Oh my goodness ...

[GrannyJen]

Just watching Biden waffling on.

How on earth has the most powerful nation in the world managed to be in a position where they swap Trump for Biden?

It's an embarrassment.

 

[Ocean Spirit]

In fairness I'd swap Trump for a chimpanzee but yes....for a powerful nation to get Biden it's not good.

 

[Stu@rt]

Just watching Biden waffling on.

How on earth has the most powerful nation in the world managed to be in a position where they swap Trump for Biden?

It's an embarrassment.

Rock and a hard place. Bit like the UK 2019 general election eh?

 

[66tim99]

Just watching Biden waffling on.

How on earth has the most powerful nation in the world managed to be in a position where they swap Trump for Biden?

It's an embarrassment.

Trump pulled out of Paris and Afghanistan with barely a thought. To be fair Biden’s got some mess to clear up

 

[willwander]

Creepy Joe says he doesn’t want to pass it on to a fifth president (Kamala) when he resigns.

 

[WelshGas]

Easy to comment - What would you do?
Afghanistan has had 20 years to set up a democratic government and billions in western aid to help it do so.
Easy to keep sending someone else's sons and daughters overseas. Anyone here volunteering to take their place?

 

[66tim99]

Well I’m no military strategist but nor is Trump. Easy of course to criticise him in hindsight but he ignored his advisers and spoke to the Taliban without the government in the room, made a deal to release fighters, delegitimising the government and its army. I wouldn’t have done that.
There have been very few allied combat fatalities in Afghanistan for the last 2 years, their role was now to train, advise and support their military. Politically popular of course to withdraw troops, but the role of the military is to protect, defend and improve, which they have spent 20 years doing to great effect, at great cost. To withdraw was a choice, not because their mission was been accomplished, or their presence had become untenable, or they were no longer welcomed by the host government. Allied involvement in the country was perhaps a price worth paying long term for the stakes being played. To leave so abruptly, too early, disrespects the war effort, risks basic human rights like female education and corporal punishment in Afghanistan, and al quaeda terrorism around the world.

Easy to comment - What would you do?
Afghanistan has had 20 years to set up a democratic government and billions in western aid to help it do so.
Easy to keep sending someone else's sons and daughters overseas. Anyone here volunteering to take their place?

 

[WelshGas]

Well I’m no military strategist but nor is Trump. Easy of course to criticise him in hindsight but he ignored his advisers and spoke to the Taliban without the government in the room, made a deal to release fighters, delegitimising the government and its army. I wouldn’t have done that.
There have been very few allied combat fatalities in Afghanistan for the last 2 years, their role was now to train, advise and support their military. Politically popular of course to withdraw troops, but the role of the military is to protect, defend and improve, which they have spent 20 years doing to great effect, at great cost. To withdraw was a choice, not because their mission was been accomplished, or their presence had become untenable, or they were no longer welcomed by the host government. Allied involvement in the country was perhaps a price worth paying long term for the stakes being played. To leave so abruptly, too early, disrespects the war effort, risks basic human rights like female education and corporal punishment in Afghanistan, and al quaeda terrorism around the world.

You're correct about the role of the Military. But entering Afghanistan was not about regime change. If the Taliban had given up Al Qaeda as requested then they would have still been in power. However they did not and were therefore marginalised while the real Terrorists responsible for 9/11 were dealt with.
They are an extreme Islamic sect and are fighting a religious war . The general population were given the tools etc: to set up their own form of government. Now they have a choice.
Overall, very little armed conflict took place over the last few days as the Taliban reasserted their authority.
A lot has been said about women's rights etc: under the Taliban.The videos of the crowds at Kabul airport were very interesting.

 

[Wildcamper]

History has a story to tell on Afghanistan. In the19th Century the worlds greatest power (the UK) failed to control Afghanistan. Hundreds upon hundreds, maybe thousands, of soldiers died and were maimed. The Russians in the 1980s failed, now the USA and the UK again. We in the west tend to think that our version of democracy should be the way of the world. Unfortunately there are those areas that do not agree and to try and impost our thinking on others is always going to be difficult. In Afghanistan, for over 200 years, the western model has failed.

 

[Velma's Dad]

From my particular armchair... the reason for the Taliban marching into Kabul in a matter of days is because the ANA's morale completely collapsed when they woke up and discovered their air cover - the most crucial part of the Coalition's mission over the past couple of years - had been withdrawn, practically completely. Anyone who witnessed the rout of the Iraq defence force by the emergent ISIS in June 2014 will be fairly unsurprised at the phenomenon of a well-equipped and 'advised' military melting away.

'Withdrawal in contact' is one of the hardest types of military operation to undertake, but telling the enemy you're going to do it, in advance, is a recipe for disaster. The fact that the US and its allies are now scrambling around trying to clear the runway at KBL so they can land planes to get their own people out is gobsmackingly awful and is a US foreign policy f***-up of epic proportions, there's no getting away from it.

We can only hope that the Taliban will accept some meaningful level of humanitarian access by international agencies to assist the thousands of Afghans who will be displaced.

 

[Ozzy Pete]

History has taught us nothing. From Korea to Vietnam watching Vietnamese clinging to the side of helicopters only to be abandoned. To Afghanistan clinging to the side of cargo planes only to be abandoned. All the countries that participated are to blame. No particular administration, all of them have let these countries down. Seeing my friends being shipped home from Vietnam in coffins. Seeing troops being shipped home from Afghanistan in coffins. What did they give their lives for? We should all hang our heads in shame.

 

[blondebier]

Biden's statement last night couldn't have been clearer. Some people's lives are worth more than others.

Until humanity realises and accepts that all lives are of equal worth the same tragedies will repeat.

It is shameful.

 

[Wild Bob]

Just watching Biden waffling on.

How on earth has the most powerful nation in the world managed to be in a position where they swap Trump for Biden?

It's an embarrassment.

He is a Joke

 

[Ozzy Pete]

He is a Joke

Every administration that has anything to do with Afghanistan is a joke. That’s both UK and US.

 

[WelshGas]

Every administration that has anything to do with Afghanistan is a joke. That’s both UK and US.

Don't forget, Canada, Australia, France, Germany and the other countries too numerous to mention.
While we're at it, What would you have done?

 

[Ozzy Pete]

Don't forget, Canada, Australia, France, Germany and the other countries too numerous to mention.
While we're at it, What would you have done?

While we’re at it ,what would YOU have done. The US withdrawal of troops caused this, and nothing to do with Canada, Australia, France or Germany..or any other countries too numerous to mention. Afghan innocents who helped the coalition have been left to rot after being promised they wouldn’t.

 

[sidepod]

Here we go again, Jens latest grenade.

Camping anyone?

 

[Velma's Dad]

If anyone happens to be interested in a closely-argued perspective on the geopolitical implications of all this, Michael Clarke the former DG of RUSI and past adviser to parliamentary defence and foreign affairs committees gives this analysis:

The Strategic Consequences of Western Defeat in Afghanistan

Amid the anger and emotion of the Afghan tragedy that so rapidly unfolded in August, it is easy to lose sight of the strategic issues at stake. The palpable humiliation of the United States and its…

tippingpoint2020s.com

[EDIT] Sorry I actually meant to link to Clarke's RUSI article, not his piece in Tipping Point. The RUSI article is more insightful on the US and UK's failures in Afghanistan since 2001:

Afghanistan and the UK’s Illusion of Strategy

The tragedy in Afghanistan offers a sobering story for the UK, as it embarks on its ‘Global Britain’ future in the 2020s.

rusi.org

 

[Wildcamper]

Biden's statement last night couldn't have been clearer. Some people's lives are worth more than others.

Until humanity realises and accepts that all lives are of equal worth the same tragedies will repeat.

It is shameful.

Unfortunately the Taliban, and others, don't think all lives are equal and are unlikely to do so in the future.

 

[GrannyJen]

To be clear,

I was not so much reeling from the consequences of Biden's statements, more the delivery.

I have never heard a so-called global statesman ever use so many "I" and "Me" in a delivery. Basically it's "all me, to hell with you" in the most trumpesque manner.

I am a simple person. If you bomb the crap out of a country in pursuit of your own ideology then you also confer upon yourself the responsibility of the aftermath. Any historian, not just me, could have explained the folly of destroying Iraq and interjecting so physically in Afghanistan, but then, ...

Well, I love America, I spent five happy years living, studying, researching and working there, but the shallowness of their acceptance of responsibility towards others beggars belief sometimes.

 

[WelshGas]

While we’re at it ,what would YOU have done. The US withdrawal of troops caused this, and nothing to do with Canada, Australia, France or Germany..or any other countries too numerous to mention. Afghan innocents who helped the coalition have been left to rot after being promised they wouldn’t.

I don't know, not being in possession of all the facts and intelligence.
What I do know is that we went into Afghanistan to deal with Al Qaeda, not to enforce regime change. That was something the general population wanted, but obviously not enough to fight for it.
So, I've answered your question. Any chance of a reply to mine?

 

[blondebier]

From the BBC's fact check on Biden's speech... https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/58243158

At the outset of the conflict in 2001 when Mr Biden was a US senator, he outlined the long-term purpose of the American military intervention, saying: "Our hope is that we will see a relatively stable government in Afghanistan, one that… provides the foundation for future reconstruction of that country."

And again, in 2003 - in another quote, he said the "alternative to nation building is chaos, a chaos that churns out bloodthirsty warlords, drug traffickers and terrorists".

I wonder what made him change his mind?

 

[WelshGas]

To be clear,

I was not so much reeling from the consequences of Biden's statements, more the delivery.

I have never heard a so-called global statesman ever use so many "I" and "Me" in a delivery. Basically it's "all me, to hell with you" in the most trumpesque manner.

I am a simple person. If you bomb the crap out of a country in pursuit of your own ideology then you also confer upon yourself the responsibility of the aftermath. Any historian, not just me, could have explained the folly of destroying Iraq and interjecting so physically in Afghanistan, but then, ...

Well, I love America, I spent five happy years living, studying, researching and working there, but the shallowness of their acceptance of responsibility towards others beggars belief sometimes.

What ideology are you referring to in relation to Afghanistan?

 

[GrumpyGranddad]

Has Putin voiced an opinion yet?

 

[GrannyJen]

What ideology are you referring to in relation to Afghanistan?

The imposition of so-called democracy upon a country divided by tribal loyalties. The same in Iraq. If you want regime change then you have to be prepared for the long term consequences.

If you want to degrade a brutal regime from exporting their terrorist values then do it, but don't hang around.