New vs Used California

[larrylamb]

If it's the assurance of a warranty that appeals then an extended warranty can easily be bought to cover a second-hand model.

Warranty, especially for Cali newcomers is a huge appeal. I'm not aware yet of any cost effective reliable after market warranty that suits the Cali. For me, better to put some money aside for any potential roof/control panel issues etc.

 

[caligraphy]

@caligraphy , it's nothing personal and i agree on some of your views but it seems (by the responds) others also find it a weird post ( thanks for pointing me out my spelling fault , englisch is not my native language )
Think this kind of threads are a never ending story and compomises are hard to find.
I hope you get your asnwers .
Btw , i did not buy new , as in orderd myself , i got a showroommodel with few km. on and did not get to chose any options. Still happy now 6y later . 2nd hand prices are crazy .

Your English is much better than my Flemish.

Alas, some English are easily offended and being an Australian I do tend to wind people up. It's a volatile cocktail. I tried to lighten up the OP but not everyone will get it. Fortunately I have a pretty thick skin.

The high price of the T6 is driving used prices of T5s to very high levels. You bought at just the right time.

 

[caligraphy]

Warranty, especially for Cali newcomers is a huge appeal. I'm not aware yet of any cost effective reliable after market warranty that suits the Cali. For me, better to put some money aside for any potential roof/control panel issues etc.

It's a valid point. I took advantage of a VW extended warranty on my T5, which luckily covered a host of failures, but I haven't had experience with after-market warranties.

 

[Borris]

You make some valid points laced with a large dollop of artistic license.

An older california will give you exactly the same all important core experience as a brand new one and in that respect you have hit the nail on the head. It is true that over the years VW have added many options and standard features that whilst nice are neither essential nor add anything much to the basic camper van's core raisin d'etre. It also follows that the more fancy complicated features and options a vehicle has the more the potential for problems there may be. However in saying that there are "endless factory built in failures and recalls that plague a new California" I think you've have rather over egged your pudding. Most owners of new Californias don't experience many if any problems and you only hear about the problems of a very small minority. So to suggest that every new California will spend "much of it's life in the dealer's workshop" is simply not true.

I have to admit that if VW still produced the T4 2.5 diesel California then I for one would be very interested. However they don't! Time and vehicle engineering has moved on since those days. Having owned a T4 van with that same engine for nine years I can say with authority that it was one of the finest vehicles I've ever owned. It was simple, rugged and totally reliable. It never once let me down. Unfortunately good examples are very scarce these days and most have galactic mileages. Finding a T4 California in pristine condition with a reasonable mileage is becoming a very tall order so that's why many people buy a new Cali. They can have one to suit their personal preferences without having to put up with a naff tired out chintzy velour interior and half a life time of minor dents and rust. Yes, a new Cali is uber expensive and the outrageous prices paid for most options will never be fully realised at point of sale but a buyer can have exactly what they want and subject to waiting time, have it now. They don't have to scan the small ads for months on end or take numerous long journeys to view what will often turn out to be a pile of old shite. They also know that compared to other vehicles they will experience what is probably the slowest rate of depreciation of any modern vehicle. Also as many owners purchase their vans with a view to long term ownership the depreciation isn't that much of an issue.

Then there is the peace of mind you get with a new California. These vehicles are now very complicated and some issues can turn out to be very expensive to fix. As you say you can buy after market warrantees to cover mechanical breakdowns on older Californias but many of those aren't worth the paper they are printed on. Of the good ones, there are usually so many exclusions that you will often find that you aren't covered anyway. If you are lucky enough to secure an all encompassing warrantee then it will undoubtedly cost you two arms and a leg, renewable each year. With a brand new Cali you can have up to five years of total peace of mind (if you purchase the cheap extra two year extension). Providing you have followed the instructions in the vehicle hand book then everything outside of normal wear and tear should be covered.

There is nothing at all wrong with purchasing a second hand California or a new one for that matter. There are pros and cons with both choices and it just comes down to personal circumstances and preferences.

 

[EddieEagle]

[QUOTE

Alas, some English are easily offended and being an Australian I do tend to wind people up. It's a volatile cocktail. I tried to lighten up the OP but not everyone will get it.[/QUOTE]

Ah, an Aussie who has brought all us whining pommies out to play.......
Can’t seem to spell windgeing so wine will do. Enjoying this one...

 

[caligraphy]

You make some valid points laced with a large dollop of artistic license.

An older california will give you exactly the same all important core experience as a brand new one and in that respect you have hit the nail on the head. It is true that over the years VW have added many options and standard features that whilst nice are neither essential nor add anything much to the basic camper van's core raisin d'etre. It also follows that the more fancy complicated features and options a vehicle has the more the potential for problems there may be. However in saying that there are "endless factory built in failures and recalls that plague a new California" I think you've have rather over egged your pudding. Most owners of new Californias don't experience many if any problems and you only hear about the problems of a very small minority. So to suggest that every new California will spend "much of it's life in the dealer's workshop" is simply not true.

I have to admit that if VW still produced the T4 2.5 diesel California then I for one would be very interested. However they don't! Time and vehicle engineering has moved on since those days. Having owned a T4 van with that same engine for nine years I can say with authority that it was one of the finest vehicles I've ever owned. It was simple, rugged and totally reliable. It never once let me down. Unfortunately good examples are very scarce these days and most have galactic mileages. Finding a T4 California in pristine condition with a reasonable mileage is becoming a very tall order so that's why many people buy a new Cali. They can have one to suit their personal preferences without having to put up with a naff tired out chintzy velour interior and half a life time of minor dents and rust. Yes, a new Cali is uber expensive and the outrageous prices paid for most options will never be fully realised at point of sale but a buyer can have exactly what they want and subject to waiting time, have it now. They don't have to scan the small ads for months on end or take numerous long journeys to view what will often turn out to be a pile of old shite. They also know that compared to other vehicles they will experience what is probably the slowest rate of depreciation of any modern vehicle. Also as many owners purchase their vans with a view to long term ownership the depreciation isn't that much of an issue.

Then there is the peace of mind you get with a new California. These vehicles are now very complicated and some issues can turn out to be very expensive to fix. As you say you can buy after market warrantees to cover mechanical breakdowns on older Californias but many of those aren't worth the paper they are printed on. Of the good ones, there are usually so many exclusions that you will often find that you aren't covered anyway. If you are lucky enough to secure an all encompassing warrantee then it will undoubtedly cost you two arms and a leg, renewable each year. With a brand new Cali you can have up to five years of total peace of mind (if you purchase the cheap extra two year extension). Providing you have followed the instructions in the vehicle hand book then everything outside of normal wear and tear should be covered.

There is nothing at all wrong with purchasing a second hand California or a new one for that matter. There are pros and cons with both choices and it just comes down to personal circumstances and preferences.

Good post. Your points are well made. Perhaps I did use some extra eggs and a dollop of artistic licence on my own pudding. It's clear that for many the non-tangibles are as important as the purely financial considerations when deciding to buy new or used. Perhaps in later life my own views will change.

 

[caligraphy]

[QUOTE

Alas, some English are easily offended and being an Australian I do tend to wind people up. It's a volatile cocktail. I tried to lighten up the OP but not everyone will get it.

Ah, an Aussie who has brought all us whining pommies out to play.......
Can’t seem to spell windgeing so wine will do. Enjoying this one...[/QUOTE]
Don't worry, I'll play fair.

 

[WelshGas]

£60,000 California today, 2018, would have cost the equivalent of £44,000 in 2005 taking inflation into account. This doesn't take into account any currency fluctuation .

How much did a 2005 T4 California cost in 2005?

 

[Velma's Dad]

Choices are there to be made by whomever for whatever reason - some people don't want to drive (let alone sleep) in something has been driven (or slept in) before.

Yeah, some people are pretty weird like that. But seriously, would those people only ever buy a new-built house, or not want to sleep in a hotel bedroom where someone else had kipped the night before?

Another argument often run out to rationalise brand-new is that even with an ex demo "you don't know how the previous owner/user might have driven it". All I can say is that I can't think of one single thing that's gone wrong with any of our dozens of 'pre-driven' cars - within or outside warranty - that was about engines or drivetrain or anything else that could be blamed on previous owner thrashing. The things that tend to go wrong with modern cars are almost invariably the bolt-ons: eg AC pumps, alternators, fuel system components (diesels), window motors, and so on.

Anyway it doesn't bother me who drove Velma in the months before we re-homed her, her heart is pure.

 

[Bellcrew]

Yeah, some people are pretty weird like that. But seriously, would those people only ever buy a new-built house, or not want to sleep in a hotel bedroom where someone else had kipped the night before?

Another argument often run out to rationalise brand-new is that even with an ex demo "you don't know how the previous owner/user might have driven it". All I can say is that I can't think of one single thing that's gone wrong with any of our dozens of 'pre-driven' cars - within or outside warranty - that was about engines or drivetrain or anything else that could be blamed on previous owner thrashing. The things that tend to go wrong with modern cars are almost invariably the bolt-ons: eg AC pumps, alternators, fuel system components (diesels), window motors, and so on.

Anyway it doesn't bother me who drove Velma in the months before we re-homed her, her heart is pure.

Contrary to our pommy chums comments the most likely reason for buying new is the very high cost of second hand vehicles, not normally a problem with most expensive cars which depreciate at an astonishing rate.

 

[Eber123]

Good afternoon,

I think everything has its pros and cons:

Purchase a new California means I get the specification I want (or can afford), the warranty (maybe extended), the bonus of a new car. Also the wonderful experience to collect the new van from the dealer. The disadvantage obviously is the price and maybe the lead time (what is it at the moment 9 month?).

Demo models have the advantage to be almost as good as new, comes with warranty, in general similar experience as with a new van. Also it is available within days. The disadvantage is that the van comes "as is" in specification and colour. But depending on the circumstances here is money to save.

The used ones are obviously cheaper, available but have the disadvantage that there is limited input in specification and maybe colour. Also there is the issue with warranty.

We went the middle way and got a demo model (118 km on the clock). We saved ~ EUR 7,000. Without this we would have not been able to afford the van.

The main thing is that we all have choices based on our preference, available budge and in general live circumstances. Isn't it great to live in 2018 in Europe and with all the wonderful options we have?

Regards,
Eberhard

 

[Velma's Dad]

Contrary to our pommy chums comments the most likely reason for buying new is the very high cost of second hand vehicles, not normally a problem with most expensive cars which depreciate at an astonishing rate.

That might be the case for a few individuals but is surely illogical when applied to the market. With respect, you are putting the cart before the chicken.

If used Cali values are relatively high (compared to say a £70k BMW of the same vintage) that's because there's a high demand for used Calis (compared to used BMWs).

If a lot of individuals started buying new just because a used van was nearly the same price, then demand for used vans would fall and prices for them would fall.

Supply and demand, innit.

The reason expensive campervans hold their value better than expensive BMWs is (presumably) because the utility of a 10 year old camper is pretty similar to a new one, ie you can camp in it. While the 'utility' of a 10 yo Beemer (which when new was largely about pub bragging rights, TBH) is drastically impaired by the fact that the acne-disfigured trainee bookmaker* down the road now has one just like it, with bolted on stainless steel wheel arches.

I'd say that the Cali thing must also to some extent be something to do with an artificial constraint in the supply of new Calis (Hannover production limits, and the emissions fixes) that is driving the value of used ones, because a lot of folks don't want to wait 6+ months to get hold of a factory fresh one. A good game for a manufacturer in the short term, but risky in the longer term.

(* With apologies to the Turf Accountancy profession).

 

[Bellcrew]

That might be the case for a few individuals but is surely illogical when applied to the market. With respect, you are putting the cart before the chicken.

If used Cali values are relatively high (compared to say a £70k BMW of the same vintage) that's because there's a high demand for used Calis (compared to used BMWs).

If a lot of individuals started buying new just because a used van was nearly the same price, then demand for used vans would fall and prices for them would fall.

Supply and demand, innit.

The reason expensive campervans hold their value better than expensive BMWs is (presumably) because the utility of a 10 year old camper is pretty similar to a new one, ie you can camp in it. While the 'utility' of a 10 yo Beemer (which when new was largely about pub bragging rights, TBH) is drastically impaired by the fact that the acne-disfigured trainee bookmaker* down the road now has one just like it, with bolted on stainless steel wheel arches.

I'd say that the Cali thing must also to some extent be something to do with an artificial constraint in the supply of new Calis (Hannover production limits, and the emissions fixes) that is driving the value of used ones, because a lot of folks don't want to wait 6+ months to get hold of a factory fresh one. A good game for a manufacturer in the short term, but risky in the longer term.

(* With apologies to the Turf Accountancy profession).

Any number of 7 series BMW on AutoTrader today, under £25000 for 2015 models, new on the road equivalent are listed at £71177.
Your analysis is probably close to the mark but the differences are so stark that even a spotty turf accountant would be supprised.

 

[2into1]

^ Vs a 2015 SE Cali selling in a few days on the listings here asking £45,950. 3 years old.

 

[Velma's Dad]

^ Vs a 2015 SE Cali selling in a few days on the listings here asking £45,950. 3 years old.

Blimey, our 2015 SE only cost us £44,000 when it was still just nine months old in early 2016!

However we often buy our cars as ex-demos and expect to save a fair bit on factory-ordered price. I just did a check on how that would work with a typical Cali just now. Looked at a mid-spec Ocean ex demonstrator example (June 2018 reg, 250 miles) on with Citygate, versus a new build at same spec per the configurator. New price £61,181, versus ex demo equivalent £60,000 (ignoring negotiated discounts on both). So even late in season, very little price advantage there - just 2%.

By comparison, I just bought an ex-demo Audi Q2 (also June 2018 reg) stickered at £30,000 versus new price £37,500 making a 20% saving before haggling.

Not really unexpected given the Cali supply situation, but I found it interesting to see those actual figures.

 

[Stuart]

Before becoming interested in Californias I would never have considered buying a new vehicle. At the time I bought (early 2016) it was actually cheaper to buy new than nearly new. And even a 3 year model would have been close to the new price. The downside of course was the wait but thankfully mine took "only" 6 months to arrive

Looking at the original post, I can only assume that the market has changed considerably, or the OP is a bit crazy

 

[flying banana]

my life is depreciating trying to read all this shite. if I could afford it I would have a new un. simple

 

[caligraphy]

I imagine that with few competitors and some supply side restrictions VW feel empowered to pass on the full cost of the decline in the Pound (v. Euro) to UK California buyers. As I mentioned earlier, the surge in the new cost of the T6 is good news for T5 owners who have seen significant gains in their resale value.

 

[caligraphy]

Before becoming interested in Californias I would never have considered buying a new vehicle. At the time I bought (early 2016) it was actually cheaper to buy new than nearly new. And even a 3 year model would have been close to the new price. The downside of course was the wait but thankfully mine took "only" 6 months to arrive

Looking at the original post, I can only assume that the market has changed considerably, or the OP is a bit crazy

Both are true

 

[caligraphy]

my life is depreciating trying to read all this shite. if I could afford it I would have a new un. simple

I hate it when I'm forced to read something I don't want to.

 

[EddieEagle]

^ Vs a 2015 SE Cali selling in a few days on the listings here asking £45,950. 3 years old.

Blimey!
Anyone wants a 3 yr old T5 SE with a potty thrown in (and good seat covers) then come around with £46,000 and it’s yours.
I’ll go and buy a new one......

 

[Wobble’s Mum]

Thank goodness we are all free to choose either way, without needing to explain

So glad you wrote this earlier... I have just watched four of your videos on You Tube after seeing your signature. We are heading to Scotland in a couple of weeks, so it's been really nice getting some ideas of where to go - and also to have reminder to make sure we can put the roof down at a moment's notice!

Off to watch the others now...

 

[motacyclist]

We bought new because it was a pretty colour, as well as smelling nice.

We also needed to get rid of the money to save inheritance tax.

(Very entertaining thread! )

 

[caligraphy]

£60,000 California today, 2018, would have cost the equivalent of £44,000 in 2005 taking inflation into account. This doesn't take into account any currency fluctuation .

How much did a 2005 T4 California cost in 2005?

The T4 had been discontinued in 2005 and was never sold in the UK. I sold my LHD 2001 T4 in 2010 for just under half the cost of a new T5. That was roughly what I paid for it when it was 3 years old but I did buy it very cheaply compared to similar vehicles.

 

[caligraphy]

Blimey!
Anyone wants a 3 yr old T5 SE with a potty thrown in (and good seat covers) then come around with £46,000 and it’s yours.
I’ll go and buy a new one......

If the potty's even slightly cleaner than a Eurotunnel toilet you could probably ask £48k. It's a seller's market at the moment.