New vs Used California

[Geesvw]

I'm curious as to why so many buy new Californias, especially given the outrageous cost for what is, after all, just a VW Camper. That first 3 years from new costs a fair whack of depreciation just to get that new car smell. So here I will spell out my case for a used Cali and allow other members to present their arguments for a new one (or indeed, some may wish to add support to my argument).

We’ve had a T5 2008 2.5 174 from new, still in excellent condition, done 132K miles, 100K on holidays. Paid £35K and still worth £25K

I just don't see the appeal of a new car. Is it the status of being able to afford the "ker-chink" of cash hitting the kerb as it drives out of the yard for the first time, £10k less valuable than it was thirty seconds ago and just ten minutes away from its first supermarket car park rash ? Perhaps it's the endless factory built-in failures and recalls that plague a new California, meaning it'll spend much of its early life at the Dealer's workshop ? Or is it the knowledge that those ridiculously expensive options will depreciate even faster than the car itself, leaving owners wondering whether they really needed the genuine faux leather rear view mirror surrounds with California motif that came with the optional Luxury Tack package.

If it's the assurance of a warranty that appeals then an extended warranty can easily be bought to cover a second-hand model.

Essentially the California hasn't changed since Westfalia produced the T4 California (LHD only) for VW some 20 years ago. When VW took over production of the Californiafrom Westfalia with the introduction of theT5 they struggled to improve on a design that had been perfected over many decades*, but still their marketing people managed to come up with a whole bunch of unnecessary options to justify a huge price hike. Brighter colours, slicker materials, electric everything. It certainly looked the part and in their bedazzlement no-one really noticed that nothing had actually changed.

In 2004 I bought a 2001 T4 California which I kept for 6 years then in 2010 I sold it for a 2007 T5 California which I kept for 8 years. Both were bought for a mere 50% of their new cost. Both lost nothing but inflation and were sold for what I originally paid for them. In both cases they had frustrated their original owners with problems within the warranty period, particularly the T5, whereas they spent little time in the workshop during my ownership.

I bought the T5 because the T4 engine only produced 102 BHP and the T5 with a tuning box produced twice that, otherwise I'd have happily kept the T4. It had the same layout as the T5 (or the T6) that Westfalia had perfected over many years. It carried 260,000kms when I sold it and it drove like new. It was very comfortabke to drive, it had the faimiliar captain's chairs, awning, table, cupboards, beds, sink, stove, fridge and storage layouts. Brandrup even sold a host of over-priced after-market gadgets for it, many of which they re-purposed for the later T5 and T6. The spring loaded roof never relied on hydraulics or electrics, it never caught its bellows in the canvas, never failed or asked to be returned to the workshop and it popped up or down with one hand in just seconds. The screen and buttons never failed, the roof never corroded, the parking heater worked and the 2.5TDi engine in the T4 was bullet proof. Of course the 2.5TDi engine in the T5 wasn't quite as robust and 2 litre unit in the T5.2 even less so, as VW attempted to minimise their parts catalogue by fitting a modified Golf engine. The jury's out on what surprises the T6 engines will bring.

So given the main function of a camper is to.....well, camp, choosing a new California over one from the last 20 years is not really going to bring about additional comforts. The instruments may be more modern and they may be nicer to drive with more safety features but the T4 would hold its own over a T6 when it came to pitching up and camping. Finally, the older ones are funkier with far more street cred.

Don't get me wrong. I'm glad so may folks buy new as they pay the massive depreciation that allows me to buy the same car for half the price three years later. I just wonder why they choose to be so generous to a complete stranger. The least I can do is make them a cup of tea.

*Westfalia was a very old camper conversion company in the German state of Westphalia that dated back almost to the last war. I onece visited their wonderful company museum that showed the evolution of the camper from it's humble beginnings in the early 50s. It was the best collection of campers I've ever seen. Unfortunately they went bankrupt in 2010 and sold the entire collection piece by piece for the princely sum of 200,000 euros, including selling an original 1953 T1 Camperbox with just 41 miles on the clock for 41,000 euros.

 

[alstevens]

Hey Calligraphy,

can I buy your old machine anywhere ? Sounds good to me ... I am quite happy with the 2015 SE I've had for 4 years now I must say and would not be without it ..but am still wary about the complexities having had the usual saga with the roof mechanism, the control panel , the tyre warning light, the fridge,the bubbling , a minor bellows nip , and so on .. .. on the other hand ... a simpler world where you can just shove something into position ...

oh well just reconcile myself to the increasing anxiety quotient of age and enjoy the t5 whiole I can..

al

 

[ejmoore]

Interesting discussion! We bought a 4-year old Cali from a dealer (Bilbo's), which is all we could afford, and it's been great. I've always been surprised that so many people look to buy new ones.

The Cali, which we've had 6 years now, was our first campervan. It's taken that many years to figure out what we want or don't want - it would have been difficult to specify our preferences upfront for a new one without having some experience.

The idea of people not wanting to drive a used vehicle, or live in a 'second-hand' house, seems odd to me, but then we work in historic building conservation so old things are the norm, in fact highly valued!

But the discussion has made me think maybe it wouldn't be that reckless to buy new when we replace the van (which may be soon as it doesn't meet the ultra-low emission zone requirements that are proposed for London, where we live).

 

[Koops]

Warranty, Euro 6 engine, active cruise control, great residual value (for now), PCP.

I'm curious as to why so many buy new Californias, especially given the outrageous cost for what is, after all, just a VW Camper. That first 3 years from new costs a fair whack of depreciation just to get that new car smell. So here I will spell out my case for a used Cali and allow other members to present their arguments for a new one (or indeed, some may wish to add support to my argument).

I just don't see the appeal of a new car. Is it the status of being able to afford the "ker-chink" of cash hitting the kerb as it drives out of the yard for the first time, £10k less valuable than it was thirty seconds ago and just ten minutes away from its first supermarket car park rash ? Perhaps it's the endless factory built-in failures and recalls that plague a new California, meaning it'll spend much of its early life at the Dealer's workshop ? Or is it the knowledge that those ridiculously expensive options will depreciate even faster than the car itself, leaving owners wondering whether they really needed the genuine faux leather rear view mirror surrounds with California motif that came with the optional Luxury Tack package.

If it's the assurance of a warranty that appeals then an extended warranty can easily be bought to cover a second-hand model.

Essentially the California hasn't changed since Westfalia produced the T4 California (LHD only) for VW some 20 years ago. When VW took over production of the Californiafrom Westfalia with the introduction of theT5 they struggled to improve on a design that had been perfected over many decades*, but still their marketing people managed to come up with a whole bunch of unnecessary options to justify a huge price hike. Brighter colours, slicker materials, electric everything. It certainly looked the part and in their bedazzlement no-one really noticed that nothing had actually changed.

In 2004 I bought a 2001 T4 California which I kept for 6 years then in 2010 I sold it for a 2007 T5 California which I kept for 8 years. Both were bought for a mere 50% of their new cost. Both lost nothing but inflation and were sold for what I originally paid for them. In both cases they had frustrated their original owners with problems within the warranty period, particularly the T5, whereas they spent little time in the workshop during my ownership.

I bought the T5 because the T4 engine only produced 102 BHP and the T5 with a tuning box produced twice that, otherwise I'd have happily kept the T4. It had the same layout as the T5 (or the T6) that Westfalia had perfected over many years. It carried 260,000kms when I sold it and it drove like new. It was very comfortabke to drive, it had the faimiliar captain's chairs, awning, table, cupboards, beds, sink, stove, fridge and storage layouts. Brandrup even sold a host of over-priced after-market gadgets for it, many of which they re-purposed for the later T5 and T6. The spring loaded roof never relied on hydraulics or electrics, it never caught its bellows in the canvas, never failed or asked to be returned to the workshop and it popped up or down with one hand in just seconds. The screen and buttons never failed, the roof never corroded, the parking heater worked and the 2.5TDi engine in the T4 was bullet proof. Of course the 2.5TDi engine in the T5 wasn't quite as robust and 2 litre unit in the T5.2 even less so, as VW attempted to minimise their parts catalogue by fitting a modified Golf engine. The jury's out on what surprises the T6 engines will bring.

So given the main function of a camper is to.....well, camp, choosing a new California over one from the last 20 years is not really going to bring about additional comforts. The instruments may be more modern and they may be nicer to drive with more safety features but the T4 would hold its own over a T6 when it came to pitching up and camping. Finally, the older ones are funkier with far more street cred.

Don't get me wrong. I'm glad so may folks buy new as they pay the massive depreciation that allows me to buy the same car for half the price three years later. I just wonder why they choose to be so generous to a complete stranger. The least I can do is make them a cup of tea.

*Westfalia was a very old camper conversion company in the German state of Westphalia that dated back almost to the last war. I onece visited their wonderful company museum that showed the evolution of the camper from it's humble beginnings in the early 50s. It was the best collection of campers I've ever seen. Unfortunately they went bankrupt in 2010 and sold the entire collection piece by piece for the princely sum of 200,000 euros, including selling an original 1953 T1 Camperbox with just 41 miles on the clock for 41,000 euros.

 

[Velma's Dad]

Warranty, Euro 6 engine, active cruise control, great residual value (for now), PCP.

The PCP bit is interesting. Maybe not quite so common for a Cali as for a BMW 3 Series, there's little doubt PCP has kept the wheels on (sorry) the overall car market in the past decade, and particularly for the bigger/more expensive marques which have the biggest margins for manufacturers and the dealer groups.

(PCP has also been a big part of the new consumer debt bubble in the UK - rising 10% per year versus earnings growth of 3%.)

But the new-car PCP conveyor belt is dependent on used car values holding up (so PCP holders retain 'equity' to put into the next PCP deal). And so the industry is apparently now starting to offer PCP on used cars, which will presumably help to keep used prices buoyed up for a while longer. But when the music stops...

 

[MarkVw2017]

Personally, one of the main things that would stop me from changing is the VED. My Ocean was registered in March 2017 and is £220 per year VED. Whilst it wouldn’t cost a huge amount to change it for a new one, the first year VED would be circa £1700 and then £450 or whatever it is for the next 5 years. I don’t think I could do it out of principle!

But after 5 years it jumps right down to £140 so will help residuals after 5 years

 

[Elmo3]

But after 5 years it jumps right down to £140 so will help residuals after 5 years

Governments have a nasty habit of moving the goalposts. If you think in 5 years time you’ll be able to drive around in your very expensive diesel vehicle for £140 VED, I fear you may be in for a shock. It’ll be £500 at least.

 

[MarkVw2017]

Governments have a nasty habit of moving the goalposts. If you think in 5 years time you’ll be able to drive around in your very expensive diesel vehicle for £140 VED, I fear you may be in for a shock. It’ll be £500 at least.

They usually move the goal posts for brand new cars, not cars that are only 5 years old and keep rates agreed when people bought them. People are driving 20 year old cars which throw more emissions out that a plane and still pay cheap ved rates as it was 'clean' back then and less strict emissions test. Eg cars before March 1st 2001 with an engine over 1.5 litre, say, Jaguar 4.0 V8 16mpg 281g/km is £255 and you can only imagine how bad they are for the environment and cities and still loads of old big engined polluting cars on the road. HMRC need to sort the old cars out and not keep punishing people who buy the very latest and cleanest euro 6 engines.

 

[Bellcrew]

They usually move the goal posts for brand new cars, not cars that are only 5 years old and keep rates agreed when people bought them. People are driving 20 year old cars which throw more emissions out that a plane and still pay cheap ved rates as it was 'clean' back then and less strict emissions test. Eg cars before March 1st 2001 with an engine over 1.5 litre, say, Jaguar 4.0 V8 16mpg 281g/km is £255 and you can only imagine how bad they are for the environment and cities and still loads of old big engined polluting cars on the road. HMRC need to sort the old cars out and not keep punishing people who buy the very latest and cleanest euro 6 engines.

Thieves rob banks cos that is where they keep the money. Governments go after new car owners for the same reason, they must have the cash or at least the credit rating to afford that shiny new toy.

 

[Elmo3]

Thieves rob banks cos that is where they keep the money. Governments go after new car owners for the same reason, they must have the cash or at least the credit rating to afford that shiny new toy.

Exactly. They target those who can pay then reverse engineer the rationale to justify (it will probably be something to do with electric cars). People who drive £50K diesel vans will be seen to have money and be legitimate targets. People who drive knackered old Jags worth £20 will not.

 

[MarkVw2017]

Exactly. They target those who can pay then reverse engineer the rationale to justify (it will probably be something to do with electric cars). People who drive £50K diesel vans will be seen to have money and be legitimate targets. People who drive knackered old Jags worth £20 will not.

True, but they still have to also meet city emission targets so cant keep targeting nice low emission modern and clean engines and new cars? Old engines will be targeted soon surely

 

[Geoff York]

We typically don't buy a new vehicles unless there is a considerable incentive. We lost too much money on new vehicles over the years to care.

We bought the California new as I was happy with the deal and for £3k more I got the vehicle I wanted.

The price of the California has shot somewhat upwards since we bought in mid 2015 (I wonder why??). Are we prepared to pay 63k , 65k or 70k for the same vehicle. No, we're not, even though we have the funds.

 

[Geoff York]

Exactly. They target those who can pay then reverse engineer the rationale to justify (it will probably be something to do with electric cars). People who drive £50K diesel vans will be seen to have money and be legitimate targets. People who drive knackered old Jags worth £20 will not.

I’ve read some crap on here but this post takes the biscuit

 

[Eber123]

I must admit I haven't read every post in this conversation, but I think that parties in government (power) have the tendency to want to keep their position.

This brings them into a bad situation. On the one hand the environment has to be protected, meaning air emission kept clean or get clean. On the other side there are more people with older cars then owners of brand new cars with the latest technology. Changing laws and making car owning and using of older cars / vans (far) more expensive will not go down well with potential voters.

What to do? I don't know, providing tax incentives for buyers of new cars (again with latest technology), supporting electric cars?

Pension, Health sector, peace, clean environment, mobility etc. etc. etc. will be the huge challenges for the future.

Regards,
Eberhard

 

[Elmo3]

I’ve read some crap on here but this post takes the biscuit

Thank you. I don’t trust any of them to be acting in the interests of anyone other than themselves when it comes to these issues. Time will tell so enjoy the diesel Cali’s before they are taxed off the road!

 

[SheffieldSteel]

I'm curious as to why so many buy new Californias, especially given the outrageous cost for what is, after all, just a VW Camper. That first 3 years from new costs a fair whack of depreciation just to get that new car smell. So here I will spell out my case for a used Cali and allow other members to present their arguments for a new one (or indeed, some may wish to add support to my argument).

I just don't see the appeal of a new car. Is it the status of being able to afford the "ker-chink" of cash hitting the kerb as it drives out of the yard for the first time, £10k less valuable than it was thirty seconds ago and just ten minutes away from its first supermarket car park rash ? Perhaps it's the endless factory built-in failures and recalls that plague a new California, meaning it'll spend much of its early life at the Dealer's workshop ? Or is it the knowledge that those ridiculously expensive options will depreciate even faster than the car itself, leaving owners wondering whether they really needed the genuine faux leather rear view mirror surrounds with California motif that came with the optional Luxury Tack package.

If it's the assurance of a warranty that appeals then an extended warranty can easily be bought to cover a second-hand model.

Essentially the California hasn't changed since Westfalia produced the T4 California (LHD only) for VW some 20 years ago. When VW took over production of the Californiafrom Westfalia with the introduction of theT5 they struggled to improve on a design that had been perfected over many decades*, but still their marketing people managed to come up with a whole bunch of unnecessary options to justify a huge price hike. Brighter colours, slicker materials, electric everything. It certainly looked the part and in their bedazzlement no-one really noticed that nothing had actually changed.

In 2004 I bought a 2001 T4 California which I kept for 6 years then in 2010 I sold it for a 2007 T5 California which I kept for 8 years. Both were bought for a mere 50% of their new cost. Both lost nothing but inflation and were sold for what I originally paid for them. In both cases they had frustrated their original owners with problems within the warranty period, particularly the T5, whereas they spent little time in the workshop during my ownership.

I bought the T5 because the T4 engine only produced 102 BHP and the T5 with a tuning box produced twice that, otherwise I'd have happily kept the T4. It had the same layout as the T5 (or the T6) that Westfalia had perfected over many years. It carried 260,000kms when I sold it and it drove like new. It was very comfortabke to drive, it had the faimiliar captain's chairs, awning, table, cupboards, beds, sink, stove, fridge and storage layouts. Brandrup even sold a host of over-priced after-market gadgets for it, many of which they re-purposed for the later T5 and T6. The spring loaded roof never relied on hydraulics or electrics, it never caught its bellows in the canvas, never failed or asked to be returned to the workshop and it popped up or down with one hand in just seconds. The screen and buttons never failed, the roof never corroded, the parking heater worked and the 2.5TDi engine in the T4 was bullet proof. Of course the 2.5TDi engine in the T5 wasn't quite as robust and 2 litre unit in the T5.2 even less so, as VW attempted to minimise their parts catalogue by fitting a modified Golf engine. The jury's out on what surprises the T6 engines will bring.

So given the main function of a camper is to.....well, camp, choosing a new California over one from the last 20 years is not really going to bring about additional comforts. The instruments may be more modern and they may be nicer to drive with more safety features but the T4 would hold its own over a T6 when it came to pitching up and camping. Finally, the older ones are funkier with far more street cred.

Don't get me wrong. I'm glad so may folks buy new as they pay the massive depreciation that allows me to buy the same car for half the price three years later. I just wonder why they choose to be so generous to a complete stranger. The least I can do is make them a cup of tea.

*Westfalia was a very old camper conversion company in the German state of Westphalia that dated back almost to the last war. I onece visited their wonderful company museum that showed the evolution of the camper from it's humble beginnings in the early 50s. It was the best collection of campers I've ever seen. Unfortunately they went bankrupt in 2010 and sold the entire collection piece by piece for the princely sum of 200,000 euros, including selling an original 1953 T1 Camperbox with just 41 miles on the clock for 41,000 euros.

What a stupid question.
People buy based on their circumstances and what fits their requirements. Im on my third new one since 2014 simply because I've lived in three different countries and its financially better to sell and buy new.

UK 2014, sold after 14k, lost 4k GBP.
Swiss 2016, Sold after 60k, lost 10k CHF.

Not sure where the 10k loss you mention is when driving out if the showroom.

 

[SheffieldSteel]

Just to add. Mine is my daily car, boat tower, tip runner, house mover, bike carrier etc etc. Peace of mind knowing that it will start is worth the bit extra and if not then back it goes to VW.

 

[Rich B]

Caligraphy, any further insults you would like to throw at us idiots who buy new! Did you know there are no pockets in shrouds ! Its a bit like saying, what idiot lives in a big expensive house when they can live in a crumbling shack for a lot less.

 

[Meoncoast]

If people did not by new ones where would the second-hand ones come from?

 

[Melanie Day]

I got mine on this sites selling page!!

If people did not by new ones where would the second-hand ones come from?

Sent from my Pixel 2 using Tapatalk

 

[Flood51]

Personally I am glad I brought new, I got the spec I wanted and having just sold it easily at £5K less than I brought it I feel its been good value at £2K a year depreciation. I could not have rented it for our holidays at that cost. Nothing depreciates like a genuine Cali

 

[Taylor]

10 reasons to buy new;

1.) Because its new
2.) Because of warranty
3.) To choose exactly what you want
4.) Knowing history which is none
5.) 2nd hand prices nearly match new
6.) Because it smells new
7.) The latest euro 6 engines
8.) Latest safety tech
9.) Seeing your perfect brand new cali await you on he forecourt
10.) To annoy the OP

 

[SimonVW]

I’m buying used. I’ve got a fixed budget and thats what I can afford. I’m glad people can afford new ones so I can buy their used ones!