Oh my goodness ...

[Velma's Dad]

Has Putin voiced an opinion yet?

I read something earlier (may have been in The Times) that Russian media are crowing about the US's discomfiture. But behind the scenes, Russia/Taliban relations will be nuanced. It's being said that Russia is maintaining its Kabul embassy (as is China, no surprise there). But Russia still very nervous of Jihadist influence anywhere in south/central Asia including possible destabilisation of Uzebekistan. So... as always in that region, it's complicated.

 

[two-saabs]

History has taught us nothing. From Korea to Vietnam watching Vietnamese clinging to the side of helicopters only to be abandoned. To Afghanistan clinging to the side of cargo planes only to be abandoned. All the countries that participated are to blame. No particular administration, all of them have let these countries down. Seeing my friends being shipped home from Vietnam in coffins. Seeing troops being shipped home from Afghanistan in coffins. What did they give their lives for? We should all hang our heads in shame.

Agree... 5 million Vietnamese civilians murdered, compared to 60 thousand US soldiers... But yet no war crimes brought against the US, and the veterans are treated as the victims. For sure every life loss is terrible but there is a huge difference between civilians and soldiers.

And for what... Cheap Nike trainers? What were the US doing over there?

Of course the UK and many other European countries have their equally appalling legacies.

My general non-expert / armchair view is... Why leave your own country to fight a war somewhere else? To "liberate" the people? Funny how many of these evil enemies just happen to have something we want. And all those weapons are a bit part of the UK and US economies.

Isn't it a bit weird that we all happen to be born "the good guys" ? How convenient!

 

[Lancia037]

We went there to destroy Al-Qaeda, which we successfully did, and as a bi-product we fought back the Taliban and gave Afghans 20 years of relative freedom whereby they could enjoy going to school, democracy, starting a business, listen to music etc. That 20 years will not easily be forgotten and I suspect will cause real trouble for the Taliban when they try to assert control long-term (assuming they will be as ruthless as in the past).

There was no easy way out. I just hope any ideas of a civil war are quickly but to bed and the new leadership heavily compromises.

It's easy to compare the UK in Afghanistan with Vietnam etc, but it was not the same.

 

[two-saabs]

We went there to destroy Al-Qaeda, which we successfully did, and as a bi-product we fought back the Taliban and gave Afghans 20 years of relative freedom whereby they could enjoy going to school, democracy, starting a business, listen to music etc. That 20 years will not easily be forgotten and I suspect will cause real trouble for the Taliban when they try to assert control long-term (assuming they will be as ruthless as in the past).

There was no easy way out. I just hope any ideas of a civil war are quickly but to bed and the new leadership heavily compromises.

It's easy to compare the UK in Afghanistan with Vietnam etc, but it was not the same.

Never the same, that's clear, but there are similarities

 

[WelshGas]

The imposition of so-called democracy upon a country divided by tribal loyalties. The same in Iraq. If you want regime change then you have to be prepared for the long term consequences.

If you want to degrade a brutal regime from exporting their terrorist values then do it, but don't hang around.

We didn't. We went to get the perpetrators of 9/11. The population formed their own form of a democratic government and for the past 20 years enjoyed some form of human rights and freedoms we take for granted. Hopefully the core general population will retain a yearning for such things in the years to come.

I would have expected more women breaking down the fences surrounding Kabul airport as they are the ones who will truly suffer if things return to the 1990's.

 

[WelshGas]

Agree... 5 million Vietnamese civilians murdered, compared to 60 thousand US soldiers... But yet no war crimes brought against the US, and the veterans are treated as the victims. For sure every life loss is terrible but there is a huge difference between civilians and soldiers.

And for what... Cheap Nike trainers? What were the US doing over there?

Of course the UK and many other European countries have their equally appalling legacies.

My general non-expert / armchair view is... Why leave your own country to fight a war somewhere else? To "liberate" the people? Funny how many of these evil enemies just happen to have something we want. And all those weapons are a bit part of the UK and US economies.

Isn't it a bit weird that we all happen to be born "the good guys" ? How convenient!

I suggest reading a few history books if you are not sure why the USA were involved.

 

[Velma's Dad]

We didn't. We went to get the perpetrators of 9/11. The population formed their own form of a democratic government and for the past 20 years enjoyed some form of human rights and freedoms we take for granted. Hopefully the core general population will retain a yearning for such things in the years to come.

Yes of course the original strategic intent was to interdict AQ and hence reduce the threat of further attacks on US and its allies. BUT... after that was achieved - within the first six months culminating in the collapse of the Taliban by April 2002 - there was no coherent strategy for what should happen next. The US-led effort to craft a new Afghan regime emerged by default, with GW Bush calling for a "Marshall Plan-type reconstruction". The US focused its efforts on overseeing formation of a new government apparatus in Kabul but meanwhile in the provinces a protracted absence of basic human services and a security vacuum led to the re-emergence of violence from 2006 onwards, to which the US and NATO's response was to pour in counter-insurgency troops without any real notion of what, realistically, the end game would look like. The US and its allies - chiefly the UK - continued the surge/rinse/repeat cycle for the next decade while maintaining the fiction that the ANA could/would soon be equipped, trained and motivated to establish country-wide security and stability - something that the US+UK+others had been unable to do itself. Obama signalled the US intention to withdraw in 2014 and from then on the Taliban just had to bide their time. As Talib insurgents are reputed to have taunted their US counterparts: "You have the watches, but we have the time".

 

[two-saabs]

I suggest reading a few history books if you are not sure why the USA were involved.

My question was rhetorical, but who wrote those books?

 

[two-saabs]

My question was rhetorical, but who wrote those books?

I don't want to get in to all this though, it's an awful situation whatever the different views, millions of people suffer needlessly... I only came here to talk about camper vans!!

And that whole Alex Scott thread almost sent me running

 

[GrannyJen]

Yes of course the original strategic intent was to interdict AQ and hence reduce the threat of further attacks on US and its allies. BUT... after that was achieved - within the first six months culminating in the collapse of the Taliban by April 2002 - there was no coherent strategy for what should happen next. The US-led effort to craft a new Afghan regime emerged by default, with GW Bush calling for a "Marshall Plan-type reconstruction"".

A view also echoed by Joe Biden around the same time.

 

[Wildcamper]

If this report is true, it is the Express, that the PM of Pakistan supports the Taliban victory and maintaining that supporting the imposition of western culture is worse than slavery then any hope of a reasonable humanitarian government, as we envision it, is beyond reach. Lessons to be learnt and time to move on.

Pakistan’s PM likens Taliban’s victory to ending slavery

PAKISTAN'S Prime Minister sparked outrage when he said that the Taliban's victory in Afghanistan was like "breaking the shackles of slavery".

www.express.co.uk

 

[willwander]

To be clear,

I was not so much reeling from the consequences of Biden's statements, more the delivery.

I have never heard a so-called global statesman ever use so many "I" and "Me" in a delivery. Basically it's "all me, to hell with you" in the most trumpesque manner.

I am a simple person. If you bomb the crap out of a country in pursuit of your own ideology then you also confer upon yourself the responsibility of the aftermath. Any historian, not just me, could have explained the folly of destroying Iraq and interjecting so physically in Afghanistan, but then, ...

Well, I love America, I spent five happy years living, studying, researching and working there, but the shallowness of their acceptance of responsibility towards others beggars belief sometimes.

Agree Biden delivery was poor.
History of Afghan wars is fascinating, uk losing our 4th Afghan war, one disastrous cock up after another. It proves Aldous Huxley’s adage that the only thing we learn from history is that no one learns from history.

The great game continues to be played out, between Russia, USA, uk, and China, with Pakistan, Saudi and others pulling most of the Taliban strings.

 

[westfalia]

I've been following

 

[westfalia]

This news channel for a while, I like a differnt
prospective.

 

[willwander]

This news channel for a while, I like a differnt
prospective.

Indian news channel…India has big stake now lost influence in Afghanistan…hates Pakistan…everyone has an agenda.

 

[Joker 1299]

You can‘t impose democracy on anyone. Democracy is the will of the people. The people get what the people want - good or bad, in your opinion.

 

[westfalia]

Indian news channel…India has big stake now lost influence in Afghanistan…hates Pakistan…everyone has an agenda.

Although, you wont see this kind of reporting on the
UK drip fed, nicey nicey news.

 

[Amarillo]

You can‘t impose democracy on anyone. Democracy is the will of the people. The people get what the people want - good or bad, in your opinion.

Afghanistan has proved once again that imposed democracy is the greatest oxymoron.

 

[GrahamB]

If anyone happens to be interested in a closely-argued perspective on the geopolitical implications of all this, Michael Clarke the former DG of RUSI and past adviser to parliamentary defence and foreign affairs committees gives this analysis:

The Strategic Consequences of Western Defeat in Afghanistan

Amid the anger and emotion of the Afghan tragedy that so rapidly unfolded in August, it is easy to lose sight of the strategic issues at stake. The palpable humiliation of the United States and its…

tippingpoint2020s.com

[EDIT] Sorry I actually meant to link to Clarke's RUSI article, not his piece in Tipping Point. The RUSI article is more insightful on the US and UK's failures in Afghanistan since 2001:

Afghanistan and the UK’s Illusion of Strategy

The tragedy in Afghanistan offers a sobering story for the UK, as it embarks on its ‘Global Britain’ future in the 2020s.

rusi.org

This is the best analysis I have read - thanks for sharing.

 

[Velma's Dad]

Afghanistan has proved once again that imposed democracy is the greatest oxymoron.

Indeed. It assumes in the first place that people want a centralised state at all - but that's not the case with many (most?) Pashtuns who are the largest ethnic group especially in the rural south. It's been said frequently that all they require of the state is assisting in resolving disputes and imposing some kind of law and order. Sharia on the one hand and the Taliban on the other provide those last two requirements quite adequately, in their view.

I've never been to Afghanistan but have loads of colleagues who've worked there over the years with international agencies and NGOs. This week one of them sent a link to this collection of observations on life in the country. It's in the form of cartoons, but I'm told they provide real insights.

Afghanistan comics — Matt Bors

www.mattbors.com

 

[Vagophile]

This week one of them sent a link to this collection of observations on life in the country. It's in the form of cartoons, but I'm told they provide real insights.

Very interesting observations.

 

[speedialer]

We didn’t vote for Biden. We voted against Trump.
Similar to tories taking labour votes in the last election?

 

[Toothlessjon]

Just watching Biden waffling on.

How on earth has the most powerful nation in the world managed to be in a position where they swap Trump for Biden?

It's an embarrassment.

Maybe they didn’t…..

 

[staffie]

Trump pulled out of Paris and Afghanistan with barely a thought. To be fair Biden’s got some mess to clear up

Afghanistan has been a violent country for centuries. Intensely Tribal, they only unite when there is a foreign invader to be ejected. When Britain was the greatest power in the world it tried three times to conquer Afghanistan, with no success. (Before a snowflake storm hits me I'm not justifying these wars). The Russians tried the same thing, as did the Americans. All failed.
The 'Talban' are around 75000 strong. They are equipped with essentially light weapons, and have no air power. The Afghan army is around 300000 strong, with modern western provided equipment and an air force. If there was the will to fight the balance of power lies very much with them. The answer lies, as it did in Vietnam, with a succession of corrupt, puppet, western appointed leaders in whom the people have no faith. If it was the will of the people to resist the Taliban then it would be apparent, as in countries like Roumania. When and if this will emerges, there will be an uprising. I am not claiming that the majority of people want to be ruled by the Taliban, simply pointing out that they clearly don't think the alternative is much better.
Do the Taliban offer a threat to other countries? Possibly to Pakistan, where the border 'Tribal Zones' are almost part of Afghanistan already. To other countries? All the evidence says no.
Should we in the West be in the business of enforcing our values (no matter how enlightened they appear to us) on other sovereign states? That's the subject of another debate, but if the answer is yes then why Afghanistan? Why not China, Saudi Arabia, parts of Africa?
Is it because it appears to be a soft target? Clearly that's not true. Is it because of 9/11? 15 out of 19 hijackers were Saudi. Bin Laden was Saudi. The money was Saudi. Show me the Afghan connection.
There will be a period of abrogation of women's rights in Afghanistan. There will be a period of suppression of many of the rights we (used to) take for granted in the UK. None of this is welcome, but as it stands it has been accepted, or at least not actively resisted, by the population concerned. Perhaps we have inadvertently fostered a culture of dependence on foreign support and protection in a population who for centuries fought tooth and nail for what they believed in. More blood and money is not going to resolve this, indeed it will make it worse.

 

[AlisonF]

I would have expected more women breaking down the fences surrounding Kabul airport as they are the ones who will truly suffer if things return to the 1990's.

Even in the UK I would not feel comfortable doing that. I was terribly and openly descriminated against as a student, again as a graduate engineer, and sexually assualted by a colleague when working for a well known international company. None of this occured in countries with different laws / beliefs towards women.
I have struggled to stand up for myself in these situations - even parents can say ‘well why did you do x’…
I think you are being unfair to suggest women in Afghanistan should be at the gate protesting. They are more likely trying to hide to save their lives and that of their children.
Sorry, but this kind of post with so little understanding for how it is to be an abused women makes me so upset.