Oil changes

[KernowLad]

I'm a little sceptical of massive service and oil change intervals on modern cars. I get the BMs oil changed every 10k miles (meant to be around 20k). What about a 180 Cali?
It seems to have used almost no oil and is almost 12k miles. Worth an early change?!

 

[calikev]

Yes I would. mine is done every year after about 6k. Might go a little longer after my service plan expires

 

[Stu]

I'm not a fan of LL servicing myself so I don't normally leave the oil in to the full term and change at the mid point so 12.5k for the Cali on variable schedule.

I might send a sample off for analysis as a matter of interest when I drain mine.

The oil is expensive though unless you get a deal from someone like Euro Car Parts when they have it on offer.

DPF equipped vehicles use the same fully synthetic regardless of LL or T&D servicing.

 

[Andresz]

I change oil and the filter every 15 000 kilometers. I do not believe in so called Long Life philosophy of 30 000 kms

 

[KernowLad]

Glad I'm not the only one then. I will get it booked in!

 

[philcod]

Is time a factor? we'll have only done 15k tops when 2 years is up - which is when VW are telling me the oil should be changed regardless of mileage, to comply with the warranty. Will the oil have degraded in 2 years?

 

[calikev]

I was told :crazy it may be wrong that the oil sender sends information to
The ecu periodically assesing the viscocity if it fall below a certain level it will
Bring the service light on .dont know how true it is but it sounds good :laugh2 :laugh2

 

[slowcoach65]

I've had my Cali from new. It's now 6 months old with 12,000 miles on the clock. It would be very costly for me to change the oil as suggested above. My (maybe naive) view is that if the service schedule says I don't need to change the oil, why should I; after all, it's under warranty

Andy

 

[Andresz]

I've had my Cali from new. It's now 6 months old with 12,000 miles on the clock. It would be very costly for me to change the oil as suggested above. My (maybe naive) view is that if the service schedule says I don't need to change the oil, why should I; after all, it's under warranty

Andy

I would put that way:
Compare the money which you paid for the new vehicle with the cost of oil exchange and think it through.

 

[Stu]

There are the two types of servicing -

T&D - Time and Distance so typically annually or 10k miles whichever comes first and these would previously have used lesser quality lubricants.

LL - Long Life which is dynamic in so much as there is an oil quality sensor which will adjust the intervals accordingly, for the California FL I think it's a maximum 25k miles or 2 years whichever comes first.

New oils are fully synthetic and Low SAPS for use with DPF. I'm curious to know the state of this oil after a mid term change so I think I will send a sample to our lab for testing when I drain mine. I'll need to dig out the specs for the oil - Unless anyone knows the Base Number for new 504/507 oil specs?? :mrgreen:

 

[Dibz]

I used to run my T5 van on long life servicing. I do a lot of short journeys and not a lot of miles overall and the van always told me to change before 2 years was up. The short journeys being the main killer of the oil I think.

I'm willing to trust the gizmotronics as I don't think these engines are particularly hard on oil or thirsty, and the sensor will be pretty pessimistic. I've previously noticed the difference when the oil is getting (or should that be way beyond) past it's best and decided to change it on cars, but the van always pinged up the service indicator before I thought it needed doing on the van. Naturally, I checked the level and kept driving for a while longer to test the theory finding the van would start to feel worse so did get it changed but whether that is psychosomatic I don't know!!

 

[MisterTea]

I used to run my 1971 air cooled VW transporter for 6000 miles and then replace the oil. It was simple oil back in the day iirc sae30 single visc natural oil. That stuff was good so long as you looked after the engine temp and kept changing regularly. Don't forget the engine was very simple engineering. it didn't even use an oil filter. The the only sensor was a pressure sensor, to switch red light on if dangerously low oil pressure. The oil was simple, it changed visc as it got hotter.. And couldn't cope with being boiled.

Today's oils are completely different, and the engines are massively engineered with all sorts of instrumentation and sensors that feed info to the ECU. The computing power in these machines puts a laptop PC to shame, and the technology used to develop these synth oils is very reliable science... The engineers are motivated to make engines as reliable and simple to maintain as possible.

Why we still feel that 40 years later the latest engineering science and technology isn't to be trusted, I don't know.

 

[Andresz]

I used to run my 1971 air cooled VW transporter for 6000 miles and then replace the oil. It was simple oil back in the day iirc sae30 single visc natural oil. That stuff was good so long as you looked after the engine temp and kept changing regularly. Don't forget the engine was very simple engineering. it didn't even use an oil filter. The the only sensor was a pressure sensor, to switch red light on if dangerously low oil pressure. The oil was simple, it changed visc as it got hotter.. And couldn't cope with being boiled.

Today's oils are completely different, and the engines are massively engineered with all sorts of instrumentation and sensors that feed info to the ECU. The computing power in these machines puts a laptop PC to shame, and the technology used to develop these synth oils is very reliable science... The engineers are motivated to make engines as reliable and simple to maintain as possible.

Why we still feel that 40 years later the latest engineering science and technology isn't to be trusted, I don't know.

Most of the car repair technicians which I spoken with, were claiming that T4 engine runs 3-4 times more mileage without being worn out than T5 engine....

Saying that, I think that today's technology do not necessary focuses on the sustainability, it is more focused on recycling, ecology (well what is the ecology if new engine runs 300 0000 km, and old 800 000 km) and frequent replacement.
I think the Long Life scheme in oïl exchange is the part of the philosophy.

You do not see that many T4 on the roads of the western Europe anymore.
Do you think they were scrapped in junk yards?
WRONG, go to Poland and see: there is thousands of them there.
All have been happily imported from Germany and other western countries and all are still up and running in hard everyday exploitation, including the 20 years old ones. I do not think this is necessarily going to happen to the T5s.

 

[beardie]

I think the T4s have gone to the place where labour costs of maintenance are lower.
In Germany incomes are high enough to afford a T5 and labour rates for maintenance are high.
In Poland the cost of keeping a vehicle on the road is lower and they can't afford a T5.
I think it's economics at work!
If T4s are more reliable than T5s then that may delay some moving from T4 to T5 but the rest of the vehicle will eventually fall to bits. Unless VW reliability compared to the competition is falling then the T5s will end up on Poland when the rest of Europe gets shinny T6s

 

[Andresz]

I think the T4s have gone to the place where labour costs of maintenance are lower.
In Germany incomes are high enough to afford a T5 and labour rates for maintenance are high.
In Poland the cost of keeping a vehicle on the road is lower and they can't afford a T5.
I think it's economics at work!
If T4s are more reliable than T5s then that may delay some moving from T4 to T5 but the rest of the vehicle will eventually fall to bits. Unless VW reliability compared to the competition is falling then the T5s will end up on Poland when the rest of Europe gets shinny T6s

Yes you are right, but only to some extend.
Because technically speaking if anyone in Poland who knows the subject is asked if he prefers 2003 T5 or 2002 T4 with the same price, the answer will be T4.
Unles the person is really fasion-oriented.


Also this phenomenon of old vans is mostly with VW T4. The average age of cars in Poland, including the Vans, is 8 years if I am not mistaken. I think in these days according to my observation, the average age of cars in Poland is lower than in France, where I am based.
And you will not see many old Ford Transits or Renault Traffic in Poland.

And yes, if somebody owning a VW California worth 50 000 BP thinks that exchanging oïl every 15000 km is too expensive for him, I would tend to agree that the price of maintenance is rocketing too high. Isn't it the case that because this is every 30k km rather than 15k km we will double the price of oïl exchange? In that case, where is the economy?

In the end of the day this is very simple operation, and my guess is that the cost of manufacturing a liter of engine oïl is not that much more than manufacturing a liter of petrol.

I had 11 years old T4 when I sold it, and there was no trace of rust underneath her. I have 5 years old Suzuki Grand Vitara (bought new) and it is all red underneath, both exploited in the same conditions.
So age is not the only factor.


I fact when I was searching for a campervan in summer last year I was considering both T4 or T5, with preference on T4, as naturally less expensive. However I did not succeed in buying T4 because the prices of California T4 in France were much exceeding comparable T5. So finally I ended up in T5. T4 were very old and very expensive. Than I think this is a reflection of the difference between the 2 models.

 

[slowcoach65]

With my forecasted mileage of 20-25K miles, sure I should stay with VW recommended long-life service schedule :?:

http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rc...=9OJH1zr2Wz76sXm9zGyIig&bvm=bv.45645796,d.d2k

Andy

 

[KernowLad]

There are the two types of servicing -

T&D - Time and Distance so typically annually or 10k miles whichever comes first and these would previously have used lesser quality lubricants.

LL - Long Life which is dynamic in so much as there is an oil quality sensor which will adjust the intervals accordingly, for the California FL I think it's a maximum 25k miles or 2 years whichever comes first.

New oils are fully synthetic and Low SAPS for use with DPF. I'm curious to know the state of this oil after a mid term change so I think I will send a sample to our lab for testing when I drain mine. I'll need to dig out the specs for the oil - Unless anyone knows the Base Number for new 504/507 oil specs?? :mrgreen:

Now that IS taking it seriously!!

 

[Stu]

Now that IS taking it seriously!!

Lubrication is a serious business :mrgreen:

My usual fodder is this kind of thing -

 

[Bigbud]

Jesus that's big :-D marine I presume? Is the block one piece cast?

I'm a fan of changing early, motorbike engines seem to last much longer

 

[Stu]

Jesus that's big :-D marine I presume? Is the block one piece cast?

Some of them are even bigger than that, you can stand inside one of the cylinders on top of a piston.

The engines are fabricated not cast and have removable liners etc. Generally built under licence at the shipyard to designs from MAN B&W, Wartsilla and MHI. These are 2 Stroke and run on Heavy Fuel Oil most have a shaft speed of < 100 rpm, perhaps around 92 rpm. The current requirement to save money and with an over supply of vessels in almost all categories means these guys now run their engines at power levels much lower than they were ever designed (often between 10 - 25% of the Max Continuous Rating) and this brings some quite difficult challenges for the lubricant.

Changing oil in the manner we discuss here (at circa half the recommended intervals) is perhaps an old skool approach that does not do credit to the qualities of modern lubricants however a significant part of my day job is Used Oil Analysis for Condition Based Monitoring and I see first hand the damage caused to engines from decreasing lubricant quality when in service especially when laden with soot deposits. Equally the Analysis can indicate that the product is in good condition and fit for further and continued use so hence my thoughts of sending a sample to the lab.

A good way to freshen your oil is by top up. What I mean by this is that it is actually good for your engine to burn some oil so that you then top up the amount used and replenish the properties of the lubricant. Often if the oil is showing signs of deterioration I will tell my customers to drain perhaps 30% - 50% of the oil charge and replace with new to freshen the lubricant.

I'm not sure if it's still the case but VAG used to fill with Castrol from the factory.

We also lubricate The Worlds Largest Containership CMA CGM Marco Polo

 

[Californiaman]

Both very impressive - both the huge block and the floating city. I am amazed by engineering on that scale; it also scares the life out of me - I can't comprehend how it all works!

 

[Andresz]

With my forecasted mileage of 20-25K miles, sure I should stay with VW recommended long-life service schedule :?:

http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rc...=9OJH1zr2Wz76sXm9zGyIig&bvm=bv.45645796,d.d2k

Andy

For me the answer for the dilemma between the classic and LL regime is in the own VW conditions given above, namely:

LongLife Regime.
To obtain the most benefit from the LongLife service regime, the car should to be generally driven in a style/condition of use listed below:
• Mainly longer distance journeys
• Limited number of cold starts, engine is kept at operating temperature over a longer period of time.
• Daily mileage above approx. 25 miles.
• Constant speed.
• Vehicle used regularly.


The above is not likely to fullfill in most applications

AND

With the LongLife service regime it could be anywhere between 9,000 miles or 12 months up to a maximum of 20,000* miles or 24 months, depending on the way the car is driven and/or its operating environment.
These engines use built-in sensors that continually monitor the oil quality, making it possible to enjoy reliable and confident motoring for up to a maximum of 20,000* miles or 24 months (whichever occurs first).

So it is not necessary 20000 miles and only under special conditions.

For me it is a time bomb. You run a car in which any time the alarm of used oïl may occur. You never know when it is going to happen, and when it happen it means that the oïl is already deteriorated.
What if for a various reasons you need to drive another 3000 miles before the actual oïl exchange (you are away from workshop, you or workshop has no appointment time available.

I would say this is surely Long Life for the engine oïl, not necessarly Long Life for the engine itself.

 

[KernowLad]

Now that IS taking it seriously!!

Lubrication is a serious business :mrgreen:

My usual fodder is this kind of thing -

Yikes!!

Just de-wintered our wee two stroke Mercury 60. Started first time; ideal!

 

[Stu]

What should be borne in mind with manufacturers offering extended intervals is they are generally derived from the requirement to offer reduced running costs to owners and fleet operators - Remember to sell into a competitive fleet market the buyers will compare term running costs which will of course need to include routine servicing.

So put simply if the manufacturer can offer extended intervals of up to 25k miles then that's potentially 2.5 times cheaper than 10k T&D servicing.

 

[Andresz]

What should be borne in mind with manufacturers offering extended intervals is they are generally derived from the requirement to offer reduced running costs to owners and fleet operators - Remember to sell into a competitive fleet market the buyers will compare term running costs which will of course need to include routine servicing.

So put simply if the manufacturer can offer extended intervals of up to 25k miles then that's potentially 2.5 times cheaper than 10k T&D servicing.

Stu
I 100% agree, for me the LL regime is purely commercially driven, not technical.

LLO equals SLE. (sometimes)

- LLO Long Life Oil
- SLE Short Life Engine
- :mrgreen: