limit.

We can now end this thread.

The A20 to Kent has a 40/50 mph limit.

The A20/A2 to Elephant and Castle has a 30/20 mph limit.

 

[andyinluton]

The A20 to Kent has a 40/50 mph limit.

The A20/A2 to Elephant and Castle has a 30/20 mph limit.

I’m absolutely amazed, you really mean that you really can get somewhere quicker when the speed limits are higher, & it takes longer when the limit is lower!

Best argument I’ve ever seen for raising the limits everywhere.

 

[Amarillo]

I’m absolutely amazed, you really mean that you really can get somewhere quicker when the speed limits are higher, & it takes longer when the limit is lower!

Best argument I’ve ever seen for raising the limits everywhere.

So if we agree that outer London is less congested than inner London, and speeds faster outside the current ULEZ than inside, what plausible explanation is there for air pollution to be improving at a greater rate inside the current ULEZ than outside other than the ULEZ itself?

 

[WelshGas]

So if we agree that outer London is less congested than inner London, and speeds faster outside the current ULEZ than inside, what plausible explanation is there for air pollution to be improving at a greater rate inside the current ULEZ than outside other than the ULEZ itself?

Is it?

Live Animated Air Quality Map (AQI, PM2.5...) | IQAir

Discover AirVisual Map, live world air pollution and air quality index (AQI) interactive 2D animated map combining PM2.5 data from public government, air quality stations, our community.

www.iqair.com

 

[Amarillo]

Is it?

Live Animated Air Quality Map (AQI, PM2.5...) | IQAir

Discover AirVisual Map, live world air pollution and air quality index (AQI) interactive 2D animated map combining PM2.5 data from public government, air quality stations, our community.

www.iqair.com

Yes.

Air pollution has fallen by half in central London, and 20% in inner London, while outer London hasn’t had the benefit of the ULEZ.

(Apologies if in an earlier post I referred to overall pollution levels not reductions in pollution levels, which is a clearer measure of the success of the ULEZ.)

 

[WelshGas]

Yes.

Air pollution has fallen by half in central London, and 20% in inner London, while outer London hasn’t had the benefit of the ULEZ.

(Apologies if in an earlier post I referred to overall pollution levels not reductions in pollution levels, which is a clearer measure of the success of the ULEZ.)

I think you would find that was more to do with the Congestion Charge than the ULEZ .

 

[Amarillo]

I think you would find that was more to do with the Congestion Charge than the ULEZ .

So you can see what’s coming next with the inner London ULEZ cordon once it becomes redundant by the introduction of the outer London ULEZ cordon?

I just wish the Mayor would be honest about his intentions.

Before too long we will have three concentric charging zones in London based on congestion and/or pollution, and cash pouring into TfL’s coffers for public transport and active travel.

 

[Velma's Dad]

Putin was also “ democratically “ elected by the Russian people. You’ll have to work harder.

What planet are you on? Are you seriously claiming Russia is a democracy? Holding elections doesn't make a country a democracy. Russia's electoral processes are massively distorted by the systematic suppression of political opposition through effective control of the media, banning of regime-critical civil society organisations, and direct use of state agencies to coerce opposition politicians, to the point of imprisonment and murder. Russia still describes itself as a democracy but nowadays scarcely bothers to keep up the pretence, and on any balanced analysis would be described as an autocracy.

Actually why am I bothering with this, actually it's bloody obvious isn't it.

 

[WelshGas]

What planet are you on? Are you seriously claiming Russia is a democracy? Holding elections doesn't make a country a democracy. Russia's electoral processes are massively distorted by the systematic suppression of political opposition through effective control of the media, banning of regime-critical civil society organisations, and direct use of state agencies to coerce opposition politicians, to the point of imprisonment and murder. Russia still describes itself as a democracy but nowadays scarcely bothers to keep up the pretence, and on any balanced analysis would be described as an autocracy.

Actually why am I bothering with this, actually it's bloody obvious isn't it.

I agree, unfortunately the Russian people don’t see it that way .

 

[WelshGas]

What planet are you on? Are you seriously claiming Russia is a democracy? Holding elections doesn't make a country a democracy. Russia's electoral processes are massively distorted by the systematic suppression of political opposition through effective control of the media, banning of regime-critical civil society organisations, and direct use of state agencies to coerce opposition politicians, to the point of imprisonment and murder. Russia still describes itself as a democracy but nowadays scarcely bothers to keep up the pretence, and on any balanced analysis would be described as an autocracy.

Actually why am I bothering with this, actually it's bloody obvious isn't it.

Elections by country - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Amarillo]

I agree, unfortunately the Russian people don’t see it that way .

I’m sure there are some in Russia who believe Putin was democratically elected in 2018. But I expect they are a minority. Of those who suspect a rigged poll there will be those who support Putin so don’t care that the poll was rigged. Of those who don’t support Putin, I expect the overwhelming majority are too scared to speak out. The few who can’t keep quiet face violence and/or arrest and/or harassment from the police or yobs.

But back to your original absurd comparison of Sadiq Khan being like Vladimir Putin. You make that comparison because you believe both were democratically elected, and you define democratically elected by the belief that at least some of the population believe the election was free and fair?

 

[WelshGas]

I’m sure there are some in Russia who believe Putin was democratically elected in 2018. But I expect they are a minority. Of those who suspect a rigged poll there will be those who support Putin so don’t care that the poll was rigged. Of those who don’t support Putin, I expect the overwhelming majority are too scared to speak out. The few who can’t keep quiet face violence and/or arrest and/or harassment from the police or yobs.

But back to your original absurd comparison of Sadiq Khan being like Vladimir Putin. You make that comparison because you believe both were democratically elected, and you define democratically elected by the belief that at least some of the population believe the election was free and fair?

Incorrect. They both have their own agendas that the general public are kept in the dark about and use the mantle of being democratically elected by the respective populations to add legitimacy and to push their agendas, bending facts and consultations to fit their cause and always blaming others for their failures.

 

[Amarillo]

Incorrect. They both have their own agendas that the general public are kept in the dark about and use the mantle of being democratically elected by the respective populations to add legitimacy and to push their agendas, bending facts and consultations to fit their cause and always blaming others for their failures.

You seem to be defining a politician, which might include a genocidal dictator, but there are other characteristics of a genocidal dictator absent in most other politicians.

 

[WelshGas]

You seem to be defining a politician, which might include a genocidal dictator, but there are other characteristics of a genocidal dictator absent in most other politicians.

Not at all. What you or I might define as a Democracy is not universally held. Other cultures have their own take on the meaning .
A Democratically elected Leader should represent All and should be transparent to the electorate.
In my opinion, both Kahn and Putin fail that test YET both were Democratically elected according to the definition of Democracy held by their respective populations and others.

" I just wish the Mayor would be honest about his intentions." as you stated.

 

[Amarillo]

Not at all. What you or I might define as a Democracy is not universally held. Other cultures have their own take on the meaning .
A Democratically elected Leader should represent All and should be transparent to the electorate.
In my opinion, both Kahn and Putin fail that test YET both were Democratically elected according to the definition of Democracy held by their respective populations and others.

" I just wish the Mayor would be honest about his intentions." as you stated.

We have had Governments in the UK elected by a minority of votes cast for decades. It is one of the features of a first past the post system.

But what no democracy does is lock up opposition leaders on falsified evidence, or just poison them. Neither do they stuff ballot boxes, intimidate the electorate or falsify ballot counts. (Although Trump tried one or more of those items above.)

 

[The Tall Luthier]

Change is always difficult, especially the older we get. I have no opinion on the politics of the matter (actually I have lots!) but a little research shows that the 30mph limit has been around since 1930.

In 1903 the limit was 20mph!

Whatever the rationale for a 83 year old decision, it’s startlingly obvious that it may not apply to now, as we live in a very different place!

There’s no conspiracy, there’s just evidence based decision making.

Will it work?
Time will tell and changes will be made accordingly, I’m sure.

As my kids say “it’s not that deep!”

 

[Velma's Dad]

There’s no conspiracy, there’s just evidence based decision making.

Will it work?
Time will tell and changes will be made accordingly, I’m sure.

As my kids say “it’s not that deep!”

+1.

If anyone is interested in more balanced analyses of TfL's strategy around road safety and what's informing it, and some of the challenges of implementing it, this was in this week's Economist (apologies for the poor snapshot):

 

[WelshGas]

We have had Governments in the UK elected by a minority of votes cast for decades. It is one of the features of a first past the post system.

But what no democracy does is lock up opposition leaders on falsified evidence, or just poison them. Neither do they stuff ballot boxes, intimidate the electorate or falsify ballot counts. (Although Trump tried one or more of those items above.)

I agree with your definition of Democracy but other countries and cultures have a different view and to say someone is not Democratically elected has to be tempered by a Definition of what you mean by Democracy and that varies from country to country , culture to culture.
In Kahns case he was democratically elected, by our definition, but he has an agenda , which you have alluded to, he has been less than transparent to the electorate, has cherry picked "facts" that support his agenda, rowed roughshod over others views and classed all those who raise objections as the lowest of the low.
Very, very similar to other " Democratically elected by their definition" leaders of countries such as Russia, Belarus, North Korea and China to name just a few.

 

[WelshGas]

+1.

If anyone is interested in more balanced analyses of TfL's strategy around road safety and what's informing it, and some of the challenges of implementing it, this was in this week's Economist (apologies for the poor snapshot):

View attachment 106835

The Economist Media Bias Rating

Learn the AllSides Media Bias Rating of The Economist. AllSides rates the media bias of hundreds of news outlets, media sources and writers.

www.allsides.com