What constitutes a short journey?

[rich11235]

Anything that doesn’t get the temp gauge up to 90C by the time you park up. But not just short journeys can clog up DPF, sustained running at low speeds/engine load even with engine warmed up can be problematic. So if stuck in traffic for a long time best turn the engine off (or let stop start do it’s thing)

 

[Tarquers]

I am less worried about the DPF than the EGR. I get the theory but putting exhaust gases back into the engine just strikes me as asking for problems. Have read some interesting reports on changing the map to stop the EGR from opening once the engine is warm, seems like the best compromise for long term engine health.

part of my concern is we are buying this van as a keeper, if it was a lease I knew I was going to get rid of in a few years time I wouldn’t worry but the idea of dropping a significant amount of cash on a vehicle I can’t use for every trip does not sound like the most sensible choice I can make.

 

[HowieDog]

Everyone will have a different idea, our choice is never to use our Beach for under 20 miles.

We only live a mile or so from the beach so I’m hardly going to drive 10 miles the wrong way when we head down with out paddle boards . The Cali gets a good run pretty often otherwise.

 

[BeagleMum]

We only live a mile or so from the beach so I’m hardly going to drive 10 miles the wrong way when we head down with out paddle boards . The Cali gets a good run pretty often otherwise.

We live a mile from the beach, no way would we consider driving the Cali for a mile.

 

[WelshGas]

I am less worried about the DPF than the EGR. I get the theory but putting exhaust gases back into the engine just strikes me as asking for problems. Have read some interesting reports on changing the map to stop the EGR from opening once the engine is warm, seems like the best compromise for long term engine health.

part of my concern is we are buying this van as a keeper, if it was a lease I knew I was going to get rid of in a few years time I wouldn’t worry but the idea of dropping a significant amount of cash on a vehicle I can’t use for every trip does not sound like the most sensible choice I can make.

Well I've done 100 K miles on 1 EGR. I had the EGR changed at 900 miles due to an electrical fault in it and since then No Problems.
Blanking Off the EGR valve on the T5/5.1 was done by some but it seems less so on the T6 and the T6.1 with all the additional Emissions equipment, unto you. Could end up causing more problems than you hope to solve. Also it will have an effect on emissions. I don't know if they measure that in your country but these emission tests are getting more sophisticated. Hope your a gambling man.

 

[Tarquers]

Well I've done 100 K miles on 1 EGR. I had the EGR changed at 900 miles due to an electrical fault in it and since then No Problems.
Blanking Off the EGR valve on the T5/5.1 was done by some but it seems less so on the T6 and the T6.1 with all the additional Emissions equipment, unto you. Could end up causing more problems than you hope to solve. Also it will have an effect on emissions. I don't know if they measure that in your country but these emission tests are getting more sophisticated. Hope your a gambling man.

I am not talking about blanking it off. appreciate the EGR is useful in bringing the engine up to temperature faster, which it does, but thereafter, I would prefer to not be throwing carbon and various other nasties back into the engine. An engine that I am hoping will last me a very long time. Police here are aggressive in mobile testing, wow bet it’s anyone whose engine smokes.

Worth pointing out the UK MOT test (and in (insert country here) )is conducted with a closed EGR, i.e., at idle so it’s a moot point, the presence or not of the EGR is not tested. As to gambling, it seems we are all gambling that a crazy technology that is the automotive equivalent of eating your own faeces is going to be great in the long run, and having to decide if the vehicle we own should be driven a “short” distance does make the question of fit for purpose relevant.

nothing I have read here or in any other post gives me confidence in diesels in general in the long run (and I am not looking to bash diesel), but like the warranty on electric car batteries, if we are forced as consumers to have these “solutions” imposed on us, surely we should have some guarantee other than the guarantee of a £2k bill at around 10 years.

I write this without losing sight of the lucky position I am in to be able to choose to buy what is ultimately a leisure vehicle which will carry me and my family to play with other toys we are lucky enough to have and to provide us with leisure time for hopefully a very long time, but it would be nice to do so without having the doubt in the back of my mind before turning the key every time.

My conclusion is that (if I don’t cancel the diesel order and pop across to Germany to pick up an overpriced TSI model) I will go for a gentle remap that will limit the EGR engagement to the warm up scenario only, treat the van to regular oil changes, then just use the van for what I bought it for, the sheer pleasure of driving and worry about it all in 5 years when the extended warranty runs out! Each to their own, but I feel confident I have at least done my homework and I am making my own decision. Feel free to ask me in 10 years if I got it wrong or right.

 

[rich11235]

I am not talking about blanking it off. appreciate the EGR is useful in bringing the engine up to temperature faster, which it does, but thereafter, I would prefer to not be throwing carbon and various other nasties back into the engine. An engine that I am hoping will last me a very long time. Police here are aggressive in mobile testing, wow bet it’s anyone whose engine smokes.

Worth pointing out the UK MOT test (and in (insert country here) )is conducted with a closed EGR, i.e., at idle so it’s a moot point, the presence or not of the EGR is not tested. As to gambling, it seems we are all gambling that a crazy technology that is the automotive equivalent of eating your own faeces is going to be great in the long run, and having to decide if the vehicle we own should be driven a “short” distance does make the question of fit for purpose relevant.

nothing I have read here or in any other post gives me confidence in diesels in general in the long run (and I am not looking to bash diesel), but like the warranty on electric car batteries, if we are forced as consumers to have these “solutions” imposed on us, surely we should have some guarantee other than the guarantee of a £2k bill at around 10 years.

I write this without losing sight of the lucky position I am in to be able to choose to buy what is ultimately a leisure vehicle which will carry me and my family to play with other toys we are lucky enough to have and to provide us with leisure time for hopefully a very long time, but it would be nice to do so without having the doubt in the back of my mind before turning the key every time.

My conclusion is that (if I don’t cancel the diesel order and pop across to Germany to pick up an overpriced TSI model) I will go for a gentle remap that will limit the EGR engagement to the warm up scenario only, treat the van to regular oil changes, then just use the van for what I bought it for, the sheer pleasure of driving and worry about it all in 5 years when the extended warranty runs out! Each to their own, but I feel confident I have at least done my homework and I am making my own decision. Feel free to ask me in 10 years if I got it wrong or right.

My job is designing Diesel engines - they have been eating their own for 20 odd years now. Yes, EGR systems do go wrong, but nine times out of ten it is short journeys or lots of in traffic/light load that kills them. The UK mot test is free acceleration against the engines inertia (not idle) but it is only looking at smoke and if your DPF is intact it would be impossible to fail. EGR is not used to reduce smoke (on the contrary), it is used for NOx reduction (oxides of nitrogen). Any van which is Euro 6 will have SCR (using adblue) as well as EGR to control NOx. And EGR is not used to bring the engine up to temperature - in some cases you can’t put too much EGR into the engine when cold as it causes misfire

 

[66tim99]

My job is designing Diesel engines - they have been eating their own for 20 odd years now. Yes, EGR systems do go wrong, but nine times out of ten it is short journeys or lots of in traffic/light load that kills them. The UK mot test is free acceleration against the engines inertia (not idle) but it is only looking at smoke and if your DPF is intact it would be impossible to fail. EGR is not used to reduce smoke (on the contrary), it is used for NOx reduction (oxides of nitrogen). Any van which is Euro 6 will have SCR (using adblue) as well as EGR to control NOx. And EGR is not used to bring the engine up to temperature - in some cases you can’t put too much EGR into the engine when cold as it causes misfire

Thanks. So you avoid short/light load journeys in your California?

 

[Scoobz1]

My job is designing Diesel engines - they have been eating their own for 20 odd years now. Yes, EGR systems do go wrong, but nine times out of ten it is short journeys or lots of in traffic/light load that kills them. The UK mot test is free acceleration against the engines inertia (not idle) but it is only looking at smoke and if your DPF is intact it would be impossible to fail. EGR is not used to reduce smoke (on the contrary), it is used for NOx reduction (oxides of nitrogen). Any van which is Euro 6 will have SCR (using adblue) as well as EGR to control NOx. And EGR is not used to bring the engine up to temperature - in some cases you can’t put too much EGR into the engine when cold as it causes misfire

How do you manage this : "I would prefer to not be throwing carbon and various other nasties back into the engine" ?

 

[rich11235]

My job is designing Diesel engines - they have been eating their own for 20 odd years now. Yes, EGR systems do go wrong, but nine times out of ten it is short journeys or lots of in traffic/light load that kills them. The UK mot test is free acceleration against the engines inertia (not idle) but it is only looking at smoke and if your DPF is intact it would be impossible to fail. EGR is not used to reduce smoke (on the contrary), it is used for NOx reduction (oxides of nitrogen). Any van which is Euro 6 will have SCR (using adblue) as well as EGR to control NOx

How do you manage this : "I would prefer to not be throwing carbon and various other nasties back into the engine" ?

Well, anything from Euro 5 onwards will be taking most of the EGR from after the DPF so all of the carbon (soot) has been taken out. Prior to that; with great difficulty

 

[Tarquers]

Well, anything from Euro 5 onwards will be taking most of the EGR from after the DPF so all of the carbon (soot) has been taken out. Prior to that; with great difficulty

Am no expert but thought the DPF was introduced to handle the increase in particulate matter created by the EGR? Was under the impression that the EGR fed back in before the turbo?

Not doubting your knowledge but this is the first time I have heard this. trying to understand how the EGR manages to clog up if it is supplied with air from after the DPF?

Am no expert but thought the DPF was introduced to handle the increase in particulate matter created by the EGR? Was under the impression that the EGR fed back in before the turbo?

Not doubting your knowledge but this is the first time I have heard this. trying to understand how the EGR manages to clog up if it is supplied with air from after the DPF?

@rich11235 you sent me off for more research and seems I am wrong and right. Interested to know your views on the van Engines, but I found this reference:

“At high engine rpm or load, the visible high pressure EGR valve slowly closes and the system switches to the low pressure EGR.

The high pressure EGR gasses are taken before the turbo. The low pressure EGR gasses are tapped after the DPF, through a filter, a cooler, and then recycled back into the intake path right before the turbo.”

Still doesn’t change the situation that short journeys are bad I guess!

 

[rich11235]

Am no expert but thought the DPF was introduced to handle the increase in particulate matter created by the EGR? Was under the impression that the EGR fed back in before the turbo?

Not doubting your knowledge but this is the first time I have heard this. trying to understand how the EGR manages to clog up if it is supplied with air from after the DPF?


@rich11235 you sent me off for more research and seems I am wrong and right. Interested to know your views on the van Engines, but I found this reference:

“At high engine rpm or load, the visible high pressure EGR valve slowly closes and the system switches to the low pressure EGR.

The high pressure EGR gasses are taken before the turbo. The low pressure EGR gasses are tapped after the DPF, through a filter, a cooler, and then recycled back into the intake path right before the turbo.”

Still doesn’t change the situation that short journeys are bad I guess!

I think you’ve found out the answer. And DPFs were brought in to reduce particulate (soot, smoke, mainly carbon) down to tiny levels (better than some petrol cars) not really connected to the use of EGR. For many diesel vehicles (and gasolines with GPF) there’s more particulate coming off the brakes and tyres than from the tailpipe. That’s why anyone who removes/deletes the DPF is an ar*e in my view

 

[Vantastic2]

In the 7 years of having our Cali i can say that if you do short journeys the DPF will come on . We had an unfortunate time visiting my Mum in Hospital. Diesels usually take around 4 miles to warm up to normal temp (90 deg), we were doing 5 mile round trip per day,7 days a wk for a while so engine cold on arrival ( and was Winter ) ! Then DPF came on, but don't worry a good blast on a duel carriage way following the vehicle manual did cleared it !
That was the only time i have seen this happen. If your not use to Diesels with DPF it is a bit of a shock when it 'burns' off the muck in filter, smells like a sort of burnt garden waste, rotten eggs smell?

 

[Vantastic2]

Have the extended warranty chucked in, so hope for the best I guess. stop-start by the same token can’t help much, so I guess it’s wait and see. For me personally I would have chosen petrol if it was still an option. For that I will join @Borris on the naughty step no doubt!

No NO petrol with vans, Diesel has the ' torque ' for pulling power !

 

[rich11235]

In the 7 years of having our Cali i can say that if you do short journeys the DPF will come on . We had an unfortunate time visiting my Mum in Hospital. Diesels usually take around 4 miles to warm up to normal temp (90 deg), we were doing 5 mile round trip per day,7 days a wk for a while so engine cold on arrival ( and was Winter ) ! Then DPF came on, but don't worry a good blast on a duel carriage way following the vehicle manual did cleared it !
That was the only time i have seen this happen. If your not use to Diesels with DPF it is a bit of a shock when it 'burns' off the muck in filter, smells like a sort of burnt garden waste, rotten eggs smell?

Vantastic, you describe exactly what potentially kills DPFs and EGR; lots of short journeys/low load. Shouldn’t really smell of eggs unless some sulphur’s got in somewhere from either the fuel or the oil. Pump diesel is ULS - were you using the right oil? (Needs to be low SAPS - low sulphur)

 

[Lightning]

No NO petrol with vans, Diesel has the ' torque ' for pulling power !

The 204 TSI has more torque than the 150 TDI.

 

[Tarquers]

Well issue decided itself today with a newly available 150 4Motion beach which I happily relieved the dealer of. 5 year extended warranty with written confirmation the DPF is included. €5,000 cheaper than a 3 year old petrol and immediately available decided it.

 

[Vantastic2]

Vantastic, you describe exactly what potentially kills DPFs and EGR; lots of short journeys/low load. Shouldn’t really smell of eggs unless some sulphur’s got in somewhere from either the fuel or the oil. Pump diesel is ULS - were you using the right oil? (Needs to be low SAPS - low sulphur)

Serviced regularly by VW dealer, might be my nose not good at what the smell is ? very difficult to describe, burnt ash smell ? but in all the years of having our Cali never had problems with DPF and EGR !
Have had Diesels since 1990 and noticed improvements over those years, VW have improved on EGR, we had 2 failures with 2 cars under warranty in the years around 2000-2009. At mo NO Cali, it was written off so running around in Skoda Karoq 1.6 TDI. Because of lockdown and can't get about ,will have to see what the future holds and maybe another Cali but we will be looking at a beach next time.
Before 'she died 'we had over 45000 miles of wonderful adventures.
To note: it was serviced a wk before the accident and what an improvement made on it's performance, VW had not changed air or fuel filters in 7 years ! we had our mechanic neighbour to service the Cali incl new Cambelt and water pump ( pump showing signs of wear ) oil and filter changed to VW specification !

 

[Vantastic2]

The 204 TSI has more torque than the 150 TDI.

Of course, but is it worth paying for the extra torque in insurance and running costs?
Everyone's choice of what one wants

 

[Lightning]

Of course, but is it worth paying for the extra torque in insurance and running costs?
Everyone's choice of what one wants

I’m not convinced the diesel is cheaper to run long term. The TSI doesn’t have all the complexity of the emissions systems or the Webasto. The MPG is lower, the torque is fine, it just means it changes down earlier on hills.
Having driven both I think it’s nicer to drive, the TSI engine is the same as that used in the Golf so Its well proven. If I was towing or if I had 4WD I would prefer a diesel but I wouldn’t swap mine for one.

 

[Tarquers]

I’m not convinced the diesel is cheaper to run long term. The TSI doesn’t have all the complexity of the emissions systems or the Webasto. The MPG is lower, the torque is fine, it just means it changes down earlier on hills.
Having driven both I think it’s nicer to drive, the TSI engine is the same as that used in the Golf so Its well proven. If I was towing or if I had 4WD I would prefer a diesel but I wouldn’t swap mine for one.

If I had the choice, TSI over TDI, driving characteristics and fear of EGR/DPF are the prime reasons. One of the most fun vehicles I ever owned was a Chevy Astro AWD which I made into a desert camper. 4.3L petrol that was so slow, but just nice to drive.

Second hand prices for TSIs in Germany are mad at the moment, a low mileage 2018 Ocean is up for €74k. Opportunistic dealer or genuine demand? Time will tell.